American Women

[CBGBConnisur]

Oh another thing I think it might me more entertaining to have sex with vampire than with an *b*itch like you USBabe.

[CBGBConnisur]

USBabe you said

"But on the other hand, if you compare the "average" middle-aged American woman with the "average" middle-aged European woman, the American woman frequently looks much younger. Sun is very damaging and aging to skin (as is smoking, which Europeans do a lot more than Americans). "

What a bunch of bullshit!!! The average middle aged American lady more attractive than a middle aged European lady???? Christie Brinkley almost 50?? I'm sure a plastic surgeon had something to do with it. If you want to meet a poor plastic surgeon, go to Europe. Plastic surgery in Europe is rare. Okay, what about Sofia Loren??? She's much older and seems to defy age. One of things I've noticed about Europeans is that they often look young for their age, especially the French, they defy aging better than anyone in the West. While in Paris I met a women who I thought was 25, she turned out to be 40!!! As far as Americans being healthier than Europeans, please explain this: almost 35 million people in the States don't have access to healthcare!!! Also the HIV rate in the US is twice that of the European Union and four times that of Canada!!!Uh huh sure whatever. Oh yeah Lennox Lewis, he's European, and he kicked the crap out of Mike Tyson!!

Another thing to ponder, what about this discussion board? There is a whole topic dedicated to the subject of American women in the WSG, much of it seems to be complaints about them.

[Joe Zop]

Amen Dickhead -- CBGB, c'mon!

USbabe -- absolutely, I'd rather travel elsewhere. I've had American culture stuffed down my throat my entire life, and it's like going to a restaurant where there's only one thing on the menu. Might be great, but you yearn for something different. I dearly love immersing myself in different scenarios and cultures because I learn a lot about and can better appreciate my place in the world. And one of the things travel does is gives you a sense of context for what happens around you -- you can see other perspectives and approaches, which is precisely why a lot of guys here have are complaining about the meal that's constantly set before them.

I agree with you absolutely that there's a power inequity in many countries in terms of economics, but there's more to the equation than that. Clearly none of us are advocating mistreatment of women, or wives committing ritual suicide on the death of their spouses or any of that. But relationships in other countries are simply very often founded on different foundations. Yes, in places it may be based on a male-dominated societal model, but it's also present in various places where matriarchy is strong. Some of it is purely and simply a core understanding of how others ought to be treated, and, frankly, this is where things in this country too often fall short.

Let me give you an example. One of my best friends had his marriage of twelve years fall apart a little over a year ago. Fine, that happens, and he wasn't always a saint, nor was she. I'd personally not want to be married to either of them, though they're both my good friends. But here's the part that was absolutely galling -- she signed a year-long lease on an apartment, moved out, and only then told him she was going, and that she wasn't really sure whether it was permanent or not -- she wanted to get back together with someone she'd had a fling with long ago when she was in the peace corps, and she wanted my friend to not only be okay with that, but to basically wait until she figured out whether or not she was coming back. She -- get this -- forbade him to see anyone else while she was gone, and got very upset with him (and with me, I might add, when I advised him to tell her to take a flying leap) when he wouldn't agree to put his life on hold while she basically decided his future. He pressed her to set a shorter timeline, saying that a year was just not reasonable, which she refused to do, and then basically said, fine, it's over, I'm not going to agree to give you permission to make me a cuckhold dangling on a string.

(I should note that this friend's first wife -- another friend, now dead, another dear and wacky woman -- cornered me many years ago and asked me point-blank what I would do in her position. Her position at the time was knowing that the two above were deeply involved in each other. I said to her that if it were me I'd give him an ultimatum and if it weren't heeded, I'd change the locks and throw the bum out. She changed the locks the next day.)

So here we are a couple of months ago, a year later in the process. They are divorced, he's dating, her old flame turned out to be the same immature idiot he was when they were in Tonga, and she's filled with bitterness at my friend, who she holds responsible for the profound emptiness and loneliness that now fills her life, because he was unreasonable. Me, I get to listen to her cry about it and not only not understand what went wrong, but still be unable to comprehend that the whole process wasn't all completely about her.

I have seen this exact same kind of behavior time and time again from various female friends, who have thrown away men who these women clearly acknowledge are the loves of their lives over the most idiotic kinds of things -- everything from one guy having the temerity to actually want to get married after six years of an intense (and on his part absolutely worshipping) relationship to one woman who dumped the guy she'd been with for a year because he spit on the sidewalk repeatedly one week because he had a sinus infection (she simply couldn't be with someone who did that.)

This goes beyond being self-centered or being b*tches -- this is about being self-destructive in terms of relationships. It's not about "allowing" certain kinds of behavior -- good lord, some of this stuff is far beyond predictability or sense. I personally don't have the same completely negative view of American women as many here do in terms of thinking of all of all as terrible and hopeless, but I do believe that there's something generally wrong here.

You might be right about American men and women overanalyzing things, but in terms of taking rejection too seriously (and your example on at the gym) I'd simply say that when one is kicked where it hurts repeatedly one tends to cover up so as not to take the full force of the next blow. It's a survival instinct.

Just to be clear about where I'm coming from -- I'm someone who's been in a relationship for forever, fairly happily for the most part, and I don't expect perfection from anyone. Lord knows I fall far short in that regard. But if anyone is to end up at all happy in the male-female jousting process, some degree of equity and clarity must be present in the rules.

The men I know who wreck and ruin their relationships do so in the usual classic ways of catting around or being immature louts, etc., but the difference is that they usually are willing to take the blame fairly immediately for screwing things up. Not so with the women, for whom that process may take years, if it ever happens, and this is a very key difference.

(And, btw, let me also thank you for your presence and reasoned responses, and for managing to ignore most of the baiting that goes one here.)

[Dickhead]

"CB - GB" gives me the "heebie jeebies." Way, way out of line.

[Dickhead]

Babe, I wasn't looking for an argument as my position is rather unassailable! But, I don't think most of the guys on this board are judging American women based on "a few," but rather we are judging based on the MAJORITY of our experiences. I have thirty years of sexual experience with American women and there have been more than a few good experiences but the majority have been far inferior to my average experience with non-American women. I think that's the point that most of us are trying to make, in our own inarticulate, insenstitive, Cro-Magnon fashion. It is, after all, somewhat of a numbers game. In my field, we use a thing called "expected value." If you are not familiar with this, it basically means you have to multiply the value of each possible outcome by the probability of its occurring. Here's an example.

Dickhead meets a seemingly nice woman and is thinking about asking her out. Possible outcomes with values and probability:

1). Woman tells him to F.O.A.D. Value NEGATIVE $500 (damage to Dickhead's delicate psyche), probability 20%.
2). Woman says, "Sure, call me some time," and then gives a fake phone number. Value NEGATIVE $250 (some damage to psyche plus time is money), probability 15%.
3). Woman says yes, they go out, there is no chemistry, and nothing happens. Value NEGATIVE $100 (guy always has to pay), probability 25%.
4). Woman says yes, they go out, they hit it off, they go out again, and still nothing happens. Value NEGATIVE $200, probability 20%.
5). Woman says yes, they go out, they have sex, and then the woman acts strange, gives vague excuses, etc., and it never happens again. Value $100 (average value of average sex to the average Dickhead), probability 15%.
6). Woman says yes, they go out, they have sex many times, and then there is an ugly and painful breakup. Value varies from negative a whole bunch to positive quite a bit, with a mean value of zero; probability 5%.

These are the only outcomes I have personally experienced, although in #6, "many times" has lasted up to seven years.

Expected value of asking an American woman out = (-500 x .2) + (-250 x .15) + (-100 x .25) + (-200 x .2) + (100 x .15) + (0 x .05) = NEGATIVE $187.50.

And, I can get a hooker for less than $187.50 pretty much anywhere except the United States. Therefore, I'm better off even if the subsequent sex is WORTHLESS!

Dickhead can be romantic at times but at heart is practical and pragmatic like most men. Plus, the older I get the more valuable my remaining time becomes (I always thought I'd die young but now it's too late!)

Of course this is riddled with sarcasm as usual, but hopefully I made some sort of point.

[CBGBConnisur]

so, you were in paris last year three times!!! whoopee!!! i never talked to any americans while there, i spotted a few here and there, but, you know what? the ones i saw happened to be the archtypical fat americans. you really think i would be able to spot you in a city of 10 million people?? who the fuck do you think you are? you obviously sound like a ?itch so there is no need for me to talk to you anymore. by the way those beauties i saw i could identify 100 percent as french or european, they obviously were not speaking english. it doesn't matter what i define attractive to be, you're just complicating things like a typical american ?itch!!! too bad for you, that i am letting other men know about the opportunities to meet women abroad so they won't have to put up with the shit that bitches like you give us men. fuck you. enjoy your vibrator.

[USbabe]

Oh, I wanted to say to FedUp, thank you for explaining what a gringo is! I had a feeling it wasn't exactly an endearing term.... I actually did show this site to two of my friends, but they immediately dismissed it saying that these guys already had their minds made up and that nothing anyone said or did would make any difference. I really hope to prove them wrong! I think that the day I close my mind to new information is the day I quit living on the planet.

[USbabe]

Dick, you said, "Another symptom of this sad syndrome is the way single women are having children on their own"

If you're looking for an argument from me, you'll be disappointed! I completely agree. SOME women think that the only valuable part of a man is his sperm, and the problem with that is that children are paying the price. Both a mother and a father are needed to raise children. Sometimes unplanned pregnancies occur, but to plan a child out-of-wedlock is very selfish.

But again, not ALL American women think this way! Some of us actually like men. In fact, some of us actually like men a lot! But if you (in plural form) insist on judging all American women based on the actions of a few, you'll never find out who we are. :-)

[USbabe]

Hi Joe, the "exoticism" of another culture is definitely at play, at least in part. I'm not ashamed to admit that a foreign accent touches a few sensitive spots in my body that a plain old American accent won't! The road runs both ways in that sense. I'd much rather take a vacation in Europe than a camping trip to my local park; wouldn't you?

I won't argue that, IN GENERAL, women treat men differently in the US, but here's another slant. It's very true that American women can probably economically make it on their own better in the US than almost anywhere else. Maybe some of the foreign women must rely on men economically or they'll never get ahead. In some countries, sadly enough, women aren't even thought of as human. Women in some third world countries are killed if they so much as talk back to their husbands. They're treated like cattle. I certainly hope no one here supports that kind of treatment of women. In other words, women in other cultures sometimes have no choice because they must rely on men.

I can't argue that some American women are very arrogant, self-centered witches. But, in some ways, they wouldn't become that way if men didn't allow it. I'm not putting all of the blame on men at all! But I've seen both men AND women put up with shoddy treatment, and at a guess it's because of a lack of self-esteem. The US is the land of plenty. I'm almost certain that no one posting on this forum is lacking in any comfort material possessions, let alone basic food and shelter. Sometimes some of life comes so easily that we take much for granted. And we become spoiled -- both men and women. Perhaps in other cultures, people appreciate more what they have because it isn't as plentiful. Many women in the US can fully support themselves, even in lavish lifestyles. How many foreign women can say the same thing? I'm sure some can, but my guess is that more American women are able to become self-sufficient than foreign women.

I'm not going to rant and rave about American men, but I'll tell you one thing that I've observed about European men that I haven't observed quite so often in American men. Often, European men seem more protective of women and not so afraid of us. I'm approached much more often in Europe than in the US. Unfortunately, some of the bad experiences that men have encountered here have made some men less likely to approach women. Very generally, men take rejection so personally in the US, and in Europe, men seem to find it par for the course but usually don't let it upset them. Both men and women in the US tend to overanalyze situations. I'll give an example.

This past winter, I was running on an indoor track at the gym. I had on a Walkman and was immersed in deep thought and was relatively impervious to everything around me. As I was about 20 meters past a man, it just dawned on me that he said something to me as I passed by him! Since I was pondering something, I'm pretty sure my eyebrows were furrowed and I looked totally unapproachable. The next time around, he was gone. I didn't see him for a few more days, but when I did, he totally ignored me. I felt so bad that he thought I was being rude to him, so I actually walked up to him and said something like, "I was on the track the other day when I passed by you. I think you said something to me, but I was so deep in thought that it didn't even register with me until later that you said something! I just wanted you to know that I didn't mean to be rude to you at all."

His reaction was something like I had just handed him a million dollars. He said he shrugged it off and it was no big deal, but the way he treated me after I explained the situation was the difference between night and day. I could tell that his perceived perception of me bothered him greatly.

The reason that I mention this is that sometimes things just aren't always as they appear. I have no doubt that the guy was thinking pretty much along the thoughts of many of you here -- that I was just arrogant and rude and snubbing him. But I wasn't! I was completely preoccupied and would have acted no differently if it were anyone else or even if there wasn't anyone there at all.

We can't change the behavior of others. But we can change our own behavior. If you want to attract successful, attractive people, then you have to be someone that successful, attractive people are attracted to! I dislike whining from others a lot. I usually avoid people like that and instead usually hang out with people who have more optimistic views on life. I like American men, but some of them are very unattractive because of their views on life. And I like foreign men, but some of them are very unattractive because of their views on life.

If you expect American women to be (whatever negative images you have), then you probably won't be disappointed. But really, don't you deserve better in life? I do, and I insist on it!!

[Dickhead]

Right on, JZ. Remember that bumper sticker that was going around a while back: "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle"? That encapsulated the sentiment quite nicely. SAnother symptom of this sad syndrome is the way single women are having children on their own. I have yet to see this outside of the US, Canada, and the wealthy countries of northern Europe. Really, I think this should be a last resort and not just another way to propagate the species. Actually, I think it's selfish. My niece did this and she could easily have a guy but says that a relationship would interfere with her career

The kid, now seven, is having a lot of emotional problems (besides from being the biggest sissy you ever saw in your life), which brings us back to the old adage: "Spare the rod and spoil the child."

[Joe Zop]

Originally posted by USbabe
Can you imagine women saying that European men were better lovers, better-looking, and much nicer than American men? I bet you'd feel defensive because you were being lumped together with everyone.

Gee, well in point of fact I've seen that happen repeatedly. I agree with your point about generalization, USBabe, but it happens on both sides of the fence. I've had friends -- truly nice guys -- who couldn't get the time of day from the same women who suddenly started drooling when a foreign accent was in evidence. Doesn't matter if to us the guy was an obvious bozo; to her, heck, maybe he's literally a prince!

I do think there are two rather natural tendencies at play - and I think both men and women indulge. First, there's a sort of exoticism that kicks in when someone's from a different culture. It's as if they're somehow going to fill the void that's not previously been filled, and whether they actually will or won't gets obscured because you've got to take time figuring them out. The second is something my friends and I used to call "new town syndrome" -- the fact that when you go somewhere else for a time you simply see more beautiful people. (Happens when you buy a new car, too -- you suddenly see a bunch more on the road.) I think it's something in our antennaes, how we imagine ourselves operating in the new place as opposed to our normal lives.

Underlying everything in this thread, however, is one very clear truth in the midst of all the other stuff (some of which is rather silly) and that's the fact that American women in general absolutely do treat men differently from the way women do in other countries. It may because they've got more equality than in other places, they're more independent, self-absorbed, paranoid, strong, whatever. But the fact is that men don't get the same level or degree of attention when talking to or being with most American women as they do elsewhere. The messages are essentially, "I don't need you" and "it's your job to keep me but not the other way around" and, as this thread demonstrates, those messages are very much understood and the feeling has become mutual.

[USbabe]

CBGB, I was in Paris three times last year, so maybe you saw me! Or, maybe only the beautiful women go to Europe. ;-)

You've lived in and visited cities, but have you ever been to many smaller areas? Believe it or not, a lot of top models come from small areas (both in the US and Europe).

However, I'm still confused as to what you mean specifically by attractive , a person's genetics or how she is dressed (and how her hair is done, and things like that). I can't argue at all with the opinion that American women are generally a lot more casual than European women. I'm not sure how we got that way. But, please be careful in typecasting women, because a beautiful American woman just might walk right on past you, but if your mind is already made up that her simply being American means that she's unattractive, you're severely limiting your opportunities.

Unfortunately, as an abundant nation, I don't think there's any doubt that there are more obese people (men, as well as women!) in the US. And we're probably more pale. But on the other hand, if you compare the "average" middle-aged American woman with the "average" middle-aged European woman, the American woman frequently looks much younger. Sun is very damaging and aging to skin (as is smoking, which Europeans do a lot more than Americans).

Do you know that Christie Brinkley is almost 50?! It's incredible. However, believe it or not, she is an American woman.

However, instead of comparing American women to European women, how about just enjoying women because they're women?! Can you imagine women saying that European men were better lovers, better-looking, and much nicer than American men? I bet you'd feel defensive because you were being lumped together with everyone.

Prejudice and type-casting closes off far more doors than it opens.

[CBGBConnisur]

USBabe, I have traveled and worked in Europe extensively over the past few years. I have also lived in some of the most cosmopolitan and glamorous US cities. (I spent 4 years in California living in both San Francisco and Los Angeles), I also go to Miami frequently, and I have lived most of my life in New York City. I have also been to Texas, Georgia, and the Carolinas. In Europe, I have been all over, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Prague, Budapest, everywhere. Over the years, I have seen HUGE numbers of women, and living in NYC, you do see HUGE numbers of them, you also see HUGE numbers of them in the European cities I have mentioned. The cities I have lived in (NY, LA, SF, and Miami) happen to be considered the top 5 cities in the United States to meet and see beautiful women, NY is the fashion capital of America, Miami has its large latin population, LA is closely connected with Hollywood. So these are the most glamorous cities in America. I have noticed that in every city with the exception of Miami, no more than one in ten women I saw I would consider attractive, no more and no less. In Miami, the ratio is more favorable, its about 1/4th of the population. I have met women at health clubs, in offices, at restaraunts, at bars, at discos, at shopping malls,at parks, at colleges, at beaches, suburbs, and places of worship. In Europe I have met them in all of these types of locales, health clubs, restaurants, shopping areas, discos, parks, beaches, discos, university campuses, bars, in suburbs of cities, and churches. In my comparison of the two areas I have found over 3 out of every four European women I encounter to be attractive. Personally walking down the Champs Ellysees in Paris last year I saw more attractive women in 5 minutes than I do in 5 weeks on the Champs Elysees' New York equivalent, Midtown Manhattan between Park Avenue to Avenue of Americas to Times Square. In central Amsterdam I saw more beautiful women than I do in the Greenwich Village - Soho Section of lower Manhattan. On the Riviera, I see more beautiful women than I do in South Beach Miami and Malibu California. Another thing when I meant by making passes I did not mean grabbing a woman's rear end or shouting something obscene. We live in a civilized society, what I meant is that I have seen men make eye contact and give smiles to women they find attractive in public areas of gathering, and often the women themselves seem touched off by the fact that some strange man is making eye contact with them. This is just absurd!! What the hell did they expect??!! When I was in Europe, I would often see women trying to make eye contact with me, and if I did the same I would usually get a smile from them. Even in a big and bustling places like Paris or Frankfurt, if I simply just looked at a women, gave a hello, and smiled I would get a return smile from her. I've seen this all over the continent of Europe, women are just plain friendlier than they are in the States. Another thing, after spending a lot of time in Europe, when I returned to the States, I could not help but notice how fat and pale most American women are. Sorry USBabe, Europeans simply do it better.

[Dickhead]

FU, I agree small town gals are nicer, but would say they tend to be less venturesome and somewhat more narrow minded. BTW, you meant there are more "loser" men down South, not more "looser" men, right? Cuz how would you know about the latter!?! Didn't mean to criticize RN, just the shaved beaver's not my thing. I think Rubbie started the whole nicks and cuts discussion in re eating potato chips and such, a while back, so I thought I'd yank on her chain a little. I believe the Aussies call that "letting the [CodeWord140] out."

Babe, thanks, but no, I am not a writer per se, although I do a lot of writing at my job. And as far as the awkward thing meant, it applies to both the phallus and the phalanges. I find I can stimulate the clitoris with the phallus during intercourse using certain techniques I decline to share (Dickhead is rather selfish), but the positions are awkward and difficult to maintain for too long. And, when using the phalanges on the clitoris while the phallus is inserted, I often fall victim to the "pat your head while rubbing your tummy" syndrome (Dickhead is not the most coordinated individual on the planet).

PS, I never studied anthro but I have a minor in sociology. My particular interest was stratification.

DH

[Fedup]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RN
Just for you Dickhead......

*Turning around*
*Bending slowly over the bed and raising my skirt*

OOPS...it seems I forgot to put underwear on......

And what's this?? It's a shaved...pink...NOT obese...definately NOT lazy...
....PUSSY! LOL

Ok, so it's Australian pussy not American pussy and the topic at hand is American pussy (or lack thereof), but did I at least manage to change the subject????

*cheeky grin*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Dickhead


Well, gee, thanks, Nursey but if you're doing it JUST for me then don't shave that thang. I've never really liked that; it kinda makes me feel like a child molester. Also what about nicks and cuts in connection with STD? Seems like it's not as safe.

Just trim it a little and let it go at that.

sheese!... what a dickhead... nothing but criticism. I'll take your pink little shaved friend Rub... but you'd better be careful... I still have that oral fixation thing going on...