American Women

[Phil]

Yeah I wanted to put my two cents on the current discussion. First of all I would like to welcome USBabe to the forum. It's nice to hear a fresh feminine perspective on our topic of American women. USBabe, you were quoting me on one of my post in which I compared women to little children (but not in a derogotory way). One guy on here actually didn't understand where I was coming from so I'll explain it again. What I was trying to say is that if you spoil a human being, male or female, when you stop spoiling them they will get mad about not receiving preferential treatment. In another one of my post I stated that the American woman was a monster that the American man created.

Now what I'm about to say is not meant to offend anyone. I am not prejudiced at all but I must say this because it is the truth. America is basically a Caucasion nation. I mean it's mixed with a lot of races but white people started America. And the American model is to bend over backwards to satisfy their women. I really don't think it is only a racial thing. I think it's more of a monatary thing. I once stated on here that I read somewhere that the more succesful a nation became, the more power they gave to their women in terms of material gains. That is essentially what has happened in America. The reason I bring this up is because in other countries the men just don't treat their women like Americans treat their women. In a lot of these other countries sex is treated as nothing, just like sleeping or taking a shower.

The American man has elevated the American woman above himself when in actuality we all equal. I believe that in these other countries they sometimes go to far to the left and American men go to far to the right. What you have to do is find a nice equilibrium to how you treat women.

I am a black American male (pretty handsome one I might add, ha ha) but seriously I laugh at this whole situation as a whole: how black and white American men treat their women and how men in like Africa or Afganistan treat their women. I find it fascinating how we're basically all human beings but every nation has it's own unique WOMAN policy.

I'm about to go but let me add, I agree with USBabe not all American women are bad. But a lot of them have been socially conditioned to be idiots. And the women can't even see it. It's like the first time I went to Brazil it blew me away because, even though it's a lot of crime there, the people are nice. I mean everybody is. But they a socially conditioned to be that way. A lot of these foreign women are socially conditioned to be real feminine and sexy. A lot of American women are socailly conditioned to be real bitchy, moody, etc. Growing up I've never had many girlfriends; I figured out a young age that American women are basically acting moody, bitchy, etc. to get what they want and psychologically stay above men be seeming like they're not satisfied with nothing you do. Anyway I could talk all night about this subject as you can see, but the point that I must make is that a lot of Americans are SAD with the dating situation here. That's why I've given up on American women. You know that this situation is basically created one, because God made men and women to be get together and populate this planet. It's not supposed to be this hard; that's how you know something is wrong with this American dating model.

[Sinanju Master]

(accidentally continued from my previous post) WOW! Something must be wrong with me! USBabe, I instinctively wanted to punch holes in your analysis, but you were RIGHT on ALL COUNTS and I can't find anything wrong with your presentation! I'm gonna say something that I'll admit that I almost NEVER say to a woman:"You're right". In my defense (what little I have) whenever I've been to Europe, I've never had to labor to have female companionship (not necessarily sex). I was able to chat with the local ladies and not feel as if I were on the witness stand and being tested to see if I were somehow cloaking my intent or what have you. Here in the US, I feel as if I have to unnaturally keep on my toes and raise my shields. But since you so eloquently made your presentation, it made me think of actually BURYING the axe instead of just talking about it. Pass the Humble Pie, please.....

[Sinanju Master]

WOW! Something must be wrong with me! I instinctively wanted to punch holes in USBabe's analysis, but she was RIGHT

[USbabe]

(this is part 2)

Look at the guys who never seem to have problems attracting women. They're usually somewhat mysterious, in other words, they don't tell women everything. We read Nancy Drew mystery stories as children, and we want to find out what's inside! Be willing to please but not TOO much so. Do you really want to drive a girl crazy? After your first date, although I know what you really want to do (in most cases, anyway), don't attempt a good night kiss. Instead, kiss the back of her hand, and then leave without hesitation. It always works, and I'll tell you why. If the date didn't go so well, you prove yourself to be a gentleman of grace in the face of a not-so-great circumstance. If there were sparks, trust me, she'll be up all night and can't get you off of her mind! She'll wonder why you didn't try to kiss her on the lips. And, I know this will make no sense to you, you'll become more desirable. Guys are wired to want sex. So, if the date went well, she'll wonder why you didn't even at least try to kiss her on the lips! Make us want to know more about you.

There are millions of women in the US. There are some wonderful, sexy, brilliant, gorgeous ones and there are some ugly, man-hating, bitchy ones as well. Please don't let the latter get in the way of finding the real gems. As with any precious stone, sometimes you have to remove a few rough pebbles before you find the shining treasure. :-)

[USbabe]

i went back and read all the posts on "american women." you guys sound like you've really been burned, and i'm sorry to hear that. it happens to women too though. i forgot who said it but someone mentioned that women are like little children and if you put up with their rotten behavior, they will keep giving it. that's it! i don't really think women are out to test guys, but if a guy doesn't put a stop to that kind of manipulative behavior, it continues. then, the woman doesn't respect the man, and vice versa. i get the impression that some guys are afraid of losing her, so they'll put up with anything, and that's where the problem starts.

brownie, you said, " not when you have to keep guessing what role she wants you to play and when." already your role is pansy (i'm not trying to be mean to you, but it's the truth). it's good to be flexible and to want to please women, but when you start really altering your behavior only to please her, you lose yourself and aren't true to who you are, and that loses respect with women, no matter what they say.

paddy, you said "the women in the us who know that i go to eastern europe to meet women also become very livid and irate with me when this topic comes up." okay, think if i said this, "i'm going to eastern europe to meet some real men because all the men in the us are either chauvinist pigs or wimps." wouldn't that put you on the defensive? if you said that you like to travel to eastern europe because you like traveling and meeting new people, and by the way, you just happened to meet a lot of very nice girls, only someone really insecure would take offense. it all depends on how you word it. if you say that you're going there because there are no quality women here, that obviously includes them, and i could see why they would be insulted.

sinanjumaster, it sounds like you've really been burned, and i'm sorry to hear that. please remember that there are millions of women in the us and just because a few are immature brats doesn't mean we all are. a friend of mine was raped a couple of years ago. it was devastating to her, and she's still in counseling. she is one of the nicest people in the world and i just want to hang up the guy by his you-know-what who did it to her. but she's slowly learning to trust again and is trying hard to realize that not all men are like that at all. you have to do the same. in fact, could it be that you're trying too hard? or that your past negative experiences are hidden just under the surface and women can sense that?

here's a question i have for you. do you usually get a definite sense of yes or no after you've gone out on a first date? sometimes i do, but not always. maybe women don't tell you that they're not interested because it isn't true. maybe they feel a tiny spark but not an overwhelming one. then later when any spark just hasn't materialized, you think that they were leading you on. i'm not saying that is what happened, but it's a possibility to consider.

you said, "actually, it's taught me to determine a loss before i waste my time with a double-speaking, fork-tongued "gamestress". i'm sure there are some women who play games. but i also think that sometimes men and women may interpret the same situation in different ways, and that might be contributing to your pain. i see you teeter tottering between two extremes, immediately putting up your defenses so that no woman has a chance and then getting rid of all defenses and leaving your heart open to beat in the raw.

okay, all women are different, but here's my prescription on how to attract the opposite sex while maintaining your own self-respect. you say that girls want men to be "exciting." well yeah, i mean, would you be interested in a "boring" girl?! be nice to her but don't be too vulnerable. don't ever bend over backwards to please her, it makes you look weak and kind of desperate, if you want to know the truth. at least in the beginning of the relationship, don't ask her to solve your problems. be flexible, but never give up your life for someone else. that makes us feel like we're responsible for your happiness, and that's just too big of a burden. think about it, would you be more attracted to a woman who a) is just stagnating in life, sitting around saying, "i have so much to give but no one to give it to, as soon as i meet mr. right, my life will be so perfect," or b) a woman who is currently happy and fulfilled. putting men in those situations, i'd much rather be with someone who leads a full life and is willing to make me a part of it, not someone who puts me at the helm and expects me to steer the vessel of his happiness and self-esteem.

(continued in next post)

[Sinanju Master]

Had I read the post by USbabe just a short while ago, I would have laid a mushroom cloud at her doorstep. Since I now try to think before responding to such a button-pushing issue (with ME that is) I'll try to calmy explain to her WHY her remedy to the situation works the OPPOSITE.

USbabe, I won't go the past route and say that ALL US women are Greedy, Rude, Obnoxious, Arrogant and Narcissistic. A GREAT MANY of them are and I'll tell you why. I always keep my eyes and ears open and my mouth shut. Okay, the third one is more difficult to do, but I do it enough to be able to ascertain information about a woman when I listen to her directly (when she's talking to ME) or indirectly (when I hear her talking to her friends). I often hear what they expect from a man and it seems as if US women are expecting a man to lay his world at their feet. That would be no problem with me IF I found a woman who realized that it's a two way street and that you have to EARN that world. You gotta be worth your weight in GOLD to make those kind of demands and you must back them up without hesitation if you are to convey any credibility.

I have truly lost count of the women who have told me they want a nice guy, only later to learn that they TRULY want an "exciting" guy instead. It's the constant (and UNANNOUNCED) change of rules in the middle of the game that make men scratch their heads and determine that women are incapable of logic. Myself, I like for a woman to be up front with me regarding her feelings (or lack thereof) for me. Sure it may sting initially, BUT I will respect her and give her a wide berth if she tells me up front that she's not interested. (I once had a woman reject me firmly, but politely. I was astonished at such a RARE display of true class, but I kept my composure and acquiesced to her wishes) INSTEAD, they will leave the hint (STOMP IT OUT,IF THERE IS NONE LADIES) that there is the possibility of an eventual romantic situation between them. They're afraid that our egos will shatter if we are rejected outright. Better to stomp out a fire NOW than to allow it to run rampant because you didn't take care of things up front. [To digress, yes, all, I was stupid enough NOT to put two and two together and burn bridges that would never have worked in the first place!] Anyway, getting back to the desire for a "nice" guy: when the women hook up with their TRUE choice of the exciting guy, many times they end up with an "addition" to the world that they did not plan and the exciting guy keeps true to his form of being exciting, by blowing town and avoiding his responsibilities. At the very least, he will contribute to a broken heart (the woman's) and add another notch to his bedpost, which ends up having American women lumping those of us who DON'T treat women like dog droppings into the same category as the offending guy who DIDN'T respect them. Meanwhile (in many cases, not ALL) the one whom she thought of as worthy of "plantng the seed" in her field of fertility has blown town and NOW she seeks a CHUMP to take care of the harvest. Who's that, you may ask? The nice guy she turned up her nose at in the FIRST PLACE. I don't know about my compadres on this board, but when a woman sees me only as a means to alleviate the hardships of taking care of the result of her mistake, I get disgusted and see the previously sought-after silk purse as a true sow.

I now realize (I mean TRULY REALIZE) that each and every human being has their own individual tastes and that not every woman will like me. C'est La Vie. Being in this "battle" has taught me to cut my losses and move on. Actually, it's taught me to determine a loss BEFORE I waste my time with a double-speaking, fork-tongued "gamestress".

To my compadres who contribue to this board, I hope I've not produced a lifeless, radioactive crater as I have in the past. Like I said, for ME, this is a button pushing issue that would have in the past, caused me to launch a thermonuclear arsenal and be damned who gets hurt.

[Paddy]

Hi US Babe,

Thanks for your comments. Maybe there is hope out there.

I wanted to inform you that this topic goes far beyond just written statements on this forum. If you have read this forum and its archives, you'd find that American men are going overseas by the planeload to find women. The big target areas are central and South America, Asia and Eastern Europe in particular.

In fact, three friends of mine just returned from The Netherlands where they met women and had extraordianry sex. By the way, these are tall, good looking professional guys with two of them having incomes in excess of 100K. This seems to be a growing sociological movement and has been examined already in the news media. In fact, this "exodus" seems to be acccelerating. The women in the US who know that I go to Eastern Europe to meet women also become very livid and irate with me when this topic comes up.

What are your thoughts and comments???

[brownie]

USBabe, you wrote:
"I will tell you though that the minute you let a girl walk over you, you're buried. Be nice to us but don't be spineless. "

Thats where the problem is for a lot of us guys. Be nice to us, but dont be spineless, sounds easy enough right? Not when you have to keep guessing what role she wants you to play and when. I was born outside of the US but have lived most of life within the US. Generally, women outside of the US are more comfortable with men playing the traditional "man's" role, which I think makes it a lot easier for guys to just be themselves and not have to worry about whether they are on that fine line of nice but not spineless.

[USbabe]

I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see if with my own eyes. A friend of mine showed me this whole website (we're both female), and I can't believe guys spend so much time looking and paying for sex. I'm not some man-hater, but I've never heard guys talk about girls like this. I know there are some real stuck-up snobs out there, but some of these posts are lumping all American women together in the same category. There are some real jerks of men out there too you know but not all girls think of all guys that way. Why do you let the few rotten apples speak for the rest of us? We're not all out to wring you out dry and walk all over you! I will tell you though that the minute you let a girl walk over you, you're buried. Be nice to us but don't be spineless. Some of us are really nice and really cute too!

[NoFatso]

miller2k

Great! so we determine that =>

1. Both of us support the freedom to choose
2. Both of us support the freedom to speak our minds
3. Both of us like women and we like to have fun.

So, let's get back to the area we agree. Thank you.

[Mill Just]

nofatso...we DO agree on the concept of freedom...you're free to be wrong (ha,ha)

..but let me clarify that my feelings were NEVER hurt. I was ANGRY. I wasn't weeping because you insulted me. I was angry because you judged all fat people based on your limited knowledge. Opinions are alright, but they aren't alright when they stand in the way of someone making a living for their family. That's where I felt you crossed the line from "opinionated" (good) to "hateful" (bad)..and I will never remain silent with respect to something that I know to be wrong and dangerous.

YOUR truth did not prevail because it was just that ...YOUR truth. I respect the freedom to express opinions (moreso than most), but I don't respect the arrogance to assume that those same opinions are facts just because you believe them strongly.

I just can't understand why you don't understand my central point: Judging based on facts is reasonable, but making a correlation between one bad habit and all others is just plain wrong. If you say, "she is fat, she is lazy to work out, so she will be lazy at her place of employment" that's just the same as saying "He is black, blacks are criminals, so he will steal from his place of employment." You are making an assumption about a person's abilities and/or attributes based SOLELY on appearance. And behavior IS the cause of being overweight, but there is a genetic component as well. This IS a fact, but I'm not releasing all overweight people from responsibility...

I'm glad that your tone has calmed down (as opposed to the mocking, hateful tone you assumed much earlier in this section, when you assumed that everybody would rush in to join you and nobody would call you out), but you never have to "worry" about hurting my feelings.

Like I said, I respect your right to live as you see fit and I would defend with my life your right to freedom...

Let's end this because it's obvious that we're just repeating ourselves now...let's agree on this:

WE LOVE OUR HOBBY!!!! AND WE LOVE WOMEN!!!!

[NoFatso]

miller2k

Thank you for your nice comments. I surely appreciate.

Seems like you and I will continue to disagree on ALL the issues we discuss, in particular, judgement based on facts is informed decision, not "discrimination" and behavior is the cause of obesity.

However, as I stated, you are entitled to your opinion and I will definitely fight for your right to speak your mind, I think this may be the area you and I both agree. How about we settle on this

[NoFatso]

David

I appreciate your comments on "non judgemental". Most of us lead a life of being non judgemental unless the issue at stake involves our personal welfare. It just happened that I dare to articulate what most of us hide in our hearts. Having said that, I do understand that people have feelings and feelings can be hurt. Sometimes, it is socially feasible to remain silent but when too many of us keep silent, the truth lost out somewhere. I do not intend to repeat the central thesis of my discussions out of respect to miller2k's feelings. You can track my discussions from previous postings if you are interested.

After 9/11, many of us are under even more pressure to speak up if the truth is violated. Case in point, I saw a middle eastern looking man in our building and the first thing I did was to call the security and followed up with the management. Is this racial profiling, you bet, would I do it again, a resounding yes. As I stated, I truly do not intend to hurt miller2k's feeling, but I did which I regretted. It is a tough stance as how to make truth prevail and not hurting others feeling. It is a fine line I am still learning to track. I appreciate your comments.

[Mill Just]

Nofatso...one clarification: I never said that I felt that being overweight was solely an inhertited gene. I DON'T believe that. I think that it, just as with almost every other behavioral trait, is a mixture of nature and nurture. Skinny people aren't always skinny just because they eat fruits and workout...Nature always will have her say in the matter. Even when I was in training, I still looked heavy. I worked out daily and ate all of the right foods (as prescribed by my trainer) and I still looked pudgy. I stopped training so hard after I realized that women would still want me, my employer would still value me, and life would still be beautiful if I didn't kill myself an hour and a half a day (3 hours on Tues. and Fri)

Having said that, my main point of contention was with your "They don't exercise so they must be lazy" generlization. Sure, maybe overweight people are "unmotivated" to work out, but this attitude does not necessarily translate to lack of motivation in all areas. You might LOVE chocolate and eat it like a pig, but that doesn't mean that if I bring over a few steaks you will devour them all. Lack of desire to be "in style" isn't laziness per se...sure, it CAN be, but you can't make a total generlization. Sure, you can point to the cold, hard facts that state "Lack of exercise and poor eating habits cause 99% of the obesity in the world." But, I was never disputing that. What I WAS disputing was your theory that lack of exercise always is laziness and laziness with regards to exercise is always a sign of laziness in other areas of life. There are no cold, hard facts to prove that point...because it's wrong.

I also disagree with another point. This one is more of an issue of personal preference. I will ALWAYS be exactly how I wish to be. So, even if the norms of society change, I will keep being me. So, if everybody weighs 300lbs, keep being yourself. I've found that holding steady, standing firm, and being "real" will always triumph over stereotypical judgements...Discrimination only exists when the "victims" tolerate the discrimination...

from: The Happiest Man Alive, deep in the heart of Mexico

[David]

Let me continue (about the lazy thing).

To be lazy is immoral (at least according to older protestant teachings). To chose not to do something because you don't find it sufficiently worthwhile (be it excercise, getting a second job, etc.) is simply decision making.

It is really this distinction ... the difference between judging a person, and describing typical decisions made by people, that I am trying to emphasize.

As an example (you describing people who are fat, and me describing them).

You:

They're (typically) lazy, gluttons.

Me:

They tend to be less physically active, and tend to eat more.


Ah. I think I've done a better job explaining. Good. I look forward to hearing from you.

Smiles,
David