American Women

[David]

Nofatso,

Let us have one more go of it then (sorry for my tardiness, fast internet access is on and off with me).

My objection to your treatments of people who were overweight lay solely in the moral evaluation (as opposed to the "facts"). -- Lazy, Gluttonous, etc.

Clearly, being overweight is bad for your health. However, that *does not* mean you are lazy in general. For example, there are lots of overweight people who, while *physically* lazy, still work their butt's off at work (~mentally). Also (and more importantly), who are we to judge?!? If someone doesn't like exercising, we can't say their decision is wrong. It very well could be that their decision to not exercise was perfectly rational (too much effort for not enough gain...)

Likewise, calling someone "gluttonous" has moral overtones ... it is, after all, one of the seven deadly sins. There is a vast difference between saying "gluttonous" and "eats a lot". One has moral overtones, another does not. A glutton is a *bad person* because he eats a lot. A person who simply eats a lot might be good or bad.

*Sighs*. I hope I have successfully communicated my main problem with the phrasing of your earlier posts.

Sincerely,
David

P.S. I'm impressed with your composure. Thank you for engaging in civil debate. *Smiles*.

[NoFatso]

miller2k

i want to extend a hand of friendship and reconciliation to you. let me be honest with you, i was quite touched by your earlier posting. you came out and stated about the success of your business, your involvement in your community etc. it is your personal privacy and you don't owe anyone a "confession" ;like this on this board and you did that. i feel very touched by your writing. i felt, i could have presented the facts much better, in a more diplomatic form with you. throughout my discussion, i have chosen to use unbiased evidence from the behavioral science, medical science fields. however, sometimes in a heated discussion, dry facts can be annoying and i may be guilty of too many dry facts. case in point, oj was acquitted not by factual evidence but by emotional sentiments. so, i am aware of that and i felt you have been unfairly treated in this discussion. so, for lack of a better word, i want to apologize to you. having said that.........

it was in no way i want to discard the truth that obesity and laziness, lack of motivation, personal discipline is directly linked. based on every scientific evidence, they are. i do not want to be the italian guy (corpenicus? sp?) who had every scientific fact to say that flat earth is wrong but later retrenched due to political pressure from the vatican. so, it is not an "assumption" but "conclusion" based on long range scientific research and evidence. so, yes, lack of motivation/discipline/laziness is the cause of obesity. having restated that.........

i want to make sure you understand everybody is entitled to make their own choice in life and i am, from the very beginning, did not call on you to make a different choice. this entire discussion was started when you felt obesity is an inherited gene (i maintain it is a choice one conscienciously made) and that society discriminates against obese people as in discriminating of blacks (i maintain there is 1*. no evidence of discrimination and 2*. holding one accountable to the choice one made is no discrimination).

miller2k, i would say we agree to disagree. in no way our disagreement makes either one of us as being anything negative. this is the nature of any political discussion, . if you believe in your principle, hold on to it. the same for me. hey, may be you are winning! i heard on the radio that in california, where 40% of school children are obese, there were reported cases of "discrimination" where the "lean" children were being rejected by the fat group or experiencing peer pressure to get fat, to "get along" so to speak. so, i will not be the least bit surprised that one of these days, i have to get to 300lbs to avoid "discrimination"! would i do that, you bet i will if that is the only way i can avoid being discrimination. i wish you well.


yes, i know we are onhe same side on at least one issue, i.e. free to choose, free to make a

[Mill Just]

well...I'm glad to see that you've assumed a more reasonable tone...I'm also glad that you (maybe inadvertently) have seen the error in your initial statements...So, ALL fat people are not necessarily lazy and detrimental to the work environment....Not having the healthiest of diets is not an indication of being a terrible, inneficient person...it's merely a bad lifestyle choice...and who among us has not fallen victim to bad lifestyle choices? But this does not mean that we are somehow diminished as a person...There is a difference between being "held accountable" for a lifestyle choice and being discriminated against. It's the difference between :"She's so fat, no wonder she can't find pants that fit her" and "Look at her fat ass, there's no way I would ever hire that tub." The former is a direct, fair (but not necessarily sensitive) assesment...eats a lot+ no exercise= difficulty in finding clothes to wear. The latter is NOT a fair assesment, it is the assumption of guilt in ALL areas for the guilt in one. It would be like being convicted of a moving violation in traffic court and then the judge telling you that he will hold you for questioning in a murder because "ALL traffic violators are murderers."

Well...I wish you well. Maybe somewhere down the line we can debate again (Hell, we might even be on the same side the next time)

[NoFatso]

miller2k

Thank you for your discussion. I recognize and appreciate that. To reciprocate your goodwill gesture, I am not going to repeat my discussion on "discrimination" versus factual judgement. I would, however, address two questions you raised.

1. Active but still overweight, why?
I probably eat more than you. Yes, I eat a lot. The average American food is very unhealthy, filled with cheese, sour cream, cream, high fat milk, meat paddies and the like. The cooking method is unhealthy too, lots of deep fried, lots of fats with animal fat etc. So, I tend to do my own cooking. Also, I eat a lot but also very little portion, but I eat a lot of meals during the course of the day. Avoid processed foods (as in foods or drinks with high sugar), if you like sugar, eat lots of fruits. Try fish, chicken and all sorts of veggies. Also, bear in mind "fat" as in meat fat is NOT the only culprit. Refined sugar too. When you look at the packaged food available in grocery, the sugar content is huge. Case in point, a 16 ounce bottle CoCa Cola will get you 150 plus calories and to burn this much energy, you have to walk briskly for 90 minutes! A small bowl of honey glazed cereal has 100 calories of sugar! So, diet is a critical step to weight management. Again, I am not saying this is your diet. However, according to all the reports I read and observation of my overweight friends, their diet is the number 1 culprit.

2. Exercise.
I am not talking about trying to win the Olympics gold medals nor am I referring to how busy you work. You can lead a very busy life yet still have a sedate lifestyle. Last month, I worked so hard at the office and got lazy and failed to do excercise, I gained 20lbs in a month! Working hard in your business has nothing to do with motivation to manage a Life (as so brilliently stated by Tony Robbins). For exercise, I mean modest exercise and a motivation to make exercise as a lifestyle. What do I mean by lifestyle? Like parking the car four or five blocks from the office, and walk a distance, as in climbing the stairs to the apartment. Take time out to brisk walk everyday for 30 minutes. If you like, do a 30 minutes jogging every other day. Do 20 minutes light weight lifting every other day. I work in the third level of a six storey office and I notice many of my colleagues would take the elevator commuting even from ground level to the first. Their lifestyle or life pattern is very sedate. In fact, climbing the stairs gives you a good excuse to exercise. Also, as a first step, don't pressure yourself to do everything all at once, one step at a time. However, make sure the consistency is there. Motivate yourself to make every tiny step counts. Focus on one pound per week, per month.

Now having said all this, weight is a personal choice. As you make a choice, society is to hold you accountable to the choice you made. It is much easier to manage weight than to change the society. In addition to that, even you have alluded to the benefit of weight management. I wish you best!

[Mill Just]

Sin...if you give me the poke in the eye, then I will simply use the standard, hands up defense and split those fingers apart. If you continue the attack I'll give you the ol' belly-bump, into a mule kick move...Speaking of the stooges, you can tell a lot about a man by what stooge he likes best. Nofatso likes the abusive Moe, makes sense

Nofatso, I was just kidding about the ulcer. I was trying to illustrate the fact that I was feeling a lot of pressure due to the "sedate" lifestyle of almost 18 hour work days. By the way, I meditate every day. You should try it. It opens up the mind and would release your inner rage.

I'm so glad that my tone is to your liking since the Earth does indeed revolove around you and your personal preferences. With regards to your "facts"...you assume (ASS U ME) that ALL negative behavioral traits are related. What about my example of the smoker? Smoking is a bad behavioral trait yet there is no rush to judge smokers. There IS a rush to judge overweight people as "lazy, unmotivated, etc" Why? Both are negative traits, but only one is visible. What you fail to understand is YOUR responsibility in the whole matter. Sure the object of your judgement, if he/she is black had no choice in the matter and the overweight person (for the most part) did, but YOU are the one we're talking about. YOU are judging a person based entirely on a stereotype that you have developed. So YOU are committing the same error that a racial bigot would make: Assuming that all people with a certain appearance MUST act a certain way. This a major problem in today's society. People just don't accept responsibility for themselves. It's always the other person's fault. You stereotype and hate, yet it's the other person's fault for being that way. You have no responsibility in the matter. Physician, heal thyself.

I never said that fat people were being discriminated against. I was responding to your judgement of potential employees and how you assume (ASS U ME) they must act a certain way. ( I sure hope you don't work in Human Resources) Like I said, I'm overweight and I've never suffered from a lack of motivation, nor laziness. I finished college with a Masters Degree and in the top 5 percent of the class, I studied boxing (and had one pro fight) for four years, I've written 3 novels and two collections of poetry, I worked my way through a major corporation from a summer, mail room intern to a junior vice-president, I moved to Mexico and opened an English Academy, I'm opening another branch of my school, I volunteer with orphans in a nearby village, and I'm opening two other businesses. And I'm barely past 30 years of age. (All this, and I still have time for my "hobby"). Now, I'm not bragging because many people have accomplished a lot more than me, but I know to expect some snide remark. ( I really don't like to give out so many
personal details). I just wanted to point out the flaw in your prejudice. I am NOT lazy or sedate, yet I'm overweight!!! How can this be? Do I like to eat? Hell, yeah. Do I like to sleep with beautiful women, Hell yeah. But my over-eating and my reluctance to run on a treadmill has never affected my desire to bust my (fat)ass to do a great job at anything and everything I try.

Your so-called fact-based discussion is just a series of opinions that you have formulated. Don't try to pretend otherwise because there are NO facts to point out that ALL fat people are a certain way. Show me one "fact" that supports your irrational prejudice...

So, recap. Opinions passed off as "facts" are bad. Judging people on your own personal experiences with them is good. People believed in the Flat Earth theory because they only had opinions, not first hand facts. They were proved wrong by somebody who actually took the effort to discover the truth first hand. Judging people on the content of their character is good. Insisting that someone be "held accountable" for a behavior that may or may not be relevant to the task at hand is bad. Freedom to be a "jack-ass", good. Forcing your personal preferences on others, bad.

Have a SUPER day. Here's an olive branch: You're as intelligent and reasonable as you are tolerant.

[NoFatso]

master

Not so fast now. I prefer to be Moe. Moe is always my main man.

[Sinanju Master]

[thinking that this has gone on too long and that SinanjuMaster will have to act the part of Moe to nofatso's and miller2k's Larry and Curly] Double eyepoke and/or loud slaps

[NoFatso]

miller2k

You mentioned that you are troubled by ulcer. According to Center of Disease Control, 9 out of 10 ulcers are caused by a certain bacteria in your stomach. In such case, a doctor's antibiotic prescription will correct the symtom. The other 1 out of 10 ulcer would be caused by the placebo effect whereby the patient "felt" she has ulcer, this is probably caused by stress and other psycho neural issues. To that, doctor recommends stress reduction therapy (as in meditation, yoga, exercise) and counselling. I hope you feel better soon.

[NoFatso]

miller2k

Welcome back! I was nervous that you get too upset. As I stated, a fact based non emotional discussion illuminates the truth. So, a hearty welcome back!

First of all, let me say, I am not a "jack-ass", i am "nofatso"
Also, thank you for saying that I am "smarter than that" to indicate your goodwill (I presume whatever "that" is, must be super good)

Second, I appreciate the overall tone of your posting much better even though you still used lots of languages as "hate", "bigots", "discrmination" "prejudice". Feels like you are speaking in LOUD tone if not yelling. You continued to lump born trait with behavior trait. You continued to confuse proper "selection/screening/benchmarking" process as being "prejudice", "discrimination". Nonetheless, I applaud your goodwill and the overall improvement in tone which is more discussion oriented.

Thirdly, Discrimination as in one is unfavorably treated due to one's born trait, as in race, sexual orientation, ethnicity. This is different from laziness, sedate lifestyle and lack of motivation, which is a behavior trait. I cannot change my race but can change my behavior. A bahavior based selection criteria is not discriminition. Denying someone of a job because she is black is heaven and earth different from denying someone because she lacks motivation, as manifested from her body weight, which makes good business sense. Havings said that.......... ==>

there is NO EVIDENCE that overweight people are being "discriminated". The fact simply does not support the argument that weighty people are discriminated. Just look around you. In government, the corporate world, lots of alternatively weighted folks have senior high paying positions. From entertainment industry (Rosie, Limbaugh - all 300 pounders) to government (Armitage, Bennet, also close to 300#). So people are accorded with all the benefit of equal opportunity and weight does not seem to be a factor.

So, recap. I am nofatso, not jack-ass. Born trait vs. Behavior Trait. Discrimination of black is bad, selection based on behavioral trait good. No fact supporting weighty people were discriminated. Free choice is good. Holding one accountable to the choice s/he makes is not discrimination, it's accountability. All good. Flat earth theory no good. Fact based discussion good.

Glad that you are back to your happy self. Super good, keep it up.

[Mill Just]

David..Thanks for being the voice of reason. Yes, I was upset. But for the same reason that a Jew would be upset at an anti-semite. It's frustrating to deal with someone who is so lazy as to judge an ENTIRE group of people based on little or no first hand knowledge. But you are right, hate never ends hate, ignorance never diminishes ignorance.

Nofatso...I would never deny your right to be a jack-ass. To the contrary, I defend your right to be however you like. Just as long as it doesn't interfere with my basic rights. That's where we differ...I would never judge you as a person until I get to know you and find out for myself. You are quick to lump ALL people who look a certain way in the same pile. At best, that's short-sighted. At worst, its deadly. Even, if being overweight was 100% behavior, does that mean that an overweight person should be denied the right to support his or her family? Does one negative behavioral trait automatically transfer to all other traits? Do ALL smokers cheat on their wives? Do ALL vegeterians preach to you? Are ALL choco-holics foul-tempered? C'mon, NOFATSO, you're smarter than that. All of the "facts" that you have provided are things that we already know. Ok, it's better for your health to be in shape. But does that mean that overweight people should be discriminated against? Should ALL smokers be judged as harshly? Are they all addicts who will always look for the quick-fix? Of course not.

The point of the analogy of smokers v.s overweight people is this: If there is no harsh judgement against smokers as compared to fat people, that's solely because the bad behavioral trait with fat people can be seen and the smokers' bad behavioral trait can't be seen (usually). So, this IS indeed a visually-induced prejudice. (and visually-induced prejudices are exactly the same whether it's due to sex, race, size, etc: It's about judging a person SOLELY based on appearance).If that's the case, then your prejudice is entirely based upon personal preference. Sure, you may not want to date a fat woman, but should that very fat woman be denied opportunities just because you don't like her appearance?

This is my last word on the matter (probably!). I will never convince you because, as I said ALL prejudices are basically irrational, so there's no hope.

To everyone else, thanks for indulging my diatribes. I'm not seeking any special favors and I don't want anyone to receive special favors...but I absolutely despise people who so desperately want to hold people down and diminish them for the horrible "sin" of being different...

I was angry for a while, but I'm back to being....

The Happiest Man Alive.

P.S. I have to get back to my "sedate" lifestlye. I never knew that being sedate was so much work, 12 hour days and two new businesses opening up. All this sedation is giving me an ulcer....

[NoFatso]

David

thank you for your comments. I appreciate whether you agree with me or not. My premise is this. This is a fact based discussion. At the end of the discussion, more facts will illuminate the truth. Flat earth theory may be appealing hundreds years ago but it is better for everyone to realize the facts. So, I thank you for your calm and gentlemanly demeanor.

OK, Back to the topic of concern. Are you telling me there is a 80/20 effect?

Irrespective of all the reports on fats/obeseity, you just graciously informed me that although 80% of fat is behavior induced but what REALLY caused FAT is the 20% (assuming there is a 20%) environmental factor? For that, I am appreciative but wait a second, let's assume 20% of this environmental factor causes fat. Let's also assume the air we breath, the water we drink, the "culture" we are in and let's also throw in the "the gene makes me do it" arguments. Let's say I accept all these and also I don't mind to disregard the fact that two generations ago, Americans were much leaner. However, having accepted all these assumptions and disregarding of historical facts, I still cannot explain why the Surgeon General's Call to Action (listed below) nothing but behavior modification strategies to lose weight. Now, you are a polite gentleman with a preference of facts. however you also seem to have a preference of minimize the effect of facts when it makes the heart better. I am just confused.

I thank you for offering your thoughts.

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_whatcanyoudo.htm

[David]

nofatso,

I checked out the website you listed. However, I wasn't disagreeing with the Surgeon General.

I said "weight is not *totally* dictated by behavior. "

The Surgeon General said "For each individual, body weight is the result of a combination of genetic ... influences". (Genetic ones apparently ususually play a small role, but they do play a role, sometimes not so small).

Furthermore, I really like the presentation that website precisely because it *doesn't* evaluate fat people. It sticks to the facts, never once saying fat people are "unethical, lazy, or gluttonous". I agree that there are many very good reason that a person wouldn't want to be overweight, but I don't think we have a right to cast a generic evaluation of their morality.

David

P.S. Miller2k ... I do agree with you, but you do seem to be getting a bit emotional. While this isn't necessarily wrong, it is counterproductive, if you do want to convey your point.

[FnNewGuy]

can't we all just get along?

[NoFatso]

miller2k

calm down. calm down. You are going to get heart attack to be that emotional. OK, read this website and you should feel a lot better. OK? Don't be upset and emotional. This is just a discussion. At the end of the day, you continue your way and the world moves on. Nothing is changed, why get upset about it?

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_glance.htm

[Mill Just]

"the rest of the society doesn't buy this since we already accepted fat is a behavior trait."

...Whoah, Einstein, who is "we"? When did you overthrow the United Nations and become dictator of the world? Does the "we" refer to your own little group of pseudo-Aryans? Or does the "we" refer to the voices in your head?

Whatever the case, sure as hell I'm emotional because you're making a blanket statement about EVERYBODY who is overweight. You don't even know me. How would you feel if I said that all prejudiced people were gay...would you feel that I'm making an unfair generalization about you?

I'm NOT left wing...so there's another one of your generalizations that can be discounted. I don't agree that airlines should be forced to sell two seats for one or make larger seats to accomodate people. That's silly. I want EQUAL treatment for ALL people. That means that it's not right to give fat people (or any other group of people, although white males have received special treatment for centuries) preferred treatment, but it's also not right that a person can be denied the right to support his or her family just because some moron thinks that they're a little on the chunky side. Where the hell did you learn your morals? Is it okay to deny someone the opportunity to make a living just because they don't adhere to how you think all people should be?

The whole concept of "civil rights" is that you are judged on your abilities not on your apperance.

"Now, you can keep getting emotional but you can't deny the facts. "

...Facts? Now when exactly did you provide any facts? Your case is as follows: "In my OPINION, ALL fat people are lazy. I THINK that they have sedate lifestyles. I FEEL that they want special treatment, etc" These are all opinions. Do you know ALL the fat people in the world? Half of them? One third? One percent? One millionth of one percent? Unless you have first hand knowledge of what you are talking about, being so eager to discriminate is insane. The desire to hop on an exer-cycle does not transfer over to the desire to work. I know people who are in top shape who are lazy as hell. Just because YOU are closed-minded and bitter, that doesn't mean that you can't do your job very well. I'm sure you do a good job at work. So, one particular defect doesn't necessarily transfer to other aspects of life. And, yes, I do consider it a defect. But does that mean that an extra Twinkie now and then proves that I'm lazy?

I know that I will never convince you because bigotry in all forms is basically irrational. So, I'm wasting my time with you. I don't care how many links you provide, I KNOW that it's an unhealthy lifestyle...so is being a Pro Football player or a fighter jet pilot...but these are all choices. Maybe you don't agree with them, but who the hell are you? Who the hell are you to decide who can and can't be allowed to make a living? I think that you have some deeper issues to deal with and that all of these "facts" that you are providing are just a cover for a hatred you had all along. So, first you hate women, now fat people? who next? Let's hear the whole laundry list.

As for being lazy...people who make broad generalizations about a group of people are LAZY. You're LAZY because it's a lot easier to say that ALL of these people are this way or that way, instead of taking the time to judge every human being on the content of their character and the depth of their intellect...

To the rest of the board: I'll bet the you guys a nickel that he doesn't get this.