American Women

[NoFatso]

David.

The attached link from US Surgeon General report provides a glance of fat in America with major causes identified as BEHAVIOR patterns.
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_glance.htm

[David]

Let me note that fat is *usually* based *mostly* on behavior. There are exceptions however ... I will note two.

1) My mother. If she eats 1500 calories a day, she just breaks even (she is approximately 5'5" and 220 lbs).

2) There was a special on TV (I think it was on "Aqui y Ahora" on Univision) about a man who ran and biked marathons, and yet who would still be considered about 100 lbs over weight.

My point isn't that behavior doesn't effect weight, but rather, that weight is not *totally* dictated by behavior.

For that matter, even if it is, who are we to criticize their behavior. Sure I might not be attracted to a heavier woman, but I don't have the right to say she's lazy ... I just don't know.

Smiles,
David

P.S. Miller2k, I'm with you all the way.

[NoFatso]

miller2k



wow, you are really angry now. Interesting. Emotions and Labeling aside, I think you have just concurred with me that fat is a behavior trait. A trait developed over years and years of bad behavior. Now that we settled this fundamental point, the remaining two questions are "I want to be fat, so what?" and "fat people are being discriminated like the blacks and all other minorities...."

I want to be fat so what? Unbeknownst to you, we have settled this too. As I said, you can do whatever you like and that's none of my business.

Fat people are discriminated like the blacks. NOoooo. Again, you tried to lump yourself with the "I am black too" to achieve the coat tail effect. Problem is, the rest of the society doesn't buy this since we already accepted fat is a behavior trait. Even the fat community does not buy this line. They know fat is a choice whereas being black is a born trait. You are certainly free to make the choice but like any choice you make in life, the rest of the society will hold you accountable to the choice you made.

Last time I checked, there was DWB (driving while black) but we don't have DWF (not divorce white females .

Now, as to your labeling of "hate" "bigots". This is so typical of left wing ideology that every time when we hold people accountable to their behavior they call it "bigot" "hate". What they want is value neutral so that the rest of society has to adjust to them, to make provision for them, to accommodate them, special treatment. So, some fatso is suing the airlines that the seats are too small and that the airlines could not grant him two seats for the price of one. So, my company's health insurance premium is up because a couple of fatso got heart bypass surgery and since the fatso is in a group plan, MY health insurance goes up. That's OK with me. I don't mind to help out a fellow co-worker for the bad choice he made in his life but to lump fat as a civil right issue? Not sticking my friend.

Now, you can keep getting emotional but you can't deny the facts.

[Mill Just]

once again, in the tradition of so many bigots, you refuse to see the forest for the trees. You make broad, sweeping generalizations based on appearance. I'm not seeking any special treatment, nor would I accept any, but to be perceived as "inferior" or less than valuable as a person, is just wrong...and unconstitutional. Maybe the health/fitness industry is so big because of the way insecure tyrant wannabe's like you want everyone with a few extra pounds to feel like they are committing the greatest sin of all time. Hatred is hatred, bigotry is bigotry..show me someone who hates and judges a group of people for no reason other than appearence and I'll show you someone who hates MANY groups of people. And why is being fat unethical? That's just plain silly. Ethics has to do with what's in your heart and soul, not with what's around your belly. The REAL issue around here is WHY exactly are you so full of rage against a particular group of people? I don't neccesarily care, but you should. It's not healthy to carry around all the rage. If some day I get REALLY overweight and die of a heart attack, why does that affect you? I have my own money that I WORKED for and I can support myself...why do you even care? You're a hateful person and hatred is a lot more dangerous than fat, but I wouldn't deny your right to live as you see fit.

Prejudice is Prejudice...Judging people solely by appearance is wrong. If I said "People who work out are dull, because they spend all their time in a gym"...that would be wrong, stupid, and ignorant. Why? Because I'm associating two behaviors that don't necessarily have anything to do with eachother.

And, by the way, to assume that I have a sedate lifestyle shows your ignorance. You don't know me, you've never seen me...what makes you SOOOOOOO intelligent? Do you believe that ALL must act and think the same as you? Wow...you must be perfect! I would compare my lifestyle to yours anyday and we can see just how "Sedate" my lifestyle is.

It's no wonder that you have problems with women...You must have a sad, sad life...

With regards to the whole race v.s Behavior debate. Forget about the other person...YOU are responsible for your OWN actions. What if you say "I won't hire Catholics (or any other group of people) because they are stupid."? Is that right? Are you judging an individual based on your OWN set of morals? Is it correct to assume that all people who look a certain way must act in a certain way? If you say "I won't hire that woman because she's fat," you're making a moral judgement based ENTIRELY on appearance. How is that different from saying that blacks are lazy, Polish people are stupid, gays are perverts, etc.? Forget about the person you are judging and how they became "different", you are ASSUMING that ALL people who look a certain way MUST have the same characteristics. That's the EXACT SAME thinking that forced blacks to the back of the bus. Stop hiding behind semantics and face your sad, pathetic bigotries. There is NO justification for bigots, racists, and small-minded fools....

[NoFatso]

miller2k

You still FAILED to address the FACT that race is a born trait and fat is a result of a protracted behavior trait. Being "black" is born, genetic. Being "fat" ....you truly need years of entrenched behavior to get to that sorry level. So, your lumping fat with race is false. By the way, black people, provided they are not fat, are pretty and attractive, whereas most fat people (except a minority few) are ugly. Thus most SW (sex workers) are fit and trim and fat SW usually see their pricing drop by more than half. Market pricing rules!!

As to your reference that "hey, I have a right to do what I want and I want to be fat.... so what?" Just like what if I choose to be messy, to be lazy, to go on welfare and become a burden of the society, to do drugs, to get heart attack, to get diebetis. Yes, so what? As I libertarian, I would say that's none of my biz and it won't borther me a bit (except my tax $ is wasted on these people...but there are lots of injustice around so I am not going to worry about this). However, if you say as an employer, is it right to judge a person who is fat/overweight knowing that he/she has all the bad behavior traits? You bet. I am paying $ to hire a person and I want to know that this person has a high level of expectation of performance. This is NOT discrmination but have discrminating standards.

The Fat community has been trying to lump their cause with the gay/race issue. It's not sticking because everybody knows that being fat is unhealthy, unethical just like nobody wants to be perceived as lazy, gluttony. Thus weight reduction is a $3billion business here in the U.S.

Now, it is alright for you to continue to claim being discriminated while at the same time keep sitting around with a sedate lifestyle and stuffing fat into your system. That's your life choice. Just that you will continue to fight this so called "discrimination" of yours for the rest of your life and even many fat people do not buy your cause.

[Mill Just]

nofatso..who says that everyone has to adhere to YOUR idea of what's right and proper? What if someone decides that they don't WANT to eat fruits and vegetables or exercise (not that they are lazy, but they are exercising their freedom to be indviduals)? If someone doesn't want to be exactly how you want them to be, does that mean that they are lazy and worthless?...or does that mean that they are merely making a life choice? Of course, you're also free to make idiotic generalizations. (religion is also a personal choice rather than a biological..are Jews bad people just because you might be Christian..wait, don't answer that..I don't want to know). Being overweight is a behavioral problem with its roots in genetics. Similar to alcoholism, a person is pre-disposed to that certain behavior. Of course that doesn't mean that the person HAS TO over eat. Also, It's clear that a having a healthier diet and life style is better for you physically. You most likely will live a longer, healthier life if you are in better shape. But if a person chooses to live a certain way and it doesn't hurt you in any way, then why all the condemnation?

Prejudice against fat people is the last refuge of the racist. The only acceptable prejudice now is against fat people, but it's EXACTLY the same as other forms of prejudice. It's the judging of a group of people based solely on appearance. "Fat people are lazy because they don't exercise" is like saying "Black people are lazy criminals". It's making a broad generalization based entirely on appearance. You assume that a person who looks a certain way MUST act a certain way--That's so judgemental that it's ridiculous. Not wanting to lift weights has nothing to do with other types of work. I'm overweight myself and I routinely put in 16 hour days, working double of what the slimmer people did. Even now, when I should be relaxing in Mexico, I put in 12 hour days during the week and most weekends I'm travelling to smaller towns to volunteer with orphans. Sure I eat a lot, but I enjoy it. Sure, I have sex a lot, but I also enjoy that. I don't judge people solely on their appearance (people with glasses are NOT necessarily smarter, blondes are NOT necessarily less intelligent, etc). It's the sign of a small intellect to think that EVERYONE must have the exact same set of standards. I like the fact that others have different values. The world is a beautiful place BECAUSE we are so different...

[NoFatso]

"People SHOULD be judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin, the size of their ass, etc."

A friend of mine complained I am being harsh on overweight folks. He said, "Hey, you don't know, my genes did it to me. I can't change" I laughed and responded, "NO, your genes did not do it to you. Cheetohs did it to you, KFC did it to you, Super Big Meal did it to you, "Super Size" did it to you. Chulapa did it to you....."

We judge people by their content of character. Best benchmarking of character is by looking at the person's behavior. Weight is manifestation of years of behavior pattern. Reports from US Surgeon General and US Dept. of Health state that weight is a bahavior issue. Thus unlike skin, race, sexual orientation which is a born trait, weight is a behavior trait.

Now, why weight is a good reflection of one's character? Weight management involves only two issues. Diet and modest amount of exercise. Diet, keeping a good diet requires good pattern of healthy habits, good discipline of maintaining a balance diet. Exercise, modest amount of exercise, as in walking, light weight lifting, playing balls etc. requires some personal discipline, time management and motivation. If a person is overweight. This is a protracted results of laziness, undiscipline, gluttony. When people say, please look beyond the weight and see the person's heart. I say, "no need, his/her heart is already there in front of you. Just judge the behavior"

To put weight in the same category of race, gender, sexual orientation bias is mimimize the civil rights movement. Yeah. I bet MLK fought for our right to sit around, get fat and stuffing chalupa to get to the Jumbo Size Shape.

[Mill Just]

Phil...you're dead right about almost everything you said, although I would disagree about the analogy with the child. This implies that women are somehow less wise or less savy than men. (I've found that to be almost the opposite). The real problem is that women often make unreasonable demands and the men, in their hurry to "close the deal" are too eager to give in. This is the reason we are left frustrated. Women have always had the upper hand when it comes to choosing who to be with...that's normal and reasonable. The problem is with us because we don't clearly state up front what we want. There are always the "lets just be friends" girls who will soak up all the attention and money, taking advantage of a man's feelings. But for every woman like that, there's a man who sits back and allows it to happen. Men need to be responsible for their own actions by stating up front, after the first date "I want a romantic relationship..how about you?" This is done in Mexico: The man has to "declare" his feelings for the woman and then he knows right off the bat what he's in for. My point all along was that women have their own reasons for acting the way they do and that we should just worry about ourselves and cleaning up our own acts instead of crying about the "evil" American woman.

Sin...No hard feelings. We are in the same boat. I was merely being the Devil's Advocate, trying to point out our own culpability in the matter.

Nofatso--I understand your frustration. I worked in corporate America awhile too. But what you need to remember is that those stupid details were put there for a reason (it's been blown out of proportion, though). There was a time when a woman was indeed told to lose a few pounds or lose her job...or to sleep with the boss if she wanted to keep working there. These are facts. These crazy PC laws are there to make sure that these attrocities never happen again. Sure, women take advantage of them all the time, but until we can think of a nice middle-ground, they could very well be necessary. There is some truth in the "PC" aspect, though. People SHOULD be judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin, the size of their ass, etc. Sure, things get out of hand sometimes. But once again, I'd rather play the PC system than go back to the days before woman's rights, civil rights, etc. The only "game" being played is the one of RESPECT.

So, I love a good fight, but I think that we're all pretty much on the same side on this issue....

[NoFatso]

phil

regarding your statement " that I hold women up to the same moral code that I hold men to". I understand your true meaning. However, be very careful. In this politically correct world, people of evil mind can hurt you with statements like that.

In fact, when it comes to dealing with ALLWiBOS (bear in mind that UFC is wrong and I plead guilty), you have to proceed with extreme caution. The MO is, smile, be exceedingly polite, speak in "value neutral language" and most importantly, create an impression that you are part of the feminist, liberal movement (doesn't hurt to tell everybody that you voted for Gore).

I had this personal experience which was truly awakening. I work in a major corporation. About a year ago, I had a secretary assigned to me who was truly a lousy performer. In addition to a poor performer, she came in late, called in sick all the time and I caught her sleeping on the job twice! So, I called HR seeking a replacement. HR told me that I have to be extremely careful when it comes to situation like this. The HR officer, who is a woman, provided detailed strategy as how I could get rid of her. Without going into details, the bottomline is, when I caught her sleeping on the job again, I quietly get another FEMALE colleague to personally verified the sleeping beauty, I documented the time and date and the duration of her sleep...... so every of her violation I get witness, not any witness but FEMALE witnesses. After about a monthy's wrangling, my secretary was finally fired but only after our company paid her one month's severance. Yes, I know, you will say this is amazing, I could have called her in and said, "You are a poor performer, we pay you well and you didn't do your job. You don't give a professional presentation. You come in with jeans and T shirt, hair messed up, cigarette stains on your fingers. By the way, god damn it, cut off that cheetohs and loose that 50lbs." No NO NO, can't say that. This is the world of political correctness, the world of "value neutral" where UFC is named ALLWiBOS or "NORMAL". So, you got to play the game.

[Sinanju Master]

Phil, my bad for not probing your mind and further questioning you to clarify your point. You hit the nail on the god-damn head with pinpoint accuracy in every point you made in this most recent post. I'm sure there are a FEW good American women out there, but they are as rare as the dodo bird, and I will NOT budge in my opinion on THAT. I gotta admit though that reading you elaborate further on your point was like reading the freshly inscribed stone tablets from Sinai! LOL Yes, I will concede 100% that in that respect, it is OUR fault for the social conditioning of American women today. What I was trying to communicate to miller2k (although I didn't do that very effectively since I posted once or twice before I thought it through) was that I follwed the rules of not acting like a neanderthal and metaphorically knocking a woman over the head, dragging her back to my cave and demanding sex. So many times in the past, I did as instructed by the parental units and acted the part of the gentleman but the spoiled behavior made that a moot point. That can be extremely frustrating, especially whe they (American women) will give you NO CLUE to help you out. Contrast that to when I have gone overseas numerous times not even looking for sex or even hinting at the promise of being a woman's "ticket outta here", and I would encounter women who were so classy that it made them seem that they were a totally different species from American women. So, now that I was able to better convey what I was trying to say, and admitting that I should have thought before I spoke, no hard feelings, miller2k.

[Phil]

To miller2k, nofatso, sinanjumaster:

I just wanted to say I love this debate between all of you. I feel that you all have valid points. As far as some of you disagreeing with each other on certain points I think that's cool. Not everybody will see eye to eye on the issue of American women. I'm writing because I want to put my two cents in on this debate.

I was the guy that posted:
"The American woman is a monster created by the American man."
I forget if I worded it exactly like that but you get the point.

What I wanted to do is further explain what I meant by that. Some of you brought up the point of women using men in the dating arena, etc. That kind of goes with my statement above. In my opinion the American man has made American women this way by catering to their every whim. I once read an article talking about how in all of the wealthiest societies throughout history, the richer a society became the more it catered to it's women. And I would like to add the more spoiled they became too.

The best way for me to explain it is like this: In my mind, women are a lot like children. If you are raising a child that you let play and have fun but you set some ground rules on what you will accept as far as the child's behavior, then that child will more than likely grow up to love and respect you because you let them have fun but you also set some code of disclipline up for them to abide by.

On the other hand, let's say you have a child and you let them do what they want to do all the time. Anything they want, you give it to them. One day you come to find the child drinking rubbing alcohol and you try to stop him. The child is going to have a fit, because you won't let him drink the rubbing alcohol, even though you are trying to save the child. The child is so used to getting waht they want that they will get mad because you won't let him drink the rubbing alcohol, even though you are trying to protect him.

In this example what I'm trying to show is that in a way that is what has happened to women in this country. Our society has catered to women , mainly because of the feminist drive, as a way to apologize for all of these years of oppression. Now men just bend over and give women what ever they want. A monster has been created to the point that even when a man is trying to help or protect a woman, she doesn't want to hear it. She wants to do what she wants to do.

Basically what I'm saying is that American women have been socially conditioned to be this way. Just like the women of Brazil have been socially conditioned to be the way they are. In my dealings a lot of people think that I'm real hard on women. It makes me laugh because I feel that I'm normal and that a lot of men are too far the other way. They allow women to do a lot of the things that they do. I once told a friend, that was telling me some of his women problems, that I hold women up to the same moral code that I hold men to. He said he didn't agree with that because a woman can give you p-ssy, but a man can't. My reply was that was the main reason I did it.

What I'm trying to say is that when men cater to women just because they're women you create a selfish monster that will use you as a means to an end. And the ironic part is that women are so unhappy by this themselves. Because I travel I notice how it's a lot of unhappy women in America, especially some of these women who just use men. Notice how some of the gold-diggers, and real materialistic women act. Do you notice that you don't really see many happy gold-digger type women, even the ones that have succeeded in their goals? Psychologically there are many reasons for this which it would take forever for me explain.

The MAIN point that I'm trying to get at is that, there are some good women in America who see exactly what the men see, but they probably make up a very, very small percent of the general population. Unfortunately, I have to say that I have given up on American women. I presently live in this country for purely economic reasons: America holds exceptional opportunities for jobs and education. As far my as my life with women I only deal with girls in Brazil. I feel they match me better. I feel that it actually helps me stay focused on my job, career and college by knowing that there are some real normal women out there but they just happen to not live in this country.

[Ting Tong]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nofatso
ALL WOMEN IN THE ENTIRE THIRD WORLD. That's a huge generalization. Dialectically, this cannot be supported by facts and this is not logical.


I am surprised to see a discussion about woman in Third World in the forum of topic about american woman. Moreover Friends some people (in USA) do not know what is third world. The third world is called most of the Asia (leave some advanced countries like Japan) and Africa. For Americans who has born in America & Grown up in America it is impossible to understand the realities of third world. In most of the muslim countouries - woman can be thrown out of home with three time reciting Talak - Talak - Talak (Divorce Divorce Divorce), no court, no judge and compensation as agreed at the time of marriage. Some countouries determining sex before birth is banned legally becuase people will kill the duaghter before birth. The daughter are sold for a mere 2 USD or 5 USD. Mostly no education for girls & no good food. That is a real shame and the condition of woman - mostly in third world. So this generalised statement is actually a fact in Third world.

[Mill Just]

just a couple of more things and then you can go about your bitter "realities" in peace.

Nofat...you are a reasonable person, but YOU are the one making broad generalizations. You assume (ASS-U-ME, as sin would say) that the generalizations you make are correct , (but mine aren't) solely because you WANT for them to be true. Listen, there is no way to proven ANYTHING beyond a shadow of a doubt so we go on what we see and experience. I've experienced a lot and I've formulated opinions based on those observations. If you put filters over your eyes, you will only see what you want to see.

Your example of men who are married to "normal"women is true. But are they married to these women because of true desire and appreciation...or is it because they've "settled for less" (as you say)? If it's the latter, then they will never be really happy. Their lack of happiness is due to the fact that they have been tricked into believing the commercials on TV and the ads in the magazines.

"women don't know when they're being evil?" C'mon, nofat...that is just borderline sociopathic. What will you say next: "Women are animals, 3/4 of a human being?" You're more intelligent than that.

Sin...no amount of "facts" could persuade you to stop "pissing and moaning". Opinions are just that...opinions. If you choose to dwell in your own dark heart, then have a ball.

What you've both failed to realize is that I've said in every one of my posts that women are guilty as well as the men. But you refuse to acknowledge that because you feel more comfortable putting ALL the blame on women. I would've gone on about how women are fucked-up as well, but that opinion was well represented already and I wanted to point out that we have responsibility in the matter as well. Over the last few days, you've proven all of my theories to be correct.

This is over if you wish because you don't want to hear the truth...the WHOLE TRUTH. I'm wasting my time trying to have a discussion with people who are only interested in dwelling in their own misery. I'll send you a box of Kleenex and a blow-up doll so you can be happy.

[NoFatso]

Thanks sinjumaster. Me too, I am tired to continue with this discussion. Afterall, we are trying to offer "the light, the truth, the salvation" such that nobody got hurt by buying into all these little trickeries. I had a woman friend (we only slept together from time to time and not dating) who told me that women can be more dangerous than men since when men are "evil", they knew that. They knew they are doing "evil", as in cheating on a spouse, being a player etc. However, she said, when a woman is being evil, she does not know that. She is being so successful to internalize the entire "evil" act as good, honesty, nice. They said the best liar is those who truly believe, live the lie. Thus, we keep having these "good friends", "necessity" and most men buy this

Anyway, as I said, case close. Let's go back to hunting and "heaven on heart" issues. Have a good day!

[Sinanju Master]

nofatso, how is it that you can understand with crystal clarity what I was saying, but miller2k (He's had far too many Millers) twists what I said more than any pretzel could be twisted? He will ASS-U-ME (miller2k, you made an ASS out of U not ME) that from a couple of posts that he knows me in my entirety. But alas, I was hoping that after my initial anger (perhaps I responded too quickly, but American women are a button pusher) that he would be able to provide intelligent debate supported by the facts that you, nofatso, called his bluff on. In fact, I'm wasting my breath even further discussing this idiot who refuses to acknowledge that American women are guilty of the bs I charged them with and that you reinforced through your post. Keep up the good work nofatso.