American Women

[NoFatso]

mr sinjumaster. You stated the truth. Behold!!

Again, Mr. Miller2k twisted your statement to fit his gentle theory. What you are stating is a simple fact; if a guy takes a woman out for dinner, movie, whatever because he has romantic or sexual interest in her. It is just ethically correct for the woman to let the guy know in no uncertain terms on the second or even first date whether his interest will be reciprocated. Simple as that. What Mr. sinjumaster stated is a common phenonmenon that many women, even they have no romantic or sexual interest in the guy, they still string him along for freebies. I have had women sharing with me stories that they "like" the guy "as friends but I can't imagine sleeping with him or see him as a b/f". So, I said to these women, "wait a minute, you know the guys is interested in you romantically and sexually and you also know you are not interested in him. So why not tell him point blank?" The women's point is "well, may be we can develop something in the future but in the mean time, I like his company. May be he is just interested in me as a friend" I said, "yeah, if a guy wants bonding, he calls his buddies. Also, when is the last time you find some "friends" developed into a "laid" (fat....Oops I meant Wide Body chance). Furthermore, you like his company ONLY when you have no other dates and ONLY when you are so bored and even then, you are not giving him sex." So, sinjumaster. You spoke the truth.

[NoFatso]

My response to the gentleman from mexico.

1. The LOOK thing. Statements about the "look" and my UFC illustrative, you are still writing from "impression" and "belief" and can't relate facts to support your points. If your contention is UFC is not politically correct, I grant you that and here on out, how about "alternatively looking lady with wide body shape (ALLWiBOS)"? OK, back to our dialects, your contention is men put look above everything thus they suffer from men/women relationship. I state to you that you are wrong because there is NO fact suporting your statement, your statement is pure hearsay. How to get the facts to substantiate this? Just look around you, your friends, your male relatives, male co-workers, go to a shopping mall, anywhere. Majority of men are dating or married to plain Jane or ALLWiBOS? Thus to say that men put look above all else is not supported by facts. NOW, if you say, most men WISH they have supermodel gf or wives. that I concur. However, here you are talking about WISH versus ACTUAL BEHAVIOR. Wish does not count, it's the behavior.
2. Sex workers are Demeaning and nobody wants to engage in that profession. My friend. First of all, I never stated that every sex workers are happy. Just like not every lawyer is happy, every physician is happy, every McDonald cashier is happy. The discussion began when you stated in your posting that women in third world are treated a little better than "livestock". I am contending your facts that this blanket statement must not be true because you are talking about ALL WOMEN IN THE ENTIRE THIRD WORLD. That's a huge generalization. Dialectically, this cannot be supported by facts and this is not logical. Now, since you brought up the "sad sex worker" scenario. You are right, all my amigas in Brasil wish to leave the profession and every time I ask them to leave the profession for other work they will tell me about the "necessity" story. The reality is, my friend, there are lots of jobs they can get that pay very little wages. However, they don't want to do it. You are too easy to be persuaded by their statement of "necessity". The truth is, there are lots of single mother who toil in low paying jobs and support their kids. So, THIS IS A VOLUNTARY CHOICE they made. Many of them are happy doing it since the money is great, life is easy and many love sex! Would they want to leave the profession if money is not an issue? Yes! Hey... I have a good career and I love my job, but if money is not an issue, you bet I will quit tomorrow and move down to Rio de Janeiro

My gentleman friend. I do respect you a lot. You seem to have the heart and the kindness. I like that. However, I suggest that you tend to view thing in black and white terms and put in too much wishful thinking w/o verifying that with facts of reality which is almost always in spectrum of greys.

[Mill Just]

Boy, PAL...the 'REAL WORLD" you live in is bitter, angry, and hateful. My REAL WORLD is full of positive encounters with women who appreciate being treated nicely without being expected to roll over and have sex for the price of a movie ticket and a dinner. Of course, I've had my fair share of negative experiences as well, but I guess I'm better equiped to handle these things. You fall apart and blame the world for your own lack of charm,sensitivity,etc.

"I was taught by my folks to respect women."

...Wow! You're folks would be so proud of you now.

If women have taken advantage of you, then accept your own culpability. If you take a woman out to dinner, lavish her with gifts and/or attention, but she never wants to take your relationship past friendship. She is wrong for leading you on, but you are also wrong because you only showed her 'RESPECT' because you wanted something in return (sex, affection, whatever)

Pal, lemme break it down to you REEEEEEEAL simple like: You are the type of person who will never be satisfied because you are rotten from the inside. Why would any self-respecting woman want to be involved with a man so full of loathing?

Yes, many women are awful, but how will your moaning about poor, ol' victimized you help the situation? You're just trying to affirm your own sad state, to justify your own failures ("it's not me, it's them). To use your own words: "Am I pissed that they [CodeWord140] and moan and wish for things that are not within the realm of possibility?" Yes, you should be because you are the biggest pisser and moaner of them all.

Keep up with the self-pity and bitterness and I'll just be here hanging around and having a wonderful time...Happiness is the best revenge.

From: The Happiest Man Alive.

[Sinanju Master]

miller2k, lemme break it down to you reeeeeeeal simple like. am i pissed at the doublespeak that american women engage in yet expect american men to crack like the code based on the navajo language in the second world war? yes. am i pissed at the stupid games they play (wasting a man's time and resources without so much as a single thought that they may be acting like the gold-digging leeches that give american women their well-deserved bad name) when all one is trying to do is to treat them with the respect that every human being deserves? yes. to go further on that note, i was taught by my folks to respect women. i actually do that, but a lot of american women do not deserve my respect, much less common courtesy. am i pissed that they [CodeWord140] and moan and wish for things that are not within the realm of possibility (finding and marrying a single fabio lookalike who is a billionaire and slavishly dotes on her)? yes. pal, we live in a country where it is the accepted norm for society to bash men without fear of reprisal or an angry, justifiable retort. this society on the other side of the coin will fall all over themselves to help women by attempting to bring down men, with you in the lead. if they didn't enjoy being so devious and rep001hing and bragging about it to their girlfriends as if it were some profession in which they take great pride, i would have no problem with american women. however, i live in the real world. i cry dry tears for american women. as for laying blame, i'm all for calling it like i see it. besides, where did you see me absolve myself of any blame? you didn't. you ass-u-me... spell it again pal and maybe you'll get the message, but since i live in the real world, that would be asking too much.

[Mill Just]

nofatso....I have lived in Mexico for more than two years now and have lived in the heart of Mexican society, away from the more Westernized Tourist areas. I have seen first hand woman upon woman have her dreams denied merely because of the fact that they had the "misfortune" to be born female. The toy stores here are filled with toys for boy, but only a few dolls for girls. Why? I was told that girls don't need to be playing, they need to help their mothers. Many fathers don't send their daughters to school because "they will only be mothers and wives anyway". Now, once these women are older, they have no education or leverage in their relationship. They have babies, cook dinner, and keep their mouths shut. Take the time to ask the average housewife here about her life, it will almost always start out "well, I wanted to be a .... when I was a girl." Then it will end, "but then I got married." Even when they are in the workplace, they make less than half of what a man would make. The playing field is getting more even now, but a "professional" woman such as a doctor or a lawyer is still treated with contempt and, if she is married, is still expected to be a domestic slave in the home. Beatings among ALL women are considered part of a normal married life. And if she goes to the police? She will most likely hear what a neighbor of mine heard when she got fed up with the abuse and went to the authorities. The officer basically replied to her charge of abuse by saying "...well, what did you do? You need to go home and work things out with your husband. Maybe he had a bad day and you did something to get him angry." Is this what you want? Is this your idea of utopia?

I don't know who you've talked with, but the VAST majority of the prostitutes that I've come in contact are in this line of business out of necessity. I would say about 98% are "pros" for reasons ranging from: they have children to support (a single mother here is regarded as a pariah, someone to be avoided. And even when they do find a "normal" job, they can't support their family on what a woman makes.) to: they have a drug habit to support. How many normal women without a dire need for cash (especially in very religious countries) would be willing to choose "prostitute" as a career choice? Even if they now live in nice houses and drive nice cars, does that make them somehow less victimized? If it makes you feel better to think that they are doing the job because they like it, then that's fine. It's a tough pill to swallow when we realize that we are, at the very least, participating in another person's downward spiral. I've accepted this and try to act accordingly.
...also, you said :

"2. Putting "looks" above everything else. I don't see the evidence. " and then a few lines later you mention a "UFC", as you say, as being somehow degraded. If looks were not put above all else, then why would she be considered degraded in your eyes? You proved my point. Are you somehow less of a man than your neighbor because he has the nicer car or bigger house?
If a man wants to judge a woman, why is it wrong when a woman judges a man? Is it wrong because now YOU are the one being judged? Judging purely on physical attributes is not how WINNERS are made, it's how RACE HORSES are mated. Why is an overweight or "ugly" woman "inferior"? Are you inferior if you don't have 10 million dollars in the bank? Listen, to some extent, we all judge on appearance, but this should not be the PRIMARY factor in deciding our future relationships. This may seem to be off-topic, but it has everything to do with why modern American women can be so difficult--they are merely being as superficial to us as we are to them. Of course, this is not right, but we shouldn't whine about our poor selves when we do the same thing to them all the time, just in different forms.

Sin...the last paragraph of your previous post just points out how much of a misanthrope you are. Why is it that you think I'm being controlled by my "mistress" if I don't agree with your bitter rhetoric? Maybe you've had bad dealings with women and now you've rationalized it as "all their fault". Well, I've had bad dealings with women as well, but am I bitter? No. You need to look inside and figure out why you are so full of rage. The courts, workplace, media, etc. didn't make women into an opressed gender, backward thinking men like you did. I know that there's no reasoning with people like you (you probably also adhere to various other conspiracy theories such as the tri-lateral comission, Roswell, etc) because there are some people who will ALWAYS blame their own short-comings on others. Whatever allows you to sleep better at night.

Listen guys, we are all in the same boat. American women ARE difficult, but bitterness and hatred are not what is needed. We need to be grown ups and accept responsibility for what we've done (or participated in).

[Sinanju Master]

miller2k, a retort to your post....

"How many of the men who post messages about money-hungry, superficial women would be willing to give the plain-Jane woman a second look."

You ASSUME (spell the word, please) that each and every one of us overlooks the Plain Jane. I know better than to do that. I've done "investigation" into a few Plain Janes to see whether or not they'd be worthy company. Since they were NOT supermodels, I'd determined that they'd have to develop themselves in ways that lazy, uptight supermodels feel they DON'T have to.


"Women are experiencing growing pains as a gender and this, my friend IS a monster that we DID create because we held women as inferiors and took advantage of them for ages."

This may be true to a point, but also figure that WOMEN are the guiding force in mating choices. WE have nothing to do with it. THEY are the ones who wield the power. We are just product on a shelf to them. The more the product, the more likely it will be chosen.

"A civilized man will sit back, weed through the head cases, and find the female gems"

That's what I'm doing nowadays, pal.

"The PROBLEM that YOU speak of is the one where women refuse to be kept down and treated as equipment."

Say, didn't I just address that in an aforementioned paragraph?

"Women are so difficult because WE created a foul atmosphere for them and when they try to break out of it or when they respond with equally stupid actions, then WE curse them. Grow up."

Yes, the courts, the workplace, the media and SOCIETY have all made the poor women an oppressed gender. I'll try to sympathize with that bullshit while I'm removing the heel that they're grinding in our backs in an effort to "right" the wrongs of millennia of oppression. I'd go further into the INEQUALITY between the sexes and what today's actions could turn into "tomorrow" but you'd find it unbelievable and you wouldn't be able to process it. miller2k until you find a voice of your own, go back to your mistress who pulls your strings and speaks for you.

[NoFatso]

Also, "miller2k" your statement

"in the third world where women are only slightly more valuable than livestock".

What are you talking about? Is this your theory or factual observation? Now, honest to you, I have never been to all the countries in the third world. I have only visited Brazil, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, countries where there is a healthy, practical policy relating to commercial sex, I can only speak from my personal observation and experience. All of these countries, most sex workers got into business on their own volition and especially in Brazil, they are treated very nice. They drive expensive cars, live in upscale neigbourhood. I am NOT talking from a "dreamland". I know many of these girls and we are friends. I visited their houses and stayed part time with them. I hanged with them and their friends. I did not see them being treated as livestock. What are your talking about? I think you may want to be more specific and provide a factual, personal observation. Again, I have not visited all the third world countries and first hand observed the FACTs personally. However, beware of books/materials from the media which tend to exeggerate and report with a one sided incomplete view.

[NoFatso]

"sinjumaster". Thank you for your kind remarks. You are being gracious. I am humbled by your comments.

"miller2k". I appreciate your discussion but I think you misunderstood most of the comments posted here. We are NOT talking about disrespecting women, we are NOT talking about putting women down, we are NOT talking about degrading women. We are talking about equality of the sexes and how, as men, we should manage OUR own behavior such that the playing field is LEVEL. Bottomline is, if you let women taking advantage of you, then you WILL BE taken advantage of. Just look around this board, I see so many postings that the guys are truly nice people who are willing to "fall in love" and give whatever money they have to the women. So, the pussy cats are the GUYS, they ARE the soft hearted ones. You talked about "ages of discrimination" and that men put "looks" above everything else. I would disagree with you.
1. "ages of discrimination" I can't comment on "ages" since I was not there ages ago. In my professional and personal life, I lead a life such that I respect women as co-equal. I hope you are not talking about monetary compensation like what they are talking about re: African Americans.

2. Putting "looks" above everything else. I don't see the evidence. Just look around you, most men are totally happy to marry a UFC or let their beauty queen (formerly) degraded to become UFC. Most men are happy to have a plain Jane and kowtow to her wimps. Personally, I only know ONE single guy who only date or marry a super model type woman. Fact is, many men are too happy to have a UFC as a g/f rather than go for the highest. So, the fact does not support your argument. So, men need to set a higher level of expectation from their women.
Now, let's ASSUME what you stated is true, that men are too anxious to go after supermodel types and neglected the "UFC with good hearts", the "smart plain Jane". What's wrong with that? If Joe Blow likes pretty women, women who take care of themselves, who dress nicely, well groomed, who eat right, exercise to keep fit and not degrade themselves to the level of UFC, that shows Joe Blow have a high level of expectation of himself, that he only chooses to date women who have high level of expectation of themselves. This is GOOD, this is how winners are made, leaders are created. Why do we have to settle for inferiority? Secondly, why do we have to assume a "good hearted" woman, a "smart" woman has to be UFC, plain Jane? This is as if to assume good healthy low fat food must be expensive and difficult to come by. In essence this is setting yourself a low expectation.

[Mill Just]

sin....yes, it's true that men are driven by the visual. that doesn't mean, though, that we must act on our primal urges. if so, then we would be running around [CodeWord125] women at will. the problem begins and ends with the fact that we teach and are taught that superficial aspects are most important. how many of the men who post messages about money-hungry, superficial women would be willing to give the plain-jane woman a second look. the majority want supermodels, but beautiful women have been taught by our culture to over value themselves because they have the stereotypical features of beauty. it's like if you had a car that you knew your neighbor wanted. wouldn't you hold out for more money if you knew that he would absolutely pay it? why should a woman be willing to settle for "less" (at least in her own mind) when she has been taught that she is much more valuable to men?

this takes me back to my original point. if a woman's entire value is the physical, then why is it wrong for her to judge us on the same superficial scale? sure it's wrong, but both sexes are wrong. it is not out natural role to be animals and hump the most fertile female. but it is a woman's natural role to seek a man who will be supportive. the problem is that there are about a million mixed signals out there. this is not a contest so there is no need to defeat the women.

women are experiencing growing pains as a gender and this, my friend is a monster that we did create because we held women as inferiors and took advantage of them for ages. so, in a sense, we are suffering for the injustices of our ancestors. the misanthropes of the world will become frustrated and use this to lash out at women. a civilized man will sit back, weed through the head cases, and find the female gems.

by the way, the real problem between the sexes is in the third world where women are only slightly more valuable than livestock. this may not be a problem for you because you would be at the top of the food chain, but would you want your daughter, sister, mother, etc. to be thought of in this way? the problem that you speak of is the one where women refuse to be kept down and treated as equipment. this may be difficult to hear because it's a lot easier to blame our own problems on the actions of others, but it's the truth. women are so difficult because we created a foul atmosphere for them and when they try to break out of it or when they respond with equally stupid actions, then we curse them. grow up.

[Sinanju Master]

HIGH FIVE, nofatso! I swear, dude, you must be the part of my mind that speaks out whilst I'm asleep! Yes, all the s*** you stated is sadly true... What really makes me scratch my head is that a lot of the time, they expect us to blindly accept the lines they throw at us: "I just wanna be friends" and other similar BS that makes up the female arsenal of misspeak. After much reflection, I was able to see the mess for what it was and decided that the UFC (God, I LOVE that term! LOLOLOLOL) and other variants are actually AIDING me in weeding out the psychos, the liars, the BS artists and the users. It's like they have a large placard resting in front of them saying: "Lemon" or "Lying Skank User" or what have you. Keep up the good fight, nofatso!

[NoFatso]

Guys, Equality of the Sexes is good and I support wholeheartedly. However, what we have here in the US is NOT equality of the sexes. The field is tilted toward the women and it is not equal. In our communities, workplaces what we have is not equality but a general favoritism toward the women. Case in point, in most jurisdiction, the court is always in favor of the women. In the workplace, it is much easier to lay off a non performing male employee than a female employee. It is just a reality. Back to men/women relationship. The scenario is not equal when we (men) accept the fact that:
1. Dating UFC (ugly fat chicks) is alright. We date UFC don't take of themselves as in dressing nicely, keeping fit and trim, nice hair and well groomed. As men continue to disguise this loser mentality with the "it's the heart, not the look".
2. Spend time and money on women who treat men as "good friend", "soul mate - no laid style". If you are one of those "hey, let's be friend" and getting no sex while keep spending money on her, that's not respecting women, that's not equality, that's just plain stupidity.
3. You are the sole breadwinner of the family, yet all the economic and family decision has to get her final approval. (I have friends who would forsake good career opportunity because their wives do not want to move to the city of the new employer).

[Sinanju Master]

"As men, though, we need to realize that we've created this monster. We need to stop feeding a culture that only judges women by their looks. Because, as long as we look for tits and asses, the women will look for wallets and sportscars. Superficiality breeds superficiality."


Men did not "create" this "monster" as you call it. It is called Biology and men have "judged" women for their physical attributes since BEFORE the beginning of recorded time. ACCEPT IT! It is our natural role, but we don't adhere to it as steadfastly as our Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon ancestors did. Regrettably, another thing we don't do as our ancestors did is to exhibit a backbone and put our foot down in the presence of a woman. We, as Amercan men have been so castrated by the Feminist movement that we are conditioned to think that anything a male thinks as positive is oppressive to the advancement of women. Men will ALWAYS judge women by their physical attributes and women will ALWAYS judge men by their ability to provide.... to one degree or another. The "PROBLEM" between the sexes is MORE pervasive here in the US. Women want the metaphorical penis while retaining their feminine qualities. In other words, they want to "right" the alleged wrongs of 5 millenia of "men oppressing women". BUT... in a sense, men DID create this problem... they allowed women to walk all over them in their march to "equality". Equality to women means a woman's heel twisting in a man's back. The sooner we can see that, the better... Myself, I would never treat a woman like crap, BUT she had better know tha she will NEVER RULE ME.....

[Mill Just]

..Having lived in Mexico for almost 2 years now I can safely say that basically women are women. It's just that American women have much higher standards. They've been taught to look for perfection while Mexican women are just happy with a good provider who doesn't smack them around or get drunk.

... in the USA women are taught now to be independent and aggressive, but they are still conditioned to be "feminine and passive". So, They want (and expect) the best of both worlds. They rightfully want to make the same pay as a man, but then they also want the man to assume all of the financial responsibilities of a relationship. Men put up with it because they want to get laid, but I've noticed more and more American men getting fed up and going international to look for women.

As men, though, we need to realize that we've created this monster. We need to stop feeding a culture that only judges women by their looks. Because, as long as we look for tits and asses, the women will look for wallets and sportscars. Superficiality breeds superficiality.

The women need to realize that they can't play both sides (maybe they can, but they shouldn't). They can't be as superficial as a man and yet expect not to be treated the same way. They can't be equal in the workplace, pampered in the bedroom, equal in the living room, pampered in the restaurant, etc. This wears guys down. Many men are so confused that they don't even know how to act.

Of course, this is a generalization. I've always been lucky to be with women who are confident and sure of themselves. These women DO exist, but they are difficult to find. Most women, as well as men, are merely playing roles.

...either way, though, I'm glad to be living in Mexico.

[NoFatso]

Totally agree with your comment. You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Problem is, most of us (i.e. guys) are living in dream land. I personally know two guys, yes two, who incurred a credit card debt of $5,000 and $10,000 respectively from their g/f who later broke up with them and refused to pay up. Both are genuinely nice honorable gentlemen but they have no clue when it comes to dealing with women. All along, they told me "how proud they are that in America, women are treated equal and fair." Equal and Fair? Do you call this equal and fair? So, American guys have no clue and they are doomed before the game even begins.

As to foreign women. I don't know if your observation is accurate. You are probably treated much better by these foreign women than they treat their average compatriots. Many reasons, the exotic effect you have over them, the "walking dollar sign" effect, the "American passport" effect, the"ticket out of hell hole" effect, all these combined will ensure you receive much better treatment than an average Joe in their country. Just imagine Tom Cruise in America, do you think many American women will dare to play Tom Cruise? Nicole Kidman tried but Cruise divorced her one day before California would define their marriage as a perpetual deal. So everything is relative.

[Sinanju Master]

nofatso, yer right.... to a point. A lot of it can be attributed to the guy attempting to show interest without trying to be an uncouth beast. HE plays by rules that do not try to create an unfair advantage as women do 99.9% of the time. In such a case, the guy tries to meet her halfway and assumes (NEVER assume... spell the word and find out why!) that his attempts to act like a genuine gentleman will be eventually rewarded. NOT SO! American Women have a different agenda and will use a man without so much as blinking an eye. All this occurs while the man thinks he is building a rapport between them. I have NEVER ONCE known a woman (through MY experiences or those of others I've talked to) who has had the class to tell a guy up front that she is not intetested in a manner that would set her apart (class) from other women. Instead, she will willingly mislead the guy into believing that there is the hint of a spark while she encourages him to waste time and money on a classless sow. All the time while she is with HIM wasting his resources and leading him on, she is scanning the field for someone that she REALLY wants to be with. It took me quite a while to clear away the fog and catch onto this, but better LATE than NEVER. In my travels overseas, I more often than not, have come across women who are textbook examples of class. They don't act like leeches in search of a guy to bleed dry. American women are an overhyped, overvalued, underperforming, tired product that are outclassed every day of the year by women from other shores. The cunts from Heartlessbitches.com will flay me alive for what I have said, but why should I listen to those who only PRETEND to listen to both sides of the story? 'Nuf said!