General Info

[Optimist]

To echo HH. If one objects to a society where every move is traced, one is told "You don't need to worry if you abide by the law". If every movement is traced or all the power is in the hands of the state and anything, even if legal, can appear to be suspicious and evidence of being the wrong kind of person: merely being in certain areas at certain times can be evidence of intent to do wrong.

Why do the Police in any follow up of accusations seize mobile phones as their first option. There may be no evidence so they search location, financial transactions, and web history in the hope of finding something, however unrelated to the accusations, which can be made to stick. Who of us can be sure we haven't broken some law, however arcane it may be.

One's wife will be really happy to know that on one evening one made half a dozen 50 euro purchases.

[Horny Harry]

Sabaah an-nuur, McAdonis. A cashless society means greater governmental control, which means a big decline in prostitution. For this reason, I am at a loss to understand why anyone on this board would support the attack on cash, unless they can back it up with a really solid blockchain argument.

I completely agree. Anyone on this forum who even remotely thinks that a cashless economy is a good thing is like a turkey voting for Thanksgiving.

Could it be that Germany's success with FKKs owes a lot to its slowness in moving over to the cashless society? In Sweden you've got the opposite situation, so anyone who loves cashless should go and monger there.

Na, it's just that Sweden is an incredibly politically correct country where, and I'm truly sorry to start about this again (😉 ), the left has been in power for decades. Monger in Sweden? Where? Or were you being sarcastic?

Radical left wing feminists with a severe frustration and hatred against men have moved up the chain of power in areas like in journalism and politics, and have been able to push the public opinion that every man that visits a prostitute is a rapi!$t. So as a result and in order to 'protect' women, Sweden has outlawed prostitution many years ago. You can thank the left for that one, similarly like the left is restricting prostitution in The Netherlands as I previously reported.

It's a myth that 'the left' is in favour of prostitution, it has existed for many centuries in Europe, long before the whole concept of "left" and "right" was conceived, and prostitution has mostly been tolerated in Europe even during times when the society as a whole was a lot more conservative.

What's not a myth however is that 'the left' believes in social engineering, controlling and collectivising a society in every detail, like financial transactions and taxation, and that many ideas of 'the left' are usually 180 degrees opposite to libertarians who believe in personal responsibility, low taxes, low government meddling and a lot of privacy.

Is anyone therefore surprised that Sweden is already mostly cashless and has outlawed prostitution? &

I am not in favor of going to cashless society. But it could be imposed on us.

That's why it's very important to raise people's awareness about this. It's also more than just prostitution, it's also being able to buy some cigarettes, fuel for your car etc, because when all payments must be done digitally it's also a child's play to track somebody's location.

Everybody (incl. someone's wife) can easily find out that you fuelled your car at 15:45:51 on the 1st of October at fuel station XYZ in Frankfurt, and then bought a pack of cigarettes, mouthwash and chewing gum in Darmstadt at 16:31:25 at a DM located at ABC street, and then bought E300 Euro worth of gift cards at 17:02:56 at a REWE at DEF street in Darmstadt.

Can you already imagine the questions when a suspicious and-or controlling spouse is looking through the bank statements: "what were you doing in Darmstadt honey, I thought you were in Cologne for business? And why did you buy me all those gift cards? " Oops!

[McAdonis]

Sabaah an-nuur, McAdonis. A cashless society means greater governmental control, which means a big decline in prostitution. For this reason, I am at a loss to understand why anyone on this board would support the attack on cash, unless they can back it up with a really solid blockchain argument.

I am not in favor of going to cashless society. But it could be imposed on us. If certain societies are already accepting cashless, then it's possible it can be implemented elsewhere. As mongers, we have to accept that we are in the minority. We may not have a say in this matter. Some believe that cashless would allow governments to collect more tax-money and simultaneously reduce spending. The writing may already be on the wall.

[Polyamorist]

Korea and Nordic countries already conduct 80% of their transactions cashless. Most developed countries (except Germany) are at 60%.

Sabaah an-nuur, McAdonis. A cashless society means greater governmental control, which means a big decline in prostitution. For this reason, I am at a loss to understand why anyone on this board would support the attack on cash, unless they can back it up with a really solid blockchain argument.

Could it be that Germany's success with FKKs owes a lot to its slowness in moving over to the cashless society? In Sweden you've got the opposite situation, so anyone who loves cashless should go and monger there.

[McAdonis]

Many people can, correctly IMHO, see the totalitarian writing on the wall (see my comment below) about a cashless society, so I think the people will have to be 'shocked' into a digital slaughtering pen. As the saying goes: "never let a crisis go to waste. ".

Korea and Nordic countries already conduct 80% of their transactions cashless. Most developed countries (except Germany) are at 60%. Last year, India took the largest rupee notes out of circulation. Overnight 85% of the currency became void and people had to exchange their large notes for smaller notes. Will it take a crisis to get these societies to abolish cash completely? Maybe.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/c.../1/812384.html

Gift cards are usually not refundable for cash (digital of physical cash), and even if someone would be able to 'launder' stacks of gift cards back into digital cash, sooner or later the taxman would start to wonder about why someone always deposits E5 k worth of gift cards on her checking account. Remember, when everything is digital, the taxman is also digitally informed about all deposit, and 'cash' deposits of thousands of Euros in the form of gift cards will be highly suspicious. Everything will be interlinked.

Some proponents of cash argue that going cashless will only deter criminals and terrorists in the short-term, meaning they will adapt their methods. Instead of robbing banks, they will just hack into them.

"And given how international terrorist networks have become, they use the banking system in a large part of their operations, not cash, which is too risky, visible and slow to transport over long distances. So depriving these networks of cash will have little or no effect on peace and law enforcement. If it did, they would simply resort to online currencies, such as bitcoins, over which governments have no control. ".

http://www.dailycsr.com/cashless-eco...fraud-freedom/

In a digital- or cashless society there is no more privacy anymore, that's what makes it so bloody dangerous.

You're not going to be able to siphon off E50 cash here and E50 cash there in order to have a nice handful of cash to pay for your hobby anymore. 😮

Even if cash is never abolished completely, there is definitely a push to be "mostly cashless", which means anyone who prefers paper money in the future, will automatically arouse suspicion. It will be assumed that they are either purchasing drugs or prostitutes. For sure, going cashless or "mostly cashless" will make being anonymous harder, but hopefully not impossible. Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer system and based on cryptography, so big government will have difficulty shutting it down. The only way a Bitcoiner can be detected is if the government goes to the online merchant and requests the payer's shipping address and email.

[Horny Harry]

If they were to move to a cashless society, it would probably be gradual. They would phase out the 500 EUR note first. Then the 100 EUR note. Then the 50 EUR note.

You think so? I'm not so sure if they have enough time left for that.

My guess is that when the next serious crisis comes (1998 LTCM, 2008 Lehman's) the central banks won't be big enough to bail out 'the system' anymore. In 1998 LTCM was bailed out by the banks, in 2008 the banks were bailed out by the central banks. When the next crisis hit, who is going to bail out the central banks? Perhaps the IMF with digital SDR's based on some sort of blockchain? I think what will happen then is a Big Freeze (similar to Cyprus) where all banks are closed, while the authorities are working feverish behind the scenes to wipe the slate clean and will have to start something completely new like going cashless, perhaps even in combination with things like a basic income etc.

Many people can, correctly IMHO, see the totalitarian writing on the wall (see my comment below) in a cashless society, so I think the people will have to be 'shocked' or 'scared' into the digital slaughterhouse. As the saying goes: "never let a crisis go to waste."

I could imagine mongers going to REWE and using their credit card to purchase a stack of 50 EUR Amazon gift cards. Then proceed to FKK and use that to pay the WGs.

Well, I agree with you that women love to shop, but I seriously doubt that a girl can spend all her income in Amazon. 😂 Think about it, are they in turn also going to pay their rent or mortgage payments with AMZN gift cards? Or car payments? Or the grocery bills? Or insurance?

Gift cards are usually not refundable for cash (neither digital nor physical cash), and even if someone would be able to 'launder' stacks of gift cards back into digital cash, sooner or later the taxman would start to wonder about why someone always deposits E5 k worth of gift cards on her checking account. Remember, when everything is digital or cashless, the taxman is also digitally informed about all deposit, and 'cash' deposits of thousands of Euros in the form of gift cards will be highly suspicious. Everything will be interlinked.

In a digital- or cashless society there is no more privacy anymore, that's what makes it so bloody dangerous.

p.s. how will you explain to your wife or partner when she sees that you buy hundreds of Euros worth of gift cards every month (especially close to an overseas trip) and yet she never gets a fucking gift card from you? 😂 Again, just remember that everything is digital, so all she has to do is look at the checking account to see where the money goes. Your wife will have roughly the same powers as the taxman: every transaction will have to be accounted for. There is no more cash, not even cash to buy a pack of chewing gum.

You're not going to be able to siphon off E50 cash here and E50 cash there in order to have a nice handful of cash to pay for your hobby anymore.

[Pistons]

Pimps are transferring that money up the organized crime chain. And that money gets re-invested into their drugs and weapons trafiking businesses. People involved in illicit activity prefer the anonymity of cash because they they don't want to be tracked. The 500 EUR note just makes transferring and storing cash that much more efficient and easier for them. As the article explains, the the 500 EUR note is nicknamed the "Bin Laden" due its popularity with terrorists and criminals.

Except its not money. Its currency.

[McAdonis]

Good point and link. As all transfers from the girls onwards to the pimps would get tracked, the naysayers would loose their main argument against this.

Pimps are transferring that money up the organized crime chain. And that money gets re-invested into their drugs and weapons trafiking businesses. People involved in illicit activity prefer the anonymity of cash because they they don't want to be tracked. The 500 EUR note just makes transferring and storing cash that much more efficient and easier for them. As the article explains, the the 500 EUR note is nicknamed the "Bin Laden" due its popularity with terrorists and criminals.

[McAdonis]

This would certainly hurt prostitution and all other cash businesses which are cash not just due to convenience but due to privacy.

I could imagine mongers going to REWE and using their credit card to purchase a stack of 50 EUR Amazon gift cards. Then proceed to FKK and use that to pay the WGs.

The ECB has had zero or even negative interest for a while now. While this doesn't necessarily result in negative interest for end customers, it could, and has in rare cases. As long as there is cash, people will withdraw their savings if the interest is negative.

Like you said, the negative interest rate has not impacted normal consumers yet. But even if it did, the country with the lowest rates is Switzerland, and they are at negative 0. 75 percent. So keeping 10000 CHF parked in the bank for a year would only cost 75 CHF. Negative interest rates won't be permanent, only until deflation corrects itself.

If they were to move to a cashless society, it would probably be gradual. They would phase out the 500 EUR note first. Then the 100 EUR note. Then the 50 EUR note.

[TorrentChief]

Exactly. Name me one country where tip earners pay tax on their cash tips. And that tipping culture has been the major source of income for hundreds of millions of people for decades.

In the USA, where there's a heavy tipping culture, there's an assumption in that tips in restaurants may be in cash and not on the credit card. Tips in restaurants can average 10-20% per meal price or more depending on the restaurant and server. Because cash obviously can't be tracked, the IRS requires that the server claims a minimum of 10% of their gross sales as taxable income for tax purposes. It's in indirect way of taxing cash tips. Servers highly prefer cash tips because then they only have to claim 10% of their gross receipts, credit card tips are claimed in the full amount of the tip. The worst night for a server in the USA Is a long night of higher than average credit card tips.

[Takedown]

Prostitution is a cash business, receipt-less and generally not centralized, meaning customers pay the WG directly, rather than the brothel operator. The government will collect more than they used to but I doubt the government will come close to collecting even 10% of the action. To get 40% of the action is unrealistic. That level of enforcement would be too expensive in terms of manpower. The

If German government really wanted to crack down on tax avoidance and underreported income, they would move to a cashless society like the Nordic countries. Moving to a cashless society would not only allow the German government to collect more tax money, but would probably result in cost savings. Fewer tax authorities, customs agents, police, military need to be hired.

http://www.ibtimes.com/cashless-global-economy-might-reduce-organized-crime-terrorism-lipow-251501

Exactly. Name me one country where tip earners pay tax on their cash tips. And that tipping culture has been the major source of income for hundreds of millions of people for decades.

[Pistons]

Any advantages would be way offset by the fact that without cash, many wouldn't pay for prostitution at all. As to blockchain currencies etc, they can be and have been hacked. Also, most people probably distrust them.

Your point of view is easy to see in today's paradigm. But then you have to look at factors which can usher in paradigm changes. A cashless society is one such thing that was change the take on prostitutes as it would make it hard or impossible for pimps or traffickers. Other factors that can usher in a paradigm change relates to polygamy, robot-sex (technology), basic income, religion, etc.

[SvenFKK]

Good point and link. And at the same time, the one currently winning argument against prostitution would fall flat on its head. As all transfers from the girls onwards to the pimps would get tracked, the naysayers would loose their main argument against this. However, smaller issues with this, especially privacy, would be fixed if there was a move over to blockchain currencies.

Any advantages would be way offset by the fact that without cash, many wouldn't pay for prostitution at all. As to blockchain currencies etc, they can be and have been hacked. Also, most people probably distrust them.

[SvenFKK]

If German government really wanted to crack down on tax avoidance and underreported income, they would move to a cashless society like the Nordic countries. Moving to a cashless society would not only allow the German government to collect more tax money, but would probably result in cost savings. Fewer tax authorities, customs agents, police, military need to be hired.

There are two problems with this: privacy and negative interest. Privacy is not a problem in the Nordic countries, where some things are required to be public there which would be illegal to make public elsewhere. This would certainly hurt prostitution and all other cash businesses which are cash not just due to convenience but due to privacy.

The ECB has had zero or even negative interest for a while now. While this doesn't necessarily result in negative interest for end customers, it could, and has in rare cases. As long as there is cash, people will withdraw their savings if the interest is negative. While this sounds logical, it doesn't really make sense, since the cash will also lose value if there is inflation. Back when interest was 5 per cent, inflation was 6 per cent or 8 per cent or whatever, so in practice there was more "negative interest" in a checking account then than there is now. However, most people react more strongly to their balance decreasing even if they don't withdraw anything than to an increase in balance though much less than the rate of inflation, even though the latter is arguably worse.

Of course, conspiracy theorists see a cashless society as helping government control.

[SvenFKK]

- It will be as easy for the officials to check tax payments from the girls as it is for them to check for conom usage.

Condom usage requires watching people in action, which is rather difficult in practice. In the future, all prostitutes (including girls doing erotic massage who don't even offer sex, etc) will have to be registered. So, it is easier. As with all cash business, it is easy to hide earnings, but at least a minimum can be taxed.