General Info

[Peter]

I think this development that Novize is talking about can be attributed to the oversupply of clubs. When there were fewer clubs and just as manya total customers, each club had plenty of guests. They knew they had to protect their capital, which was their girls. If the girls started seriously complaining about a guest, or if a group of guests got out of line, he was asked to leave, and sometimes asked never to come back.

Nowadays with many more clubs and not more customers (possibly less), the clubs are not really in a position to turn down customers.

I had a long talk with the manager of my favourite club. He realizes the old days aren't coming back, but he also does not want to compete at all costs. He is not interested in 19,90€ sessions and all the other things that might happen. I have seen him ask a customer or two politely to pay their bill in full, and not what they thought it was worth (people who went to the room for 58 minutes, came twice and basically brutalized the girl who then want to pay 50€). When the guy refused, he said, "no problem". Gave the girl the money out of his pocket, and told the customer to enjoy the rest of his stay, but that he would no longer be welcome there.

It is a shame that is not happening more. But with more clubs the ability to keep the club atmosphere free of annoying people will be tougher and tougher.

The only club I know of where there have never been problems is Schieferhof.

[Henio]

Hi Novize,

You are right, but until last Saturday at the Ibiza party, I had not seen this at World in such an explicit way (seen it at Oase quite a few times). It got to the point it was so damn obnoxius that I just left, not much else I could do.

Sunday was great though, and now I understand your preference for Sundays at World.

Chivaz

[Novize]

The atmosphere in FKK-clubs is going downhill already - at least in the three big clubs in the Rhein-Main-area.

It´s not the "tourists" responsibility, it´s the behaviour of a growing number of clients who live in Germany and feel superior to the women.

I don´t see any chance that this development might be stopped.

Enjoy the time left,

Novize

[Optimist]

I just want to support the perceptive and wise posts from Ortos, Chivaz, and Akibono. Excellently stated. We must be careful not to degrade the FKK environnment we are visiting. The key I think is to treat the workers with respect and as real people. This approach wil limit the tendency of girls to drift towards the RLD attitude. We also need to make it clear that we understand the ethos of return visits to the same club etc. -that we are part of the culture not just ignorant interlopers

[CBGBConnisur]

Fred, you should seriously look at South America, especially Brazil and Argentina, the level of women over there is worlds above Europe. Latin Blondes are pretty amazing when you get a look at them. Over 30 is not a big deal over there. Obviously the Greek Islands and Spain tend to be for young people in their early 20's. Tourists are a common site at Frankfurt area brothels due to its international reputation as a European center of commerce but in the most of the Ruhr clubs, the vast majority of customers are locals. Very few girls in those parts have met a foreigner.

[Wanking]

Peter I am not saying that it will happen in Germany, but I believe there is a market for resort style brothels in Europe. Also Im sure this idea could be realized somwhere like the Czech Republic or the Spanish islands for well less than $1000 a day.

Infact when you think about it : There are almost no suitable holiday destinations for alone single men over the age of 30 in Europe. Even take sex out of it and it doesnt get better. If a single man over 30 goes to the Greek Islands or the Spanish coast for a weeks holiday alone, he stands out like a sore prick because hes older than most people and everybody else is in groups.

If there was such a resort in Europe I would go for sure, and I am in no doubt that there would be also huge numbers of visitors from the US. There are millions of singles guys over 30 out there, who would like the idea of spending a few days relaxing in an environment where they could have easy sex, relax and not feel out of place.

Chivaz Ive heard of blackbeards but Im not that gone on black women to be honest, and I am not really bothered with Thailand either, cos Im not that gone on Thai women.

European Blonde women are my thing...

[Akibono]

Tourists already present a large percentage of the patrons of FKK clubs. I would estimate about 35% total. Probably close to 80% during Messe and 10% at other times. The advantage of tourists is the fact they bring big bucks. Locals tend to be more cheap and sometimes abuse the girls. What matters to the girls is 1) how much money they can make; and 2) how easy they can make it off the customers. In most places like Amsterdam, there is not a way to screen out the true players from the lookers. Thus, the girls get alot of harrassment and assholes. Their defensive mechanism is to screw everyone--especially the tourists since they are easy prey. Look what happened to World when they had a free opening. Lots of lookers and people who expect sex for free. The reason the FKKs work is that bad providers get weeded out and good ones are rewarded. The FKK presents an ideal situation for them to work. Anything that increases the profits for the girls is good because it attracts better providers. But this must go along with the incentive of better pay for better service and no pay for poor service. Perhaps an open rating system for the girls along with the time they have worked!

[Peter]

in the Düsseldorf area it is not just a german game. At leat half the people at PHG and Goldentime come over the boarder from Holland or Belgium. But that and the Japanese who work in Düsseldorf and the Brits in the military are the only real foreigners.

Catering to repeat business from locals is what does the most to ensure good service.

I like your spelling mistake of praying as preying!

[Henio]

You're right Peter, the girl selection there does not show much variety (and some of them have probably seen better days), but at least we can see that someone is trying to make this kind of business. But it is in D.R where labour is dirt cheap to run a resort like this. Wander if this would float in Germany?

They do not have free sex for showing your butt on the net though, but maybe it is a business opportunity the have missed :-)

Chivaz

[Ortos]

I agree 100% with Chivaz and his sentiments. Fred, you have definitely missed the point here. Chivaz echos my opinion exactly: FKK is a good thing. If it works, don't fix it. Do not raise the profile of these fkks by broadcasting it in bright neon lights across the globe. Do not take a nice fish from a small pond and move it into the sea: it will die or severly change itself in order to survive in the new environment. Let those of us who have either done the homework or have the luck to otherwise find out about it enjoy it. And also have respect for the the cultural context in which we find the Germany fkks. They are part of the German culture, so if anyone wants to make them some kind of an international Vegas-like attraction, then let them call horny "geil" (i.e. be Germans).

When those of us non-Germans or non-residents of Germany venture into these FKKs we are very tourists; special interest tourists, mind you: sex tourists! We should approach the whole experience just as if we were backpackers travelling to, say, Crete and hiking down a gorge where we might meet local shepards with their goats. Or we might wander into a Greek village and enter a small church and start admiring frescoes on the wall. We notice in the back of the church some locals preying. How do we behave? We are respectfull. We and the locals share the experience of the church or the gorge, perhaps in different ways, from different perspectives.

That's how we non-Germans should, in my opinion, behave when we enter the German FKKs. We "tourists" are part of the mix; even local German men will agree we serve a purpose. Thus we are tolerated, even welcomed sometimes. But it is a German game and so we non-locals should all attempt to join in the fun but be as non-intrusive as possible. Dreaming of Sex Resorts with all these facilities might be nice for a laugh, but they are completely unrealistic.

FKK tourism needs low-impact, high appreciation. Let it grow on its own merits, it doesn't need any help from us...

[Peter]

But to do it right you need an internationakl array of girls.

I just saw a TV report on Big Sister. That is one place you will definitely never find me!

[Henio]

Hi Fred,

here is something that might come close to your dream place: http://www.blackbeardsadultresort.com/index.html

Never been there, but I think there are some reports on it on the Dominican Rep. section.

Chivaz

[Peter]

Fred,

Your Idea makes no financial sense.

The legality of clubs, and the way they still work well is based on them making money only from the entrance fees of the men and women and not getting involved in the transactions between them in the clubs. That means all they earn is the entrance fee.

Look at the guys on this and other boards, they are cheap. We all are. Are you going to pay 150 dollars a day for entrance plus a room? That would be on the low side to run the sort of hotel you are thinking of. will the customers pay extra for the movies and food and the like, or will they cheap out and expect it to all be provided by the club.

If you want to do that then you have to do it super exclusive on a secluded tropical island and get the $1,000+ a day set, and do a full on luixury all inclusive resort with 25 of the absolute top ladies you can find.

[Henio]

Hi Fred,

First of all I do not speak or write German very well. Yes, I am a tourist myself, although regularly in Germany for various of reasons.

Don't get me wrong here. My point is this: I support the exchange of information as much as possible for the serious punter as well as the occasional pleasure seeker. The problem however is when places such as Amsterdam etc. become tourist traps. I could lay out the economics of tourist traps as it is a well reasearched and documented field of study (would actually be fun to apply to P2P). It will result in overpriced items with bad service in most cases.

For those who go through the small trouble of studying where the good stuff is, great. Let the rest wander drunk in Amsterdam RLD or Prague Sex park. No need to drag them in while business is doing ok. It may start to happen if there will be too many clubs.

Don't want to sound to selfish, but then again, maybe I am ;-)

Chivaz

[Wanking]

Chivaz,

Why do you bother posting on this international forum then?, why not just post on a German forum in the German language and then you would certainly minimize the numbers of potential foreign visitors.

F