FKK World - Giessen

[Toscana]

There was little evidence of any warning signs yesterday.

A great line up, later in the evening a surge of visitors. Good mood. I had a great time as usual.

One of the girls I spoke to was not even aware there had been a raid; Monday is her day off.

There was a marked Angel presence though, outside and inside. Ostentatiously so, I thought. Why that? Don't know.

[Hessen Bub]

The 81ers are a criminal organization, there's no doubt about that.

What the authorities try to prove is that the girls are not self-employed. If they were, then the club could not provide strict boundaries to what is allowed and what is not. The clubs could state that the girls have agreed on a common service level and pricing. But making them stay until 4am when they arrive after 12am may be something that indicates that the girls are not self-employed and that there is ostensible self-employment (Scheinselbständigkeit). If that were the case, the girls were employed by the club. Which would make the club liable to pay tax and the employee's contribution to social security, unemployment etc.

That's what the razzias are about. And that complies with the law.

The authorities may have been less strict with the HA as they know that their successor may be even worse.

HB

[Plover 23]

I am fully OK with these razzias. It's a tax issue, and as other clubs are paying their taxes, World owners also should. Here's a newspaper article on the subject:

http://www.giessener-allgemeine.de/H...pageid,43.html

HB

Hi HB,

I thought you might pick up the references.

I agree with you. Thank you for the article, which sheds some light, but raises some interesting questions.

My comments were predicated upon Marlow's suggestion that these were targetted actions to wipe out World. I agree with you that the shareholders should pay tax on their proceeds, but I feel that the grounds for the HAMC's "Fight for Your Right" campaign have some legitimacy.

I know it is a bit rich for HAMC to play the "wounded innocent" card, but I do think the legislation is unfair. There are many organised crime groups in this business and otherwise in Germany, but the Camorra, the far-right groups, and the Turkish and East-European mafia are treated correctly, as criminals, not as terrorists who threaten the fabric of the state.

Climbing off my Harley hobby-horse for a moment, the article seems to raise some interesting issues. Do I understand it to say that the business itself has accounted correctly for entrance fees and beverage sales, but that the issue is the income tax of the directors, and income tax and VAT due on the services of the girls?

This issue of the girls must apply to all clubs, and is surely the responsibility of the girls not the club. Clearly there is, indeed, evasion, but I rue the day that we all have to receive an itemised personal VAT invoice from a girl each time we fuck her ass!

Have Fun, even at €50 + VAT per session,

PL

[Markthomas1950]

Senior members will remind him to leave names out of the report.

I don't get it. I am getting mixed messages here. I recall you saying that reports are no use if there are no names in them.

Now you advocating reports have no names?

I think Ortos may have a few words to say about that.

[Hessen Bub]

Freedom dies by inches

Fight for your right...

I am fully OK with these razzias. It's a tax issue, and as other clubs are paying their taxes, World owners also should. Here's a newspaper article on the subject:

http://www.giessener-allgemeine.de/H...pageid,43.html

HB

[Vito Corleone]

Or imagine "headcase" sidling up to the female cops and interrogating them, "what's your name, where are you from, how old are you", etc and taking notes. Then she smacks him in the head with her billy club.

beffen- who sometimes lets his imagination run wild, but not so far fetched I think

Senior members will remind him to leave names out of the report.

[Beffen1]

Mike De H, think we need to see the video of this raid...

Imagine this happening at a club a bit closer to Frankfurt...a guy having a red eye flight out decides to visit a club and then can't leave the club to make his flight.

Or imagine "headcase" sidling up to the female cops and interrogating them, "what's your name, where are you from, how old are you", etc and taking notes. Then she smacks him in the head with her billy club.

beffen- who sometimes lets his imagination run wild, but not so far fetched I think

[Fritz2]

Two raids in one year seems about normal.

Not quite, that's actually rather seldom, although one have to bear in mind that the 1st raid was by the police IIRC and the 2nd by the tax office (with assistance from the police).

BTW, an article in the local newspaper seems to confirm the open secret that the FKKW management is rather close to the Hells Angels.

[Fritz2]

Are you saying that the pimps have an insider in the German tax department?

I wouldn't be surprised, this has happened before. The most prominent case was probably the former Atlantis which received preemptive raid warnings from a mole in the responsible police department.

[Basketcase]

I don't think so, because they already had been there in February and everything remained calm.
I bet some of the officials (from the tax department) were really surprised to storm into such an empty large club on that monday night.

Seems this sort of prewarning system is better developed than those dealing with earthquakes and tsunamies.

Are you saying that the pimps have an insider in the German tax department? A bit like that movie The Departed.

As mentioned below 40 girls at World on a Monday appears about the right amount of hookers working from my times at World on a Monday. It is a real slow day and many girls stay away since it is a catastrophic day for business.

There may have been alternative objectives to raiding a club on a Monday. A weekend would have been a logistical hazard with guests and maybe 100 hookers on the premises. So just 100 state officials may not have been enough for a raid on a Saturday.

What the authorities may be really after is paperwork or proof that there was a lack of paperwork. There would have been less staff or protection on during a Monday to protest or get in the way. It makes it much easier to cart away car loads of files.

Good point about the front people operating the Gmbh (company) were also visited at home by the government officials. Seems like a very well coordinated raid with a number of intentions than just taxation of the hookers. I mean if it was just taxation of hookers then why visit the Directors of the company at their homes? Do the owners hold tax records of the hookers in the cabinet in the laundry room at their home?

[Plover 23]

two raids in a year is not normal, and on such a scale too. We do not know what was found, unless you have any inside info!
Also we should distinguish between types of raid. Agreed and I have noticed as I live here, the tax and cops authorities have raided Oase and Palace, but these were not raids in the true sense of the word.
They were more in the class of sudden unanounced check ups. Yes, the cops do that a lot.
This was different, a thorough search and gutting of the building together with raids on homes of the owners.
Now you are not telling me that is normal. I hope not anyway.
Remember World is run by the Hell's Angels who are let's face it a bunch of crooks and gangsters - that much is pretty well documented if you follow the German media.
With all your files and data carted off by the cops in several loads, you are pretty much reduced to a shoe string operation, no matter who you are.
I am much more inclined to the view that World will either change hands or close, either way you will notice a marked difference in service.
Be realistic.....the omens are not good.

Freedom dies by inches

Fight for your right...

[Breadman]

I bet some of the officials (from the tax department) were really surprised to storm into such an empty large club on that monday night.

My last visit to the club happened to be on a Monday...and ive got to say the lineup and the number of guests was pretty poor on both counts. 40 girls the entire monday sounds about right but 50 guys seems a bit high.

If anything, I think monday was chosen to keep paperwork to a minimum while making it look like they are doing their jobs. To insinuate that girls were warned and stayed away would be true if the search was on ANY day but a monday. If it was a thursday or friday and only 40 girls were working...fine, they got warned. I was there the entire day on monday the 8th...40 girls sounds just about right if you include the bartenders, the cook and the cleaning lady.

[Angus Magee]

Be realistic.....the omens are not good.

Let's face it, someone has to post this one.

http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/s/It...l+Fine+/1Qnq5Z


and I feel fine

AM

[Marlow]

two raids in a year is not normal, and on such a scale too. We do not know what was found, unless you have any inside info!
Also we should distinguish between types of raid. Agreed and I have noticed as I live here, the tax and cops authorities have raided Oase and Palace, but these were not raids in the true sense of the word.
They were more in the class of sudden unanounced check ups. Yes, the cops do that a lot.
This was different, a thorough search and gutting of the building together with raids on homes of the owners.
Now you are not telling me that is normal. I hope not anyway.
Remember World is run by the Hell's Angels who are let's face it a bunch of crooks and gangsters - that much is pretty well documented if you follow the German media.
With all your files and data carted off by the cops in several loads, you are pretty much reduced to a shoe string operation, no matter who you are.
I am much more inclined to the view that World will either change hands or close, either way you will notice a marked difference in service.
Be realistic.....the omens are not good.

[Dedalus]

The scale of the raid is not unusual. Tax, customs, health, immigration are all involved because these are the areas that prostitution touches upon.

As this is the second raid within a short period, I expect this to be the end of World as it was with Atlantis outside Frankfurt. It is extremely hard to run a club after two hits. the authorities are on your back, the good girls start to vanish, punters decline in direct proportion to the low quality, service suppliers such as laundry, food, cleaning, power and heating either withdraw or demand up front payments as they don't want to be left with massive debts on their accounts.

Hey Marlow,

Two raids in one year seems about normal. Doesn't really sound as though anything was that sinister was found, other than the lack of workers present ;-))

Don't think I'd hit the Alarmstufe Rot button just yet. I can recall some years ago when authorities were seriously targeting World and it looked quite different. Also if the authorities were going after anything apart from a normal tax control, I suspect they probably would have hit the place some months ago when the 81ers were negatively splayed all over the German news.

It does make me happy that I passed on a World trip on Monday in favor of a visit with my Steuerberater ;-))

Cheers,

Dedalus