Senior Membership Guidelines

[Lickin Lounger]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stoner

BTW...it is important to keep in mind that just because one has a regular membership does NOT mean they are new to the WSG. Often they've been here for years just lurking.

Stoner's made an excellent point. I can speak from personal experience. I've been reading the WSG from the days when Atta started it up, and it has really helped me pursue this hobby. I only started posting recently though, probably within the past year or two.

"Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?"

I was always a little confused about how Regular members became Senior members, to tell you the truth. However I think the real question is, as you know, how to keep those serial spammers and bozos from posting useless gibberish. It doesn't bother me that I'm only a Regular member, even after years of reading the forum ... though to some guys it might be irksome, I don't know.

"Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify? "

It might be nice if there was a little bit more flexibilty, but along the same lines ... for example, maybe 5 US reports and 3 International reports or something could qualify for an un-moderated membership.

I frequent other sites with similar forums, but always use the WSG as my home base ... primarily because the reports tend to be more accurate and substantial; there are NO ads or commercial postings; and because everything is so neatly organized and focused.

Thank you so much, Jackson, for doing the work that you do to keep this forum alive and well!

[Bysshe]

I'm not attached to "Regular Member" and "Senior Member" as titles -- they work fine, but I wouldn't cry at a change. I do think there is immense value in holding posts for moderation; the absence of spam is what keeps this resource valuable.

I'd only point out one possible addition (or clarification) in the criteria to move from RM to SM -- the requirement that posted reports counting towards the total NOT be derivative of earlier reports, but new information.

I agree that moderators will likely become a necessity down the road, if not already.

Bysshe

[Stoner]

Sup Jackson,

I've been meaning to respond to whats going on.

As a member for a while, and someone who is an enthusiast in the hobby, WSG has been invaluable. What i find just as valuable is the comradery. Its like a free psyciatrist at times. Yes, it takes away a bit from the reports, but it endears people to WSG and invites people to contribute.

If it ever went to pay status, I think I would cry. Why? Not that i couldn't afford it (not that I want to afford it) but it takes away from the fact that the content is by fellow mongers from all over. There is a community, and sometimes knowing that others are pulling for you or wishing you to be safe is encouraging.

So please, do not consider that. Who ever gestured this in order to up the quality of posting is a fool. Shared knowledge is meaningless if it is not accessible.


You're questions:

"What does Senior Member status mean to you? "
To me, beyond the basic fact that posts get placed immediately, it offers a level of comfort. You can "trust" the report more than others per se for numerous reasons.

As a member who has been around for a while, I often remember a name very easily and recognize that they are who they say they are. But for a new member, it helps to have something to use as a measure. We are guys...we love to measure and compare things. ;)

BTW...it is important to keep in mind that just because one has a regular membership does NOT mean they are new to the WSG. Often they've been here for years just lurking. I recently ran into a WSGer at a local brothel. What a surprise, eh? He never posts, unfortunately, but has successfully planned trips through out Central and South America and had excellent times hobbying. This is due to the guide alone, which he found useful beyond all other sources.

I'm not saying this is the norm...but it should be considered so that actions are tempered appropriately.

"Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?"
I would also prefer Moderated, Regular and Senior.

I think there is a value in screening to an extent.

But...Having you burden yourself with this is nonsense, imo. I salute you for your vigilance against spam. Many IT departments could learn a lesson or two from you.

I can imagine the frustration of regular members posts not hitting the boards until days later. There has to be a happy medium.

Moving to a shared burden with volunteer moderators might be of value. I would NOT stop people from requesting info backchanneled to them. They will post in time. Sooner than later, they will realize that backchannelled info is not much better than that posted.

Often, if it needs to be backchannelled...it truly does need to go backchannel instead of in open threads.


"Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify? "

Whatever promotes up-to-date info is good, imo.


"Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?"

I, too, like the review, if you can keep up with it!


I do STRONGLY suggest you move to at least a shared Moderator system with a moderator FORUM to ask questions and confer knowledge on operations between moderators alone.

Still maintain a level of review, but perhaps the review process can become one that is shared among volunteer moderators. Distributed to an extent. Moderators with free time could go in, review regular member posts virtually around the clock on their free time and help you out.

[Ragman]

Jackson,

The scope and volume of your Forum now dictates that you will need to delegate some authority and establish a moderator process to continue your vision of how a good, FREE site can excell in the increasingly commercial internet environment.

Unless you are willing to abandon all hope of a normal life and dedicate all waking hours (and even that may not be enough) to the micro-management of WSG Forum, the question is no longer "Do we need moderators ?" but "How shall they be picked ?". My suggestions are:

1) Each Main Index geographical area have a moderator for that area. These are picked by you after your customary due deliberation. For LE and PC reasons you should handle the United States.

2) Each sub-category may or may not have have its own sub-moderator. Using Mexico as an example, the main moderator may have an expert knowledge of the Tijuana scene, a general familiarity of the Northwest Border towns, but never has seen the Northern towns south of Texas or the tourist traps like Cancun. Sub-moderators would allow him to concentrate on his area while providing timely responses in other areas.

3) Each Main Index moderator serves at your pleasure to futher your vision for this Forum. Period.

4) Each sub-category moderator is elected to a one (1) year term by the registered members of the Forum. This check-and-balance is meant to keep anyone from establishing his own little fiefdom in one corner of the board.

Ragman


Ps. To Jackson, a big THANK YOU for this most excellent resource.

[Big Johnson]

1. What does Senior Member status mean to you? My posts get posted right away. It normally means that I can respond to requests faster.

2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations? I think there is some advantages to that title in that you might be able to better trust a Senior Member as a non-casual user. For me, I post info more than I request info. But, if I am headed to a new location, I look at past postings for some guidance.

3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive?, What would you modify? I think the criterea is fine.

4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? I think asking for a second is more function of built relationships rather than true value of your reporting skills. If you monger alone or don't develop relationships through offline emails, I think some qualified canidates might get lost. I guess it depends if someone is actually monitoring the request board for people they want to second for nomination.

5. What would you modify? I like your site. The fact that it is free is good but it limits direct evaluation of providers like CH but you also get more occational mongers vs hobbists showing up on the board and they sometimes get new imput. I guess if there were more picture posting occuring that would probably need even a 3rd tier of paying clients, that have the rights to see pictures (or as at least one site has done videos.)


6. How do other forums handle this situation? I don't really participate in many other forums. So, I can't give you any info here.

[Progman]

Q: What does "Senior Member" status mean to you?
The word "Senior Member" means nothing to me but the fact that I can post my messages immediately is what is important.

Q: Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
Why don't you call these two types of memberships "Provisional Member" and "Permanent Member" or something along those lines.

Q: Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
I think the guidelines you set are more than fair. The only thing I would suggest is to require members to post at least 3 quality reports per year, not one.

Q: Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
Reviewing is a good idea but it sounds like you have just created a whole lot more work for yourself. You might want to consider giving moderator status to a few selected members.

Q: How do other forums handle this situation?
Most other boards I'm on do the moderation (deletions) of inappropriate posts after the post was made.

In conclusion I think you're on the right track. I hope you can soon elevate several members that I know, who are Regular Members, to Senior Members in the near future. I won't mention their handles here because it would not be appropriate. Jackson, I hope you don't have a day job that pays the bills. I don't know where you find the energy to keep up with this board. Thanks for making it available to us!

...(prog)

[JG1]

keeping it right to the point...

1. what does senior status mean? timely posts/responses

2. ...need senior/regular status...? yes, for all the reasons you listed

3. ...criteria reasonable..., ...modify...? this is my only concern. by having a specific number of posts as one criteria i'm afraid we will see the generation of false reports by someone just to be eligible for upgrade. it's almost impossible to verify every report, even by other members who reside in the same city. also, members who reside in smaller towns will have a harder time qualifying even though their posts can be very important to all of us! how would i suggest you modify the criterion? don't specify a certain number of posts. although a regular member's activity is very important, qualification for upgrade should be judged also on the quality of the posts. i know this is getting closer to the subjective criteria you are trying to avoid, but given the other guidelines (the peer review process) for promotion from regular to senior, it should not be a burden.

4. ...review reasonable...? yes, but let regular members also suggest promotion to senior status - peer promotion.

5. how other forums manage this? moderators. i like joe_zop's comments on this - a monitor with the right mix is essential. a "gung-ho" or egotistical moderator can ruin a forum.

thanks for a good forum - and thanks for giving us input into it's continuing development.

[Whome]

To me, Senior membership means my posts get posted right away. More importantly it means posts I'm reading from Senior members are available to read right away. I was a member before it was begun and when I noticed the designation I assumed it was related to the increasing number of bogus postings..or suspicious at least.

Do we need the designations? I think it's a good idea, as the forum is currently very good information and it sounds like Jackson has been doing a herculean job of screening the crap out.

I was not aware that the "regulars" posts which are delayed then appear in the correct "posted time" chronological order. That might explain me sometimes thinking "where did that come from...I don't remember reading that before".

The review process?
it could be a bottleneck based on the anticipated volume. Did I read that posts in the regular forums would have links back to the upgrade requests? If not....I can't see a lot of Senior members running to the "upgrade request" forum to approve the requests. If the requests were linked to the forums they post to....it would be not as bac. just my 2 cents.
and ....Jackson does a heck of a job with this site. My Hat is off to him.

[Joe Zop]

1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?

Just that my posts appear as soon as they are made. That means an ease of flow and discussion. To me, it doesn't mean all that much in terms of accuracy per se, as it's pretty impossible to police content and I tend to trust the community as a whole to highlight inaccuracies, which people seem pretty good at doing. Still, I'm generally going to trust something posted by a Senior Member with a decent number of posts more than I am something from a newbie with only a post or two.


2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?

I understand the need to screen things to reduce serial spammers, especially on an open registration system such as this this that uses unthreaded forum software. The Regular/Senior split seems as good a way as any to handle it, and it's not dissimilar to how others do things.

The one thing that does annoy about the Regular Member posts is that I at times miss them entirely until someone replies to them, as in certain areas there can be a number of posts and the discussion may have moved on by the time the Regular Member post makes it into the mix.


3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?

The bar seems higher on USA contributions, which I guess is understandable given that's where lots of contributors live. But it basically means that one trip to Pattaya or Amsterdam, where prostitution is less legally problematic, means more than a long time in a quasi-normal US area (presuming there is such a thing!) I guess I worry somewhat that this might manifest itself in more explicit "outings" of US providers as part of efforts to be approved, and thereby negatively impact on those providers.

I'm a bit unclear on how the contributions should be judged. For example, does this mean ten (or five) useful contributions on separate establishments, or just X number of useful contributions in general? The latter seems like a lower bar, but also one that's more realistic for people who live outside of major metropolitan areas where there may be a more limited variety of action or for those who travel internationally on a more limited basis. On the other hand, this policy may stimulate more lengthy and in-depth postings, which to my voluble tongue is a good thing. (BTW, I'm presuming you don't actually want "information that obviously belies the member's personal experience" since that would be asking for lies, and there are probably enough of them already. :D)

I'm also unclear how someone like RN, who has clearly made useful contributions to this forum, would fit into these criteria. Perhaps some kind of other category or criteria to take such members into account would be useful.

Finally, I'd just like to champion some degree of the positives in people asking questions, if they're the right kind. Obviously the "where the ?>@# are the wimmin' " kind of questions and seeing the same ones over and over are annoying, but cogent questioning of knowledgeable members can also result in substantial contributions to the forum by making clear what additional facts are needed or useful. People who act as positive catalysts for information should also have a place in the Senior scheme of things -- this might relate to my comment on RN-type members.

I'd modify things in general by simply explicitly keeping with you the option of making a judgement call and upgrading someone to Senior status at any point you see fit. This would help streamline things by making it possible for members to just demonstrate their worth, be seen as such, and just avoid dealing with the whole review process in such cases. If you were to use moderators, I might extend that ability to them as well.

To my mind, the whole issue here is having a process someone can use to shine light upon themselves when they feel overlooked and deserving of Senior status as opposed to a referendum on whether you unjustly upgraded people to Seniors. Why not keep the good and working part of the process, or at least the option of doing so, which would streamline things and save lots of hassle?


4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?

By and large the review procedure seems ok, though there are several things I find unclear and a couple of things that raise flags. I think Senior Members would be willing to contribute toward helping out, though given that as I post this there are 18 requests already in the upgrade request area less than 24 hours after you've created it, I worry about the workability of this in terms of pure volume, at least at the beginning of things. I also find it unclear how this is all going to be sorted out in terms of discussion once there are fifty or sixty requests pending at once. (Again, a threaded discussion would make this easier, as one could directly comment/track individual requests.) Perhaps adding in a direct voting or polling process as seen in Yahoo groups and elsewhere might be simpler.

It's unclear what kind of time-frame you're envisioning for the process, as well as how things would actually shake out. If eight Senior members support an applicant and two say, "this guy's a bozo" then how will that end up? (If the process is to be transparent, it should be as much so as possible.) How often can someone appeal for senior status?

One of my concerns, as someone mentioned earlier, is that forums will probably end up seeing posts from various regular members lobbying senior members for support of their applications or saying "upgrade me please!" (Heck, there are some in this thread already.) People tend to post where they post, whether or not it's always the absolute right place. And since that's all about board membership/administration and not about the designated subject matter of this forum, I'd probably tend to find that more annoying than seeing the same questions over and over again.

I'm also concerned about what this all means in terms of workload for you -- if it's more formal/difficult to get Senior status, that means more posts for you to approve/reject. Personally, though you clearly do a brilliant job in this regard, I'd rather you had the extra time to spend on site improvements/getting laid yourself. Perhaps this is a situation where you could enlist some Senior Members as moderators who could review and approve clearly on-topic posts, which would not only reduce your workload but have the dual advantages of reinforcing a sense of "ownership" or board stewardship for said members, and also could mean faster approval of Regular Member posts, which would contribute to the overall flow of things.


5. How do other forums handle this situation?

Some use members as moderators of particular interest areas, and some of these also use those members to help determine membership status. On some boards those members also act to screen/approve posts. To do so requires identifying members with the right mix of qualities, but I'd imagine, now that this system has been running a registration system for a fair amount of time, that you'd probably be able to do that in a fair number of areas if you were so inclined. Even if you only managed to do this in a few areas, it would still serve to reduce your workload, I'd imagine. If you were able to identify/set up multiple moderators for an area that could streamline things considerably. Depending on what you want, on some systems moderators also can tend to act as either guides or catalysts for stimulating postings, though I've also seen systems where the presence of moderators is so overwhelming as to choke the life out of things. The right balance is essential, and that comes from clear identification both of the people involved and the parameters of their activities/powers. The bottom line on that issue, as well as the membership categories as a whole, is to try to improve the signal to noise ration as much as possible.

Again, thanks for all the work and good thought you've put into this process and the forum as a whole.

[Nat Zass]

Jackson; Good plan. In response to your questions, my two cents are as folows;

1) Senior membership means that I can respond to other members in real time, instead of two days. I can also edit my posts, which come in handy if I make a mistake.

2) I am naive, but I don't know what a serial spammer is. I don't therefore know if you need the senior member designation. However, your explanation is reasonable.

3+4) The criteria is fair and reasonable. The review procedure seems fine. Besides; your world, your rules.

5) Other forums charge for the info you give out for free. Other than that, the forums are targeted towards different members. There is no real comparison.

Good luck with the project.

Nat

[Dollar Bill]

Mr. Jackson,

I would like to RESPECTFULLY request being bumped up to the Senior Member Level. Even though I do not have 100's of posts to my name thus far, I will be traveling to Colombia next week (for a 18 day trip) and know that I will be able to post good hard data on the Colombian boards. (WSG-DATA COLLECTION is half of my reason (or MISSION) for going to Colombia - the other is because my company needs me to go and is paying the airfare and most of the hotel).

I WILL discontinue posting any of the "stories" about my conquests (because sometimes that gets old and really does not provide info that WSG posters (& readers) can use), but WILL contribute information that can be utilized. Such as new places and/or info on existing places that might have changed (pricing / selection / hours or operation etc).

I WILL continue to do as much research as possible for the boards and post the hard data when collected.

Also, being a senior member WILL make me feel PROUD! Like I am not sitting on the bench anymore just watching the game, but like I am a real player (albiet small) in this MONGERING game of ours!

Thank you very much for your consideration and I really HOPE you approve my request.

Your BIGGEST fan,

Dollar Bill$

ps - Rest assured that I am not now, nor ever will be a SPAMMER. No matter what level a SPAMMER is, they should never be permitted to post on a GREAT board such as The World Sex Guide.

[On The Road]

Well I try to answer your questions:

1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
Being a Senior Member is a way to prove to be able to provide helpful informations.

Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
Yes, in my humble opinion. It help readers in knowing who is surely reliable and who isn't.

Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
Criteria are mostly reasonable, I think.

Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
I do not agree on the sentence: "the Regular Member's upgrade request must be seconded by one or more current Senior members, who shall post a message in the same thread beginning with a sentence to the effect "I second [username]'s Senior Member upgrade.".
I think should be enough if a Regular member posts his upgrade request, match all the criteria, and no Senior member object about it in, let's say, a week. Just in case of one or more complains, the discussion should start.

How do other forums handle this situation?
Well, I don't know. I don't read an other mongering forums, sorry.
I just read the WSG since the old Atta site was on www.paranoia.com, almost ten years ago...

Well, and I am definitely against a pay site. We'll lose most of the very usefull information you should find here, and we'll lose most of the people that read regurarly the forum.

[Easyas123]

Easy's two cents.

I agree with Buster on nearly all his points. I am definately against a pay site as that seems to take the sense of "community" out of the process and that is one of the things I dig about the WSG.

Since I am on a slow board, (Richmond VA), mostly we do not get smacked with newbie requests/spammers often. Therefore I would suggest your, (Jackson), possibly utilizing a service you have suggested in the past. Private message service for senior members. Not only does this "up" the prestige for senior members, but you could also contact "proven" senior members and ask for their input privately as to whether or not a regular member should be elevated.

After all, who would know better than a respected member of a particular board wether or not a regular member should be elevater or not.

Private messaging would also allow members such as Moon Dog let other senior members know info that would be valuable to them, without fear that the ladies or the "undeserving", (whatever that means to the individual), would be able to read it.

This would also let the senior memers of particular boards keep the "flavor" of their board without fear of watering down. On some boards mongers speak of "dreams", on others the posters are more forward.

But in the final analysis, this is YOUR board. All the clever ideas in the world will not profit us mongers if they only end up annoying you.

Hey , Jackson take it....
Easy as 1-2-3

[Guru]

Oddly enough, the notice that accompanies posts by a "regular" member sets forth my entire concern with the dual membership approach. By its very nature, our "hobby" is somewhat fast moving. My very first post was prompted by the appearance of new, highly inconspicuous, LE vehicles in my area. I sought to help my fellow hobbyists avoid trouble. Unfortunately, there was a two day time lag between my report and the posting of the information. I understand the need to avoid spammers. However, given the choice between wading through spam and getting a fresh post from a "regular" member that there is a john sting taking place at a particular intersection, I'll take the spam.

Just my two cents.

[Buster Highman]

Jackson: I tried posting this in the appropriate forum, but it doesn't seem to being accepting posts.

1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?

To me, it's the ability to post and receive feedback in a timely manner. I can't exactly tell my work buddies about my activities, so this provides a way to "tell my secret" in a non-threatening environment. It's always nice to have fellow members respond with "nice report" or "man, you got ripped off." Having posts be delayed by 1-2 days makes having a discussion rather awkward.

Also, for those of us who are traveling, having posts appear quickly can be very important, particular if you are arranging a meet with fellow forum members. As in, "Hey, I'm gonna be at ____ tomorrow, join me for some mongering!"

2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?

Well, you have already articulated why you set it up in the first place. Based on your experience with serial spammers, some sort of filtering/screening of posts seems justified and, perhaps, necessary. Whether you identify them as "Regular Member/Senior Member" or "Newbie/Correspondent" or something else is really up to you. Personally, I'm not concerned about the nomenclature.

3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?

The criteria all seem reasonable. I do not think they are overly restrictive. If anything, they might be too lax, as I can imagine a spammer trying one of the easier routes to senior status, e.g., “One detailed international travel report…”, by copying something from another board and then demanding promotion status.

Of course, it all depends on the rationale for having differences in status. If you just want to weed out the spammers and their ilk, then you would just need a series of minor contributions to assume positive intent.

On the other hand, if you wanted to identify members who had made significant contributions to the forum, you could be more restrictive in your criteria. There are definitely variations between senior members. Someone like a Carlos Perez (from the Monterrey board) deserves special recognition as a particularly knowledgeable member and as someone who is willing to assist travelers to his area.

An alternative to accomplish both ends, you might wish to add another layer of “vanity” status to those who you think have made particular contributions. This appeases those who want more restrictive criteria, and enables valid members to gain unmoderated status more quickly. Thus you could have

1. trial member status (moderated)
2. full member status (unmoderated)
3. super member status (unmoderated and someone who would make a good moderator)

4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?

I think it has drawbacks. I think you’re going to be inundated with senior member status requests. Senior members are unlikely to actually read this forum populated by regular members begging for status and thus the country forums start getting filled with pleas by regular members asking for senior member nominations in the senior member board. I think this is the last thing we want to see.

Personally, I think your best bet is the moderator method. You can request volunteers, and from that pool, pick or have other senior members nominate. You can have a couple of moderators. A moderator would only have authority over his particular forum. To ensure some level of control, you could create another tier of users that are immune from moderator behavior (a senior senior member) or just have an outlet forum for “complaints against moderator abuse.”

I know Moondog suggested going to a pay version, but I hope you don’t do that. There are a LOT of lurkers out there. I was one myself. This also ensures a broad membership. As to why Moondog thinks he should NOT post a great report precisely because anyone can read it is beyond me. This does not seem reasonable to me. Great reports should be read by all.

5. How do other forums handle this situation?

Slashdot uses a karma system where a subset of other users are able to “moderate” posts up or down based on their content. +1 for humor, -1 for off-topic, +2 for insightful, -2 for flame-bait, etc. users build up karma, which is (was) a sort of status symbol in the community. (Over time, there has developed a sort of karma backlash, where members post just to gain karma points.) Another feature then is the ability for readers to set filters that screen out posts below a certain threshold. This ensures I only see the posts that score above a certain number, +2 for instance.

Yahoo movies has recently incorporated a “Was this review helpful?” link on each reader review post. Thus you can identify the reviews that were particularly useful for others, and thus might have some value for you. The default sort is “by helpfulness” so you see the most helpful reviews first. Of course, this means that the first reviews generally get tagged first and then continue to get read and tagged, staying out on top, even over other good reviews.

MrFixitOnline uses a system whereby moderators are identified for each specific forum, giving them the authority to edit/delete posts as they see fit. These are usually very senior members who have contributed in the past, or even new members who have demonstrated a particular passion about a specific topic. Moderator status is strictly policed by a set of senior advisors who have no actual moderator authority, but who keep on eye out for abusive behavior by all parties, and report to those in charge (i.e., MrFixit).


Even though the members are a small part of what makes this work, at the end of the day, this is your baby. You should do what you think is best.