Prostitution and Law Enforcement

[My Alias]

Moonlighting cop killed working as a bouncer at The Sting, a Detroit topless club. http://www.freep.com/news/locway/cop3e_20040903.htm

[GettingTang]

The "pickup" should never present a risk for being busted. Not ever, unless you a real idiot! If she does not get in, simply smile, wave and drive away. It's that simple!

The bigger concern, for me and most seasoned mongers is getting busted while parked and in the act. This is highly more likely to happen.

Finding a good place to park these days where you don't have to worry about LE is becoming more and more difficult.

TANG~!

[Butterfly44]

would the exchange of money between a man and a woman be a menace to society?

only the jealous get neither the sex, nor the money, hence the puritanism.

please find here a copy and paste of the excellent relevant editorial leader from the magazine the economist, u.k. issue, dd. september 02nd 2004, together with a picture of the cover.

(as the copy is much less than 10% of the issue, hopefully, i am not transgressing any copyright laws.) - (say and explain me how if i was. - thanks.)

if ever, for reference, here is the link:
http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3151258


prostitution

sex is their business

sep 2nd 2004
from the economist print edition

attitudes to commercial sex are hardening. but tougher laws are wrong in both principle and practice

two adults enter a room, agree a price, and have sex. has either committed a crime? common sense suggests not: sex is not illegal in itself, and the fact that money has changed hands does not turn a private act into a social menace. if both parties consent, it is hard to see how either is a victim. but prostitution has rarely been treated as just another transaction, or even as a run-of-the-mill crime: the oldest profession is also the oldest pretext for outraged moralising and unrealistic lawmaking devised by man.

in recent years, governments have tended to bother with prostitution only when it threatened public order. most countries (including britain and america) have well-worn laws against touting on street corners, against the more brazen type of brothel and against pimping. this has never been ideal, partly because sellers of sex feel the force of law more strongly than do buyers, and partly because anti-soliciting statutes create perverse incentives. on some occasions, magistrates who have fined streetwalkers have been asked to wait a few days so that the necessary money can be earned.

so there is perennial discussion of reforming prostitution laws. during the 1990s, the talk was all of liberalisation. now the wind is blowing the other way. in 1999, sweden criminalised the buying of sex. france then cracked down on soliciting and outlawed commercial sex with vulnerable women—a category that includes pregnant women. britain began to enforce new laws against kerb-crawling earlier this year, and is now considering more restrictive legislation (see article ). outside a few pragmatic enclaves, attitudes are hardening. whereas, ten years ago, the discussion was mostly about how to manage prostitution and make it less harmful, the aim now is to find ways to stamp it out.

the puritans have the whip hand not because they can prove that tough laws will make life better for women, but because they have convinced governments that prostitution is intolerable by its very nature. what has tipped the balance is the globalisation of the sex business.

how swedish policies influence britain
sep 2nd 2004
immigration and prostitution in britain
sep 2nd 2004
prostitution
jul 11th 2003
time to legalise prostitution
jan 4th 2001

human rights

the white slave trade

it is not surprising that many of the rich world's prostitutes are foreigners. immigrants have a particularly hard time finding jobs that pay well; local language skills are not prized in the sex trade; prostitutes often prefer to work outside their home town. but the free movement of labour is as controversial in the sex trade as in any other business. wherever they work, foreign prostitutes are accused of driving down prices, touting “extra” services and consorting with organised criminal pimps who are often foreigners, too. the fact that a very small proportion of women are trafficked—forced into prostitution against their will—has been used to discredit all foreigners in the trade, and by extension (since many sellers of sex are indeed foreign) all prostitutes.

abolitionists make three arguments. from the right comes the argument that the sex trade is plain wrong, and that, by condoning it, society demeans itself. liberals (such as this newspaper) who believe that what consenting adults do in private is their own business reject that line.

from the left comes the argument that all prostitutes are victims. its proponents cite studies that show high rates of sexual abuse and drug taking among employees. to which there are two answers. first, those studies are biased: they tend to be carried out by staff at drop-in centres and by the police, who tend to see the most troubled streetwalkers. taking their clients as representative of all prostitutes is like assessing the state of marriage by sampling shelters for battered women. second, the association between prostitution and drug addiction does not mean that one causes the other: drug addicts, like others, may go into prostitution just because it's a good way of making a decent living if you can't think too clearly.

a third, more plausible, argument focuses on the association between prostitution and all sorts of other nastinesses, such as drug addiction, organised crime, trafficking and **** sex. to encourage prostitution, goes the line, is to encourage those other undesirables; to crack down on prostitution is to discourage them.

brothels with brands

plausible, but wrong. criminalisation forces prostitution into the underworld. legalisation would bring it into the open, where abuses such as trafficking and under-age prostitution can be more easily tackled. brothels would develop reputations worth protecting. access to health care would improve—an urgent need, given that so many prostitutes come from diseased parts of the world. abuses such as child or forced prostitution should be treated as the crimes they are, and not discussed as though they were simply extreme forms of the sex trade, which is how opponents of prostitution and, recently, the governments of britain and america have described them.

puritans argue that where laws have been liberalised—in, for instance, the netherlands, germany and australia—the new regimes have not lived up to claims that they would wipe out pimping and sever the links between prostitution and organised crime. certainly, those links persist; but that's because, thanks to concessions to the opponents of liberalisation, the changes did not go far enough. prostitutes were made to register, which many understandably didn't want to do. not surprisingly, illicit brothels continued to thrive.

if those quasi-liberal experiments have not lived up to their proponents' expectations, they have also failed to fulfil their detractors' greatest fears. they do not seem to have led to outbreaks of disease or under-age sex, nor to a proliferation of street prostitution, nor to a wider collapse in local morals.

which brings us back to that discreet transaction between two people in private. if there's no evidence that it harms others, then the state should let them get on with it. people should be allowed to buy and sell whatever they like, including their own bodies. prostitution may be a grubby business, but it's not the government's.

[My Alias]

Hookers in Missouri are fighting back. http://www.local6.com/news/3674397/detail.html They've set up their own Web site to monitor vice cops.

[Travis Bickle 2]

RN is right on the mark here; it is definately in the SW's best interest to do a quickie negotiation before she gets in. It's not just for safety reasons but a lot of the gals I pick up say I'd be amazed by the number of guys who offer something ridiculous like ten bucks and then get pissed off when they say no way.

On the other hand police decoys in the United States never get into the Johns car and the only way to safely pick up a SW is to get her in the car and begin driving away before any mention of sex or money.

Most of us guys here will simply drive off if the SW attempts to come to the driver's window or starts asking what we want before she gets in. Most of the SW's know this and will open the passenger door and do a quick sizing up of the the john and his car before getting in. If they ask what I want or if I want a date I simply ask for directions or offer them a ride.

In my city (Seattle) even asking if one is a cop in a prostitution area is enough to get arrested under the cities intent to solicite law. Which I can provide upon request.

To sum it up the SW's will try and do what makes things safer for them and us John's will do the same. We meet somewhere in the middle and both sides are happy.

RN, Also if you would, could you please check out my question on the sexual addiction thread and answer if you deem it worthy?

[Rubber Nursey]

when you weigh up being thrown in lockup for an hour and fined a hundred dollars, against being beaten to a pulp, raped and left to die in a ditch - i'd say most street workers would choose the former. being arrested is the least of their worries.

i don't know much about girls in your part of the world, but here the street workers use those few minutes leaning in the car window to completely assess the prospective client. she notices whether he's drunk or on drugs, peeks around his car for a gun or baseball bat or whatever, checks out the locks to make sure he hasn't messed with them to lock her in and a whole lot of other things.

no, it doesn't guarantee that he's not going to be an axe murderer or rip her off - but as a working girl you really do develop the ability to assess a man's entire character in just a matter of moments. its a survival mechanism. our instinct becomes very finely tuned and in the time it takes for her to lean in and ask you what you want, she's probably got you totally figured you out. sometimes she'll be wrong, but most of the time she will be dead on.

i know that doesn't help you guys much, but - no offence - i would rather see one of you getting a fine, than one of those girls getting her throat cut.

[Horn Dogg]

Somebody please explain to me what the (good)logic is of a street walker insisting that the John state what he wants prior to getting in the car with him?

If all street walkers wised up and stopped doing this stupid practice then at least it would be harder for LE to bust Johns.

Is it so hard for a street walker to get into a John's car without saying anything and doing the "feel" test after the John has driven away for at least a block from the initial pick up stop before starting the negotiations? I'm sure this isn't a cure all but at least it greatly minimizes the risk of getting busted by LE.

What does the street walker get out of asking the John to state his intentions before getting into the car with him. This only makes any half way intelligent John suspicious that the street walker is an undercover LE. Thus the street walker loses a lot of potential (smart/suspicious) Johns.

Even if the John does state his intentions prior what does the street walker gain versus waiting and being more cautious about business dealings by doing what I suggested above.

The John can always change his mind as to the initial offer he made to her while he is in the car and she is outside. Or the guy can be a psycho killer bullshiting about how much he will pay her to lure her into the car. So I don't see the benefit of getting a John to state his intentions prior to getting into a car with them. Unless of course the supposed street walker is really a undercover LE.

[My Alias]

A fun court document from the case of United States of America vs. Charles Floyd Pipkins, aka Sir Charles, and Andrew Moore Jr., aka Batman, a couple of pimps from Atlanta. http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200214306.pdf. Note this document details the behind-the-scenes life of a pimp in Atlanta and requires Adobe Acrobat Reader to open (Adobe Acrobat Reader is a free download that can be found with an Internet search. Most computers come with it already loaded.)

[My Alias]

Omaha pulling the old Post-The-Johns'-Names-On-A-Billboard ruse. http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=...&u_sid=1169009

[Domino]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3900361.stm

I thought this article which briefly explains how some different countries tackle prostitution might be of some interest.

[Rabo Verde]

Cops, D.A. tangle over strip club raids

Phillip Matier, Andrew Ross
Monday, July 12, 2004



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------






More sparks are flying between San Francisco police and District Attorney Kamala Harris -- this time over the D.A.'s refusal to prosecute nine women the vice cops arrested on prostitution charges during raids at a couple of "theater" clubs a few weeks back.

"It just leaves me in amazement,'' says vice Capt. Tim Hettrich, who likened the D.A.'s inaction to "almost legalizing prostitution.''

The D.A.'s office sees it a bit differently -- calling the arrests "business as usual'' and saying that while the cops were all too eager to arrest the women, they all but ignored the club's owners and the alleged johns.

If it all sounds a bit political, that's because it is.

Sex clubs have long been a tricky proposition in liberal San Francisco politics. For years, the attitude -- especially under libertine former D.A. Terence Hallinan -- seemed to be, "Don't ask, don't tell,'' especially at clubs whose owners were involved in local politics.

Plus, there's always been the question of whether prostitutes are criminals or victims.

Then, when the new D.A. came into office, the vice squad -- under the supervision of Fajitagate hyper-investigator Joe Dutto -- decided the time had come to start a cleanup. He called the club prostitution "out of control.''

The first step was to send letters to a couple of dozen strip clubs warning that investigators would be checking on their business licenses and permits.

The cops' move apparently set off an alarm at the D.A.'s office. Because the next thing you know, everyone was having a sit-down at which the cops agreed to back off until Harris could come up with a game plan that included the police and the city attorney -- after ironing out such issues as "abuse of the dancers, police misconduct during arrests and selected enforcement,'' according to a D.A.'s statement.

And while the cops waited ... and waited ... the public complaints kept coming in. Eventually, they decided to move on their own.

A pair of stings followed, one at the Market Street Theater and the other at the New Century Theater on Larkin Street. In each case, three undercover officers said they were solicited for sex acts by female employees within minutes.

In all, nine women were arrested -- and so was the male general manager of the New Century, who was booked for allegedly keeping a house of ill repute.

The cops said they were slam-dunk cases, but Harris' office took one look at the arrests and tossed them all.

And the bad-mouthing began.

The D.A.'s office says that the cops acted out of hand and that rather than wasting time and money on raiding clubs, they should be on the streets fighting more serious crimes.

In fact, Harris' office said in its statement, "We have had no arrests of street-level pimps and johns.''

"That's an outright lie,'' countered Dutto, who says the cops arrest 50 to 70 johns every month. He also said juveniles picked up for prostitution are routinely interviewed in an attempt to get them to turn on their pimps.

As for the club raids, the cops say they were just doing their jobs.

"When we went out there, we found girls who were engaging in acts of prostitution in the (illegally enclosed) booths, and that's why we took action, '' Hettrich said.

This being San Francisco, there's always another card in the deck somewhere. In this case, it's the feeling in the D.A.'s office that the cops are trying to use busts as a way to embarrass Harris for her refusal to bring a death penalty case against the alleged killer of Officer Isaac Espinoza, a popular cop who was shot to death in the Bayview this past spring.

Hettrich called the "payback'' spin "absolutely B.S.''

Maybe, but it does underscore the still-testy feelings between the two camps down at the Hall of Justice.

[Bez Bezarra]

Whoa Nelly!!!

The planets must really be aligned perfect tonight as I was just moments ago handed a rarely seen LE Monger's Saturday Night Special ! You just never know when the cops will get ya laid.

Yes, tonight it was the old

LE-in-reverse druggy-stripper hot 'n extra horny first grudge fuck outa the can !

The lovely and flat broke Lisa had been locked up by SoFla's finest for the last 17 days, and thanks to a friend of a friend and lucky timing, she just became MY new friend only 5 hours after getting released. Eager to share her sweet firm 34's with little pink pointy nips, and a gash that kept gettin' hotter and squirmier the more I tongued her and plunged her, she was unable to blow me thanks to her broken jaw courtesy of her A-1 ex-prince boyfriend, but still had the spunk to spin around at the proper moment to recieve gobs of my goo on her back molars. No longer broke nor suffering from a case of sperm deficiency, she's smiling now stoned, dumb, and full of come.
Have to say thanks to LE this time, now that's what I call serving the public!

[Pluto2]

AGE of CONSENT

This is the address of a chart tha lists the age of consent for every country in the world. Obviously prostitution laws probably make it 18 in almost every country where is legal.

ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

[Short One #2]

I agree about 5 stings week being a bit much even considering the size and population of Dade, Broward, and Palm Bch counties. Where Mangus is totally correct is on the number of johns picked up. I got nailed once and was cuffed, processed and told to get walking aka "get the flock out of here" within a matter of 20 mins. The cops were set up in a bank parking lot about 3 blocks away from where I was snagged, there were about 10 of them doing processing and the motherf***rs had about 5 towtrucks in line, motors running ready for the next asshole. The next morning when I went to get my car back there were about 20 other poor assh**les waiting in line, and those are the ones with the $1000 in hand. I'm sure there were another 20-30 guys who couldn't come up with the money or had been drinking and went to the stockade instead of for a walk.

It IS all about money, Miami is one big payoff city and I'm sure the towtruck companies donate lots of money to the judges and commisioners who put these laws on the books. And it cannot be a coincidence that Miami started that sh*t in the middle of a financial crisis. Regarding the amount of female officers, I think they use city workers to expand the pool and probably deputize them or some sh*t like that.

Must be nice to be a Police Major, cause you could probably get the bi*ch to blow you before she went out as a decoy, LOL.

Stay Safe in Mongerland and F**k the Police.

[Rabo Verde]

SAN FRANCISCO
Financier indicted on charges of molesting kids in Thailand, Mexico
- Bob Egelko, Elizabeth Fernandez, Chronicle Staff Writers
Saturday, June 19, 2004



Federal prosecutors have unsealed an indictment charging multimillionaire San Francisco financier Robert F. White with traveling to Thailand and Mexico to molest and exploit children.

The grand jury indictment, reported by The Chronicle in April, accuses the 68-year-old White of conspiring to violate the so-called child sex tourism law. That law prohibits traveling from the United States to other countries to have sex with minors, even if the sexual activity is legal where it took place. He also is charged with conspiring to produce child pornography.

Besides imprisonment, prosecutors seek forfeiture of homes owned by White in Thailand and Mexico, or if the foreign properties cannot be seized, then of two buildings in San Francisco.

White has been jailed in Bangkok since February 2003 fighting extradition to Mexico, where he is charged with child sex abuse, child prostitution and providing drugs to minors. A ruling on extradition is due from a Thai court next Friday. He also has been sued for damages by some of his alleged victims -- all of them young males -- in U.S. District Court in San Francisco and in state court.

One of those plaintiffs, Daniel Garcia, now 21, said Friday he never thought he would see the day that White was charged in the United States.

"It's been such an uphill battle for two years,'' said Garcia, who helped to set the federal investigation in motion and has traveled the world on behalf of White's alleged victims. "For someone who has such wealth and power as Tom White, it's amazing that this is happening to him. It's good to know that the wheels of justice turn slowly, but they do turn.''

White's attorney, Stuart Hanlon, predicted his client would be acquitted.

"It appears that this is part of the U.S. Justice Department's ... making legal decisions based on what they view as moral,'' Hanlon said. "It's the religious right-wing agenda of John Ashcroft. This administration feels we're the police of the world.''

White, an investor and stockbroker, founded Thomas F. White & Co. in 1978. The Chronicle reported in 2002 that he had apparently funded a children's school and shelter in a Thai resort area and paid to build an orphanage, a school and an adjoining 53-site resort hotel south of Puerto Vallarta, Mexico.

According to the indictment, dated March 23 and unsealed Thursday, White conspired with unnamed individuals to travel to Mexico between 1999 and 2001, and to Thailand between 2000 and 2003, to molest juveniles.

The conspirators provided "food, shelter, gifts and other material objects'' to the youths in Thailand and made and shared photographs of them, the indictment said. It also described a December 2001 e-mail in which another conspirator allegedly discussed creating a room next to a children's room in Thailand for White to have sex.

The private damage suit against White, which is still pending, alleges that he used food, shelter and gifts to lure poor children - some living on the street, others working as prostitutes - to his house about 50 miles south of Bangkok, where he and his friends would have sex with them.

No one else was charged in the indictment. White's personal assistant, Nathan Lovaas of Modesto, was indicted last September on similar federal charges.