Thread: Macunaima in Brazil
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11-13-05 12:07 #82To clarify, I didn't say the women were very professional, my assertion is that they often go beyond mere professionalism. You're response has good points, many of which I will not refute because I agree.
Originally Posted by Macunaima
However, if you look at another job in the service industry, being a waitress (of which I have known many, and even worked in restaraunts for summer jobs as a younger man), and examine the girls who are the most successful at this, I would assert that these are the ones who have a true enthusuasm for their job. They have the ability to find enjoyment in their job and that enthusuiasm comes through to the customers. It make them happy to make others happy, to please them, to give them a good experience. Yes, they force on a smile at moments that they are feeling tired, or when they encounter a difficult customer because they have learned this will get them tips, but their general approach is not that it is all just a complete act and deep down they hate what they do and have no concern for their customer. In reality, what makes them good is a true desire to please people. It is common knowledge that the best sales people are the ones who really believe in what they are selling -there's a certain level of enthusiasm that can't be faked.
What I am really refuting here is the notion that the Brazilian girls are simply better at the "lie" than anyhwere else in the world. What was the James Bond movie where the villian says to 007, "the best lies are also the truth?" I think there is a general enthusiasm for sex amongst this culture including the pros. Ok, they may not cum, but more importantly, do they ENJOY it? If a girl is showing physiological signs during sex of heightened arrousal (I hate sounding this scientific about something I do purely for enjoyment, but here goes) of increased heart rate and breathing, sweating etc isn't the "scientific proof" that she is "into it?"
Maybe you need to interview these girls and then get them to wear various monitoring devices when they go out on calls to really find the truth. Maybe a governmet funded study where the monger would only pay 1/2 price for the girl as long as he agrees to let her wear a "wire?" Ok, I joke, but somewhere in here is a real point. I'm not exactly a wide eyed novice at this and I'm trying to convice you that there may be another side to what the girls are telling you. It might be neat and easy (and politically correct) to draw the conclusion that these hardened pros are putting on an act for naive gringo's but I promise you that isn't the whole story.
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11-13-05 09:25 #81
Mac, I have two questions for you.
Do you have any statistics on which are the main reasons for brazilian women starting to work as pro's? Unemployment, single mothers, easy money or a need to support a more expensive lifestyle?
To me it seems like the majority of the pro's are single mothers. This seems to be specially true in VM. I guess in Rio it might be tempting for some girls in the favelas to earn a months salary in one night in Copa.
Second question. What are the percentage of pro's addicted to drugs, or using it regularily?
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11-13-05 04:30 #80Wow, your English reading comprehension is getting worse by the minute. I didn't say you were mocking and taunting me. I'll take your response as an admission of guilt. I'll leave you to pretending to be who you like on this thread. Originally Posted by Macunaima
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11-12-05 23:37 #79
Hard to say if there's "typical", BB.
As much as I can say anything, though, typically, being a GdP isn't a lifetime career. Many women drop into it and out of it again. Others go for a few years, then stop.
The older you get, the cheaper the market gets, unless you're very gifted in giving people fantasies. So around about 30, even the most successful start looking at getting out.
The best manage to make enough money to buy a house or apartment. More marry out, either to gringos or Brazilians. Some of these end up coming back, however, with or without their husband's knowledge.
Many GdP's have kids - probably about as many as "normal" women.
It's easier to "start over" with a gringo than a Brazilian. But many women, maybe even most, don't even try to hide their past. They're not ashamed of it and won't be marrying anyone who is.
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11-12-05 23:33 #78
Whatever, Comgo.
Why should I bother wasting my time arguing with a man whose only refrain is that everything I say is a bald-faced lie, and yet who feels that anyone who disagrees with him is "mocking and taunting" him? Quero dizer, que que Maria leva? LOL
You're obviously having a great time bullshitting and don't need my help, so I'll leave you to play with yourself. Whenever you're ready to treat others with the respect you demand, I'll be ready to talk. Until then, why don't you go have fun somewhere else?
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11-12-05 21:50 #77
What's the typical life of a GDP ?
Macunaima, What do GDP do after being on the program? Do they marry? Do they live on their own? Do they have children? Can they hide their past life? What is the typical lifecourse of a Garota de Programa?
Regards.
BB
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11-12-05 20:36 #76So much nonsense in one post, it's hard for me to address it all, but I'll try. Go learn the meaning of spam, you obviously don't know what it means. I'm still not sure what you think you mean by Brazil is second to the U.S. as far as mapping the human genome; you're wrong. Universities do hire professors, researchers, and lecturers from abroad for diversity so you're wrong again. Either you have a weak sex drive or tell me how you get 4+ different non-pro's in a day, day after day. Nobody thinks that you're better than them, the reason why I find it hard to believe that you don't monger is because you're an ex-erotic dancer that studies prostitution and lives in/moved to a country that is full of prostitution. You would think someone as obviously obsessed with prostitution such as yourself has partaken in it at least some. It's not a matter of me respecting your decision not to monger, but I don't believe you unless you're lying about other things regarding yourself such as you're castrated or a priest(then I would think you molest boys). You say that most sex workers you know never have paid for sex, well, newsflash most sex workers are women, and women can get sex for free from 10 guys per day much more easily than a man could do the opposite. You did mock Exec Talent and other board members by saying things sarcastically like they're superior gringo's that all the ladies need to be their sugar daddies. If you really want to deny that you mocked anyone, I'll pull up your posts. First, you state that you were 17 in 1984 when you came to Brazil and now you state 16, keep your lies straight. Why would a 16-17 year old move to Brazil anyway and how did this legally happen (meaning visa-wise)? Did you move with your family? Why did your gringo family move to Brazil in 1984 to some crappy interior rural state that you claim? The more you talk, the more full of it you seem. You need to stop taking introduction to anthropology courses and start taking a reading comprehension course because you most definitely wrote that what I wrote was crap in your post that I quoted. Go re-read it again. Your assertion that I'm using two different weights and measures is like the rest of your post: nonsense. Originally Posted by Macunaima
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11-11-05 17:48 #75
Good posts Macu!
As always very informatives.
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11-11-05 15:46 #74
Carlos, regarding numbers of pros, consensus doesn't make for reasonable stats. People can agree about really stupid things. The fact of the matter is number we come up with is just a guess and a consensus guess is no better than a disputed guess.
I'd say my 1,000 - 5,000 estimate of the flow of pros through the gringo market is pretty good, for the reasons I mention below. I think El Aus is right that it tends to fall more towards the lower side of that than the higher, most of the time, but then agian, he's never been here in Carnaval and those of you guys who have can back me up on this: the Copa scene BOOMS from December to February. It's almost unrecognizable to the people who are used to seeing it on the off-season.
And if my numbers are correct, that 10,000 for Rio seems to me to be just too low. There are almost as many women in Vila Mimosa and the Quinta, put together, than in Copa in the off-season, I'd say, and those are just two of the dozens of "Brazilian" zonas in this city.
Also, both SP and Rio are well-known as prostitution migration destinations, so we can't estimate, based on the numbers in these cities, how many pros we have globally. It's like counting actors in New York and L.A. and saying "OK, there are so many here and these two cities are x% of the U.S. population so..." As L.A. and NYC are meccas for actors, SP and Rio are meccas for pros. Girls come here to make it big so, logically, our populations here should be well above the national average.
I think you're probably right, though: the numbers over all are probably less than 1% rather than more.
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11-11-05 15:21 #73
WF sez:
"However, I think you are overly cynical on the girls rarely getting any pleasure from this- idea. I don't disagree that there are fake orgasms and boring times for them, but I think perhaps the girls paint a darker picture to you than the reality."
Perhaps, WF. But an objective person would say that mongers paint a brighter picture to me than the reality. Given monger's opinions on this topic and the girls', I'm inclined to go with the girls because, after all, they are the ones who are experiencing orgasm or not.
Let's put it this way: both sides are biased, but only one side has access to the reality of the question. And, to tell the truth, it's mongers who are buying fantasies and opros who are selling them. Given that, it seems to me to be the hieght of foolishness to presume that a guy who is paying for a fantasy can be an objective witness to this sort of thing. Hell, most guys can't even tell when a woman cums when they are trying very hard and sincerely to please the woman in question. So I simply don't think it's a rational argument to believe that they can tell when they are paying for the fantasy of doing whatever they please.
And let's presume, as you do, that pros tend to paint their world darker than it is. OK. But why lie about this part and why lie so constitently? It doesn't seem to be taboo to cum with a client, so why would almosy all pros choose this particular thing to say, when they give a variety of opinions otherwise?
Finally, notice something here: while EVERY pro I've ever interviewed claims she doesn't cum with clients (though a few have mentioned that there have been exceptions to this rule, very occasionally), it seems to me that the majority of mongers ALSO don't believe that pros cum with clients.
So it seems to me to be the height of rationality to believe this is the general rule, though there may be exceptions. The guys who are saying opposite are generally the guys who are very into the idea of giving a woman pleasure and this is the fantasy they pay for. I mean, as I said above, what kind of message does a guy think he's giving a good pro when he goes down on her, as several of the group which claims they routinely give pros orgasms say they do...?
Now, you ask: "they are not enjoying their work on some level, why then would a girl stay for 3 hours or all night when you only pay her for 1? Why do some girls want you to keep screwing them even when you want to stop or ask you to go down on them a second time etc?"
The short answer is because it's good business, especially if it's a slow night. By giving more than you ask for, the woman has a much greater chance of getting one of three things: 1) a repeat visit, 2) extra tips or gifts (such as a nice breakfast, paid for by the client the next morning) or even 3) a boyfriend/sugar daddy.
#2 is most likely. Mostly this happens after midnight, when the chance of the woman getting another trick is very, very low. If she leaves her current customer satisfied, she can sleep in with him and maybe cage a nice breakfast, at the very least. Hotel breakfasts typically run around 20 reais. It's a not-inconsiderable tip on a 150-300 real trick.
But #1 is also a biggie. I mean, look at how many reports get passed arounf here about how "you should look for Fulana at Termas So-and-so because she gives really good service" or "Watch out for Beltrana at Help! She's a rip-off". The women know you guys communicate among yourself and it pays to advertise.
Given all that, if you've got the energy, giving good service is always a plus. Why is this logic different from the logic of any other good worker in any other trade you can name?
Now, you say that the women here are very professional, and I agree. That kind of enthusiasm IS the mark of a first rate professional who knows what she's about. It's the kind of "professionality" you - or any client - recognizes in any other service industry. Why do we have it in Rio? Two reasons...
1) A looooooong history of professional prostitution in this town where it's easy to get an apprenticeship with an older, more veteran woman.
2) More control of the market in the hands of women than in the hands of pimps. You NATURALLY do a better job when you're working for yourself. You go that extra mile and do better work. You tend to say "time's up, I'm outta here" when it makes no fucking difference at all because you are getting paid to simply show up and you will be paid the same ammount, tommorrow, to show up.
Compare Copa girl's attitudes with those of the girls working VM and you'll see this in action. A VM pro will NEVER want to fuck you for longer than you pay for because she's being paid for low cost piece work. As soon as you are out of there, she's going to have another client in no time at all. Sure, if she's good, she'll be pleasant, because she'll want you to some back. But at 20 reais a pop, it's just as easy for her to hustle another client as it is for her to hustle you, so she's not going to say "Oh, stay here just another hour with me honey, it's on the house."
Time is money in VM. It is NOT in Copa. In Copa, money is your ability to give the client exactly what he wants and, 9 times out of 10, that's something a bit more than 15 minutes of "eham, bam, thank you ma'am" sex.
If it were a "Brazilian thing" or even a "female thing", you'd see the same behavior in VM and in Copa. You don't see it, however, because it's an economics thing. In the one market, time is money and in the other, service is money.
Prostitution on Copa is a very competitive, professional, cut-throat business and the women who suceed are precisely the ones who are willing and able to do what you are looking for and - better yet - be able to suss this out without your telling them specifically.
It's professionalism which makes that sort of thing common on Copa, WF, not naivete or the woman's need for sex.
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11-11-05 15:00 #72
Sperto, there is a significant ammount of sexual slavery going on in Brazil. Very little of it, if any, is happening in Copacabana.
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11-11-05 14:58 #71
Ezinho asks about gringo mongers vs. Brazilian mongers, which is a really good topic for discussion.
1) I think most of them would laugh at the idea. However, I've heard plenty of stories over the years from Brazilian johns who say things like this, so I think this kind of thing does happen to them as well. The difference of the matter is that when it happens, the explanation is that THIS woman, in particular, is different from "all the rest". The common expectation is that pros don't cum. Many gringos, on the other hand, seem to think that Brazilian women are a special branch of feminine humanity, so when a gringo falls into something like this, especially if he's had little life-experience here, he's more likely to believe that his experience represents "Brazilian women" or "Brazilian prostitutes" as a whole, and not one individual exception to the rule. Again, I'm talking in generalizations here...
2) It isn't very common at all, which is why the pros, on the whole, consider gringos to be much better marks for this thing. The REASON why it's more common with gringos, in my view, has to do with the fantasies many of them are projecting on Brazil as a whole, which makes it easier for them to suspend disbelief in an illusion. Typically, the middle-class white collar professionals who go to termas have no illusions at all about "Brazilian women" or about prostitution in this country. The woman in question is much more "readable" to them. Simply opening her mouth and talking is going to give the guy a good idea about where she came from, what her class level is, and etc. All this tends to put a quash on romance. It's like this: an American hears a certain kind of harsh, Jersey accent, being spoken by a woman who makes really obvious language errors, it's going to tell him something about that girl and, unless he's unusual, it's going to make it harder for romance to bloom. Romance is, after all, largely based on mystery and ignorance. How many times have you seen foreign guys in the States dating what's obviously a chick fresh out of the trailer park, but they are completely oblivious to this, because they don't pick up on any of the signs? They're just happy to be dating the blond American of their dreams. Now, of course, there are exceptions to this rule, and there have been plenty of Brazilian guys who've fallen in love with termas chicks over the years. In general, however, they aren't envied, but pitied. Their stories get told in the same tone of voice that you'd talk about your daft uncle Charley who blew his fortune running off with that stripper. There are also Brazilian guys who try to do the "mack daddy" routine: you know, playing sugar daddy to a series of pros. That seems to be endemic to the sex trade wherever one goes. But these guys typically don't marry the women they're paying.
3) Copa in general is stigmatized as being expensive and overrun by tourists. In almost anything, whether it be food, booze, sex, music or what have you, you can get a much better deal off Copa than on Copa. But I think the main reason for what you're seeing is that Downtown is the business district and the termas there are convenient to the lawyers, doctors and admen which work there. Plus, it's less likely they are going to be spotted by someone who knows their wife or girlfriend when they enter into a Centro termas rather than a Copa one.
4) In a word, "yech". Few cariocas will shed any tears if it gets torn down. Periodically, Help gets pointed out as a fun place to spend the end of an evening laughing, pointing and people-watching. But in that sense, it's treated sort of like a zoo. A "normal" caricoa woman would not be caught dead in Help without male accompaniment. Where women don't go, guys won't go. And Brazilian mongers, as I said before, can get better deals elsewhere. You thus don't see to many cariocas in there unless they are escorting a tourist.
5) I think, as we say here, "o buraco fique mais embaixo". I engage in debates with a wide variety of Brazilians on this topic, so I have a pretty good idea of what's passing through people's heads. The least thing passing through is "jealousy". No one gets jealous over anyone's access to "public women". What would be the point? Pros are not seen by Brazilian men as being "our women". In fact, historically speaking, one of the biggest arguments in FAVOR of legalized prostitution in places like Copa is that it keeps "those gringo scumbags away from our women".
The major movers and shakers in the witch hunt are, in fact, women and they hate you guys simply because you are too good a target to pass up. In fact, they hate you, professionally, precisely BECAUSE they know that prostitution is mainly a Brazilian thing. The hope of these people is that they can use xenophobia to restrict prostituion generally. They know that if they were to talk about prostituion in and of itself, few Brazilians would get worked up. Especially few male Brazilians. But, ah hah! Sexual tourism and trafficking of women!!!! Those are evil crimes which every true-blooded Brazilian is willing to fight because they represent the evils of Yankee imperialism.
So you guys are being used as a scape-goat and sexual tourism is being used as a trojan horse to attack the sex industry, in general. These people understand VERY WELL that you are the least of Brazil's problems when it comes to "the oppression of women". But you are a wonderful target for mobilizing public sentiment in the direction they want to take it.
Look at Rosinha's current anti-postcard campaign, for example. You've heard about it?
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11-11-05 14:18 #70
Reply to Comgo:
"First, I quote your whole post as a point of reference, and it's not really important enough for me to cut and paste every little bit that I directly address."
Quoting the whole thing is the same thing as quoting none of it, so why not be considerate and save us all the spam?
"Second, mapping of the human genome is an international project and it's finished so I'm not sure what you mean by Brazil is second behind the U.S."
Comgo, surely you know that there were/are different teams within the project? It's not like they were all hanging out in the same laboratory...
As for "that diversity thing", it seems to me that you are confusing two entirely seperate issues: affirmative action and recruitment of foreign specialists. The first is linked to diversity. The second is linked to competence and excellence. Affirmative Action laws require universities to hire American citizens who are in certain categories (black, women, latino). They do not apply to foreign nationals. There is no law which requires universities to recruit Pakistani, Brazilian, or Saudi researchers - in fact, there are several laws which make this a more difficult thing to do. American universities do not do this because it's "hip": they do it because these men and women are often the best in their fields.
I'm suprised you don't know this.
Now, regarding the topic of this board, prostitution...
I can see three reasons why I, myself, would conceivably want to pay for sex. Your mileage may vary, but my reasons (which are appliable to myself alone) would be these:
1) Variety. Fuck with as many different kinds of women as possible. Linked to this would be "expertise": have sex with pros who are willing to do what other women might not be willing to do.
2) Burnt out on relationships. Basically, paying her to leave the next day.
3) Having some physical or social impediment that doesn't allow me to get sex from as many women or the type of women as I would like.
I haven't yet paid for sex because none of these three have ever applied to me. I've always been able to find enough varied and competent partners to satisfy #1 and 3 (note that this isn't because I'm some sort of three-balled man, either. I'm perfectly happy, when I'm single, with having sex a few times a month, which obviously isn't the case of many of the men here, so this fits into the equation, too). Regarding #2, the fact of the matter is that I LIKE having relationships with the women with whom I'm sexually intimate. At the very least, I enjoy being their friend. I've not found that it's hard to have friendships and sex, though a lot of guys here complain about that sort of thing. Perhaps it's because I just hang around with a different crowd than most of the guys here. Perhaps it's because I'm not afraid of the "R" word: I'm willing to let a relationship develop and see where it goes and if I don't like where it's going, I'm willing to put the breaks on it, fast. Whatever the case, my sex life has been good enough that spending money on it - especially the quantitities many guys here seem to go through - just seems to be a big waste. Hell, even after my divorce, when I didn't want a relationship of any kind, I was able to find plenty of sex partners, for free, who ALSO didn't want a realtionship of any kind.
Now, I'll say this once again, because these words have been misconstrued in the past (not in the least by you): none of this make me a "better person" than a monger. I'm not saying this to "mock" anyone: it's just the simple truth. It applies to my life, not yours, and no one should expect you to live your life according to my rythyms.
But if you complain that people don't respect your choice to monger (and I do), why is it so hard for you to respect my choice to NOT monger?
Now, as for me "taunting and mocking" other board members, there's only a couple I've ever exchanged words with and that's been AFTER repeated insults which they've leveled at me. I'd like you to show me where you think I've been "taunting and mocking", because that is not at all my intent here. It seems to me that you're saying this because that's what you think I must be doing, but where, exactly have I done this?
You say "I know plenty of people haven't been with a pro, but those people are not ex-erotic dancers who study prostitution for a living". So I take it that you know many people who've been erotic dancers and who study prostitution, then? I'm just wondering where you get your base for comparison, here. Or perhaps you're assuming things? Most people I used to work with in the sex trade NEVER paid for sex, Comgo. The pros I talk to now also don't pay for sex. It's kind of considered to be a matter of professional pride, so I'm not quite sure why you think being a worker in the sex trade should "naturally" mean having paid for sex. :lol:
While P4P was indeed happening in Brazil back in 1984, it WASN'T happening in the interior of the mostly rural state where I was living at the time - or rather, it was happening, but not in a way that appealed to me (paying 5 dollars to malnourished daughters of bioa-frias to suck my dick is not what I consider to be a neato thing). And it wasn't happening in a way that a 16 year old - especially a gringo 16 year old - could just pop in out of the blue, even if he wanted to. While people can and will indeed confirm that Copacabana has been a happening scene since the late 1950s, I think you need to remember that Brazil is hardly Copacabana.
"Sixth, I don't look at it as accusing, but trying to call you on a few things that don't sit right with me about what you say."
Gee, that's interesting, Comgo. Because when I do the same, you accuse me of "mocking and taunting". I mean, immediately after this, you say...
"Saying what I said is crap is an off-hand way of attacking me also just as you're saying that I'm making attacks in an off-hand way."
Now, I've never said anything anyone's said is "crap"., and if you think I have, I'd like you to show me where that's been the case. Like you, I've pointed out "a few things that don't sit right with me". Apparently, in your mind, this is OK when you do it, and "mocking and taunting" whenever anyone else does it. How else can you explain the idea that anyone who disagrees with you is "attacking" you, while you feel completely justified in saying whatever you like about another person, as long as their words "don't sit right" with you?
Seems what we have here, Comgo, is a clear-cut case of two different weights and two different measures...
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11-09-05 23:29 #69
Brasilian Mongers
mac, i'd also be interested in your perspective on ezinho's questions re brasilian mongers. from my experience reading the brasilian monger boards like gpbr.net and gpguia.net, they don't seem to be focused on whether the gdp is enjoying the experience, but rather how well and affectionately she is performing -- in other words, her behaviors rather than her feelings. sort of like reviewing a therapeutic masseuse in the usa: we focus on how well she did the massage, not whether she enjoyed it. the boards do show a lot of affection for the top performers, though, and many of the top performers participate in discussions about their performance.
the businessmen at my clients in sao paulo do not seem like the types who would ever marry a former gdp -- they are too status conscious. perhaps rio is different. though, like ezinho, the only upper middle class white collar guys i've ever seen in copa or arpoador have been paulistas, not cariocas. when i was with a group of more affluent cariocas at mistura fina one night, a member of the band suggested after the performance that they join him for a drink in copa -- they all acted repelled by the thought, and i think it was copa, not him, that repelled them.
lastly, on the ucsd debate, most contributors have been right about the ranking: it depends which of the six different categories of us news and world reports college categories you use. if you use the overall "best national university for bachelor's degree" rankings, then mac is correct with his #32 slot (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/col...udoc_brief.php). take the "best national public universities" and ucsd is #7, comfortably in the top ten (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/col..._pub_brief.php). look at "comprehensive colleges" and ucsd isn't on the list, as that category excludes national universities. bottom line: they are a pretty good school, although behind uc berkeley and ucla in the university of california system.
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11-09-05 22:52 #68
Numbers of GDP
El Austriaco,
I think that the consensus is that approx. 10.000 GDPs work in Rio, approx. 20.000 in Sao Paolo. These two places are the most frequented places in Brasil.
These two places repesent approx. 10 % of the Brasilian population with a concentration o GDPs. If you guestimate that 30.000 GDPs in these two places are approx. 10 % of the working girls, you reach a total of 300.000 hard-core GDPs in Brasil. Then double the figure for the girls which work "part-time" and you reach the figure of 600.000 GDPs for the entire Brasil with a population of around 150.000.000 - 180.000.000. That is 0,4 - 0,3 % of the population or 4 - 3 in a thousand. You have this figure also in other countries. Maybe even more (Thailand???, Keniya etc???)
The reason for Brasil being so popular is simply that the girls are so beautifull. ( I hope nobody disputes this) Otherwise, I think that Brasil is simply a normal country with an everage population.
I personally love Brazil not only because of the mongering prospects, but also of the quality of life and the friendly people.
These are my dois centavos por hoje.
Cumprimentos
Carlos Primeros
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