Macunaima in Brazil

[Monger 3]

Tiradentes, I hear you about your friend. Prostitution is a lot like football, however: for every Ronaldinho pulling down the mad cash, there are ten thousand would-be Ronaldinhos scratching out a living playing varzea football and dreaming of their big break. Your friend's experience, in other words, is not that of the average prostitute in this town.

Centaurus is well known throughout town as a very-upscale joint in the mid-range prostitution racket. The girls in Centaurus are a small but relatively happy minority and certainly not the average here. Compare your pal to the average girl warming a stool at Balconey, Tira. I guarantee that there are far many more in the second position than the first.

Like I said above, I've looked into plenty of women's cash flow and that money doesn't circulate as widely as you think. 2/3rds of it stays right in the nightlife economy or a few closely related niches.

Mac,
I actually agree with you here. A hooker's operating margins in a city like Rio are probably less than 50%. Meaning, less than half her revenue actually turns into disposable income (and I am defining disposable income and money after hooker expenses...not money after hooker + life expenses).

I knew a Copa classified-apt hooker who charged something like 80R a night and only worked Friday night - Sunday night. She rented the place for a not so cheap rate for those nights...and had to also travel 2hrs to her home in Baixada in the North. Now...the breakeven number of tricks she would have to turn is about 5-7 to cover her costs (rent and travel and food), which is not an insignificant number...

I knew another Copa hooker who worked the restaurant outside of Help. I saw her twice in a 5 day span, and saw her warm seats at the restaurant on the other nights I didnt 'see' her. She also traveled 1.5hrs each way to her hood in the North and basically said she only averaged 3-5 tricks a week...good weeks were none (which was not an infrequent occurence) and busy weeks were 10-15 (around holidays, etc.). I've met several average hookers, and most are not living it up the way some of the Terma pros have made it for themselves...

Also, unlike truly 3rd world dumps, Brazil has very significant economic contributors beyond sex tourism. As Mac says, it can do without the sex tourism, and is trying to do without it in many ways...

[Macunaima]

I stand corrected, Gladiator. And if countries were run as rational business enterprises, you'd be right: they WOULDN'T sacrifice that much of their tourism revenue. But democracies AREN'T run as business enterprises: they make all sorts of non-economical decisions.

Furthermore, there's not just an economic "pull" factor on the pro-pros side of the equation you know. Brazil just LOST 40,000,000 is anti-AIDS grants from the U.S. because it refuses to denounce prostitution. It also received close to a cool million from the EU to work on a pilot anti-sexual tourism program. And these are just two examples, off the top of my head. In other words, anti-prostitution is almost as big an industry, in its own way, as prostitution. This is even more true when one takes into consideration the increased tax burden on society that prostitution represents. Now, the logical way around this is to fully legalize prostitution and tax it and use that to pay for the social costs. However, that's also the logical way around the "drug crisis", isn't it? Just because something makes economic sense doesn't mean that a government is going to do it any time soon.

Tiradentes, I hear you about your friend. Prostitution is a lot like football, however: for every Ronaldinho pulling down the mad cash, there are ten thousand would-be Ronaldinhos scratching out a living playing varzea football and dreaming of their big break. Your friend's experience, in other words, is not that of the average prostitute in this town. The experience of Michael Jordan doesn't mean that playing basketball is a likely and probable way for a kid to get ahead in this world.

Centaurus is well known throughout town as a very-upscale joint in the mid-range prostitution racket. The girls in Centaurus are a small but relatively happy minority and certainly not the average here. Compare your pal to the average girl warming a stool at Balconey, Tira. I guarantee that there are far many more in the second position than the first.

Now, you say...
"You did not factor in the fact that these girls are immediately spending most of their income in rio's economy ( and i am not talking about clothes or crap like that). This in turn gets circulated in so many ways in the brazilian economy, and a lot of people benefit from this."

Like I said above, I've looked into plenty of women's cash flow and that money doesn't circulate as widely as you think. 2/3rds of it stays right in the nightlife economy or a few closely related niches. Clothes aren't a small investment for these girls: they take up to 20% of the budget in some cases. Perfume, etc. takes out more. But the REAL culprits are the dozens of legal ways that what are effectively pimps can get their hands into these girls pockets. Just to get into Help costs 25 reais these days and there are always more women there than men. This means that, statistically, more women strike out every night at Help than turn a trick. So maybe you can count on two tricks a week at Help, if you're reasonably good. Just keeping yourself in play during that period is going to cost close to the value of a trick itself in door fees and booze, not to mention travel fees if you don't live in Copa. So at the end of the month, 1/3rd to 1/2 of your cash has been eaten up by work expenses alone. Woman after woman whom I've interviewed has bitched about this situation to no end. You've got to turn a trick a day for the game to really start paying off and few women can do that for very long. Those who can are, of course, prostitution's superstars and they make their wages accordingly.

And let's not even talk about the fact that many of these ladies are strung out on different brands of informal pharmaceutical products in order to keep up the pace of the job... And for those who aren't, there's plenty of just plain old booze to be paid for at tourist prices.

So when all things are considered, these girls - at least the more average among them - are lucky to be bringing a third of their pay out of Copa. Now, that's still a considerable amount. It's still enough to make it more worth a girl's while to be a Copa pro, say, than a hair-dresser in Realengo. But it isn't this earth-shaking amount of macro-economic fodder that you seem to think it is, Tira.

Closing down the Copa sexual tourism would probably be the equivalent of eliminating a big factory in economic terms. A bummer, to be sure, but Rio's seen and lived through worse. Bottom line: the economy here is far from addicted to the sexual tourism dollar.

[Gladiator]

But you seem to be misreading something, becasue where in my analysis was it ever hinted that the sexual tourism budget amounts to 3% of the State's economy?

I didn't say 3% of RJ's economy, but 3% of RJ's overall tourism revenue, quoting your previous post.

So this makes sexual tourism less than 3% of the total tourist dollar here.

[Tiradentes]

"There are close to 15,000,000 people in RdJ state, IIRC, and only about 10 - 20,000 of them get their primary income through the sexual tourism market, dircetly or indirectly."

Mac;

I strongly disagree with you about the 10 to 20000 people affected by the 'sex' income. You did not factor in the fact that these girls are immediately spending most of their income in rio's economy ( and i am not talking about clothes or crap like that). This in turn gets circulated in so many ways in the brazilian economy, and a lot of people benefit from this.

Let me give a few examples:

1. My favorite girl from terma Centaurus recently bought a big beach front house in Niteroi - that's money circulated in the real estate.

2. On one occasion at the same terma, i happened to sit next to some girls (who weren't busy at the time). They were comparing what cars they were driving; mostly 'chevy Blazers'. That's money spent on the car industry, which is one of the largest revenue of the brazilian economy.

3. Lastly, I can not count the number of times I saw working girls , in their off days, scrolling in Rio Sul mall, buying expensive electronic stuff, etc.

My conclusion, is that, we foreigners do contribute alot to the brazilian and the rio's economy. So, please treat us nice. (ie no dirty looks from the brazilian federales at the airport)

[Macunaima]

Comigo, actually, if you do the math you'll notice I presumed that mongers and regular tourists BOTH spent USD3,000 or BR6,000 in a ten day stay here. I didn't presume that there was a difference between the two. So while you may disagree with that presumption, theres no math error at all: in both cases I presumed a USD of 2BR.

Before you say someone's math skills suck, it's usually a good idea to do the math yourself, Comigo. ;-)

The 3000 USD figure comes straight from the horse's mouth - IBGE - and they make quite an effort to check that shit out. It seems reasonable, given costs in this town. The ten day average stay also comes from the IBGE. That average seems to be true for both mongers and regular tourists, probably because its the average holiday lenght in the U.S. and other countries, minus travel and preparation time. Nothing I've seen indicates that the average monger stays here more than that. He may COME BACK more than the average tourist, but that's neither here nor there for the purposes of these calculations.

As for whether or not your budgets and that of your friends is bigger, again, that's neither here nor there. Many monger budgets I've seen are SMALLER than this, in fact. I admit that more data is needed on thism point, but from what I've seen, mongers are not spending radically higher ammounts than regular tourists.

With regards to money concentration, that one I've got down pretty well, as I've interviewed several pros about their cash flow.

You'd be damned surprised, Comigo. From what I see, I'd estimate that if 33 cents on every real left the Copacabana area and the immediate sexual commerce market, plus those few industries directly related to it (certain clothes and make-up brands spring to mind), it would be a high value. While the Brazilian economy may be small compared to the American economy (and what economy isn't?) it's a bloody immense labyrinth compared to, say, Cuba.

Frankly, taking this money away would probably have large consequences for only a relative handful of people. And it's that "relative" you need to keep in mind, man. There are close to 15,000,000 people in RdJ state, IIRC, and only about 10 - 20,000 of them get their primary income through the sexual tourism market, dircetly or indirectly. So I really can't see how taking that away is going to create screams of rage throughout the carioca body public. Hell, raising the bus rate affects more people more drastically.

Now, as for my data being flawed, Gladiator, some of the ASSUMPTIONS may be, but the data itself is straight from IBGE. I'll be the first to admit that it's very rough and that many questions need to be cleared up. But you seem to be misreading something, becasue where in my analysis was it ever hinted that the sexual tourism budget amounts to 3% of the State's economy? Look at those numbers again: it's more like .3% - or less than 1/3rd of a percent.

That's quite a different number, amounting to one out of every ten tourist dollars. Significant, no doubt. So significant that it's beyond being fucked with for political reasons...? That's the question, isn't it?

My reading is "no" and the reading of some of the guys here is "yes".

Then again, when I started saying 3 years ago that a crusade was getting whipped up (though of course no one could say how big a crusade it was going to be and we still can't) many mongers also told me that "could never happen in Brazil". 'Course, I live here, speak the language, work with pros associations and go to meetings of the state's human rights council where they drum up this shit, so what the fuck could I possibly know about the political and economic context of prostitution in Rio?

[Gladiator]

Macunaima,

My comparison between Cuba and Brazil was only to show that if the authorities really want to eradicate (or reduce to negligible levels) sex tourism they can do it. Cuba wanted to do it in Varadero and did it, Brazil simply doesn’t want to do it in Rio (and many other cities).

It’s true there’re still some good mongering opportunities in Havana and other places in Cuba, but that’s another story.

Cuba had much to earn from cracking down on sex tourism at the time they did it, as prostitution had reached epidemic proportions and was preventing them from developing their mainstream tourism industry, which was still emerging and with great potential for growth. On the other hand, Rio’s mainstream tourism market reached saturation point long ago: they won’t gain more mainstream tourists if the prostitution scene disappeared overnight.

Your research about the scale of sex tourism revenue in Rio seems to be flawed in different ways, I won’t comment on each particular point I disagree with, as that discussion could go on for ever. But even your modest final figure of 3% of the overall tourism revenue in Rio is a significant one – not many local tourism authorities would be happy wiping out 3% of their foreign tourism revenue, especially when they have nothing else to gain in return, apart from satisfying a handful of morality freaks.

[Comgo]

On any given night in Copa, low season, there are probably 500 gringos. High season that might go up to 10 times that. The average tourist stays in Brazil for 10 days. So...

High season (10 x 5000) + Low season (26 x 500) = 63,000 gringos out on Copa looking for cootch every year.

Now, as I said above, most of these guys aren't mongers. In fact, given my research, I'd say at least 2/3rds of them would be here anyhow. So let's say 21,000 mongers visit Rio in a year. The average monger seems to spend about 6000 reais while he's here, so that monger dollar comes to about USD 63,000,000 a year.

Now that's a significant chunk of cash. But Rio de Janeiro receives some 750,000 tourists a year, who spend an average of USD3000 while they're here. Rio's total income, then, is 2,250,000,000 dollars from tourism. Rio's GdP is around 20,000,000,000 dollars annually. So this makes sexual tourism less than 3% of the total tourist dollar here and only about .3% of the total income of Rio.

Mac, your math and economic theory suck, stick to anthro. You think average mongers spend 6000R or about 2800USD but regular tourists spend 3000USD? Are you crazy? You think regular tourists spend more? You think regular tourists who probably come for no more than a week spend 3000USD? There are more mongers than the numbers that you're pulling out of your ass and they spend more than you think. My personal budget is much more than you estimate and I know many other mongers' budgets are as well more. You think that money stays concentrated? Those GDP's inject almost all of that money into your little economy (your economy is little to the 11+ trillion US economy). Even if all the monger money is a few percent of the income of the area, taking it away would have LARGE consequnces, much greater than the percentage it represents because of the ripple effect. I'd actually like for all monger money to stop going to Brazil so you could see what a large negative effect it would have on many local economies there, but keep telling yourself it's trivial.

[Macunaima]

gladiator, i agree that most brazilians could care less about sexual tourism - at least of the kind you guys practice, with consenting adults. but your economicist view of why they don't care is off, imho. cuba needs hard currency far more than brazil and they cracked down, by your own admission. here in rio - and even in forteleza - the amount of money sexual tourism brings into the economy is not significant enough to affect politics at a state or national level. local level, perhaps. e olha lá...

you guys forget how big the economy here actually is. if that sexual tourism dollar is heavily concentrated - and i suspect that it is - there's no reason why other political agents in brazil who don't benefit from it wouldn't try to shut it down. compared to the economy of rdj, sexual tourism is a gnat on the horse's ass.

let's do some raw calculations, shall we?

mongers - people who come here specifically for commercial sex and nothing else - are in fact a minority community in the tourism market. most of the guys at help, for example, on any given night aren't mongers, but regular tourists or businessmen who are there simply because it's there. remove help and they'll still be in country, spending cash elsewhere. the additional money they inject into the economy because of prostitution is almost nil and what they inject tends to stay in the prostitutes' hands - prostitutes don't own many senators or even city councilmen in brazil. so we can cross these guys off the list as an economic factor.

on any given night in copa, low season, there are probably 500 gringos. high season that might go up to 10 times that. the average tourist stays in brazil for 10 days. so...

high season (10 x 5000) + low season (26 x 500) = 63,000 gringos out on copa looking for cootch every year.

now, as i said above, most of these guys aren't mongers. in fact, given my research, i'd say at least 2/3rds of them would be here anyhow. so let's say 21,000 mongers visit rio in a year. the average monger seems to spend about 6000 reais while he's here, so that monger dollar comes to about usd 63,000,000 a year.

now that's a significant chunk of cash. but rio de janeiro receives some 750,000 tourists a year, who spend an average of usd3000 while they're here. rio's total income, then, is 2,250,000,000 dollars from tourism. rio's gdp is around 20,000,000,000 dollars annually. so this makes sexual tourism less than 3% of the total tourist dollar here and only about .3% of the total income of rio.

plus, that cash is pretty heavily concentrated in relatively few hands. face it: you guys simply don't get off of copacabana much.

what all this means is that getting rid of the sexual tourism industry in this city would hurt relatively few people. of those whom it would hurt, most (prostitutes) have little in the way of effective political representation.

so if you're banking on brazil not starting up a crusade, gladiator, be real clear about one thing: it has little to do with economics. i'd say your best chance is simply the fact that the average brazilian doesn't see prostitution by consenting adults as an evil that needs to be combated. but make no mistake: the abolitionists are trying to change that by creating a popular view that gringo sex tourists are, in fact, ****s.

[Gladiator]

I doubt that Brazil will deny entry to the busted guys, because I doubt, to start with, that Brazil has any interest at all in eradicating sex tourism, IMO all Brazilian authorities want is getting some headlines now and then, to make people believe that they are really fighting against sex tourism, when the truth is, as we all know, that sex tourism in Brazil is widely accepted and tolerated.

As an example, look at Iracema in Fortaleza: on any given night there are loads of obvious hookers all over the place, at least 6 clubs frequented exclusively by hookers and sex tourists, it’s probably the biggest hive of activity in the whole city most nights, even with a police station in the middle of the action. And what do the authorities do to fight sex tourism in Iracema? Some occasional raids asking for passports and fining a handful of newbies who don’t have them.

Does anyone believe that they want to eradicate sex tourism that way? However, they get what they want: headlines in papers about how active the authorities are against sex tourism.

If they really wanted to eradicate or substantially decrease the Iracema scene they could easily do as Cuban authorities did in Varadero in the late 90’s: arrest all obvious hookers and close down all obvious mongers’ discos, not an easy job but it can be done if they really wanted to. Some time later, there were no hookers in Varadero, nor mongers. Varadero was (and still is) free of sex tourism, there are only package tourists over there.

Brazil doesn’t really give a shit about sex tourism, they are happy with the hard currency sex tourists inject into the economy, but they need to safe face, so one raid in Natal today fining a few guys with 200 R$, another quick raid in Fortaleza tomorrow and busting one boat in Rio the day after tomorrow will do the job – it won’t affect the overall sex tourism scene in the slightest, but will generate the necessary news to keep some happy.

[El Austriaco]

Can´t really see how a mongers´association would have any weight in such a struggle, considering the current backlash against the hobby. Not that mongers would ever be organized enough to put something like this up, totally agree. But how about a providers´association? After all, prostitution in and by itself is legal in Brazil, and customers, Brazilian or not, who seek such services are also not breaking the law in any way. But at the same time, denying entry to foreigners who seek the services of Brazilian prostitutes and, mostly, pay good rates by Brazilian standards certainly is CLEARLY interfering with the rights of Brazilian sex workers to conduct business as they please. And I certainly can´t imagine that the Copacabana GDPs would be too happy about THAT.

The other really troubling aspect about it is that, well, if you need a visa and are denied one, you might actually be better off, considering that, at least, you don´t spend all the money on a plane ticket and all the time traveling there. Imagine you get there and are sent back on the next plane without any explanation given. Scary. Can´t really imagine that the airlines would be too happy about that. We might have international background checks before you can buy a ticket. In that case, an international monger database can´t be far off....

[Macunaima]

el aus, visa or no, you come through customs where you can be denied entry into the country, no recourse to the law.

sure, you need no visa, but you still have to show id and when you do, your name comes up on the screen and you're told you can't be allowed in "because of your police record". and what, exactly, can you do at that moment?

if this sort of thing is happening, we should hear about it soon, so please keep your ears peeled. the only recourse in situations like this is political or legal activity within brazil and that's where associations like the one i work with might be of help.

"and how can they even possibly claim that someone states a wrong reason for travel to brazil? if i remember correctly, "whoring" is not one of the options on the entry form and, imho, perfectly covered by the term "leisure" or "tourism". i mean, claiming that sex tourism is not a form of tourism is like saying that, technically, "oral sex" does not constitute sex."

they don't have to say or prove anything. you're not a citizen, nor even in the country yet. if they don't want to let you in, for whatever the reason, it's entirely up to them. what are you going to do? take it to the world court? or sue the brazilian government itself within the brazilian legal system? the last option would be your only option, but how many mongers are likely to do that?

the only decent option, as far as i can see it, would be a class action suit and that could take years to resolve. i highly doubt that mongers would be organized enough to get something like that together and stick with it, even with inside help from folks like me.

[El Austriaco]

So what do you want to bet that the Natal busts and the like are simply an attempt to build a database of suspected sex tourists. Then, when these guys ask for their next visa, DENIED, no explanation offered.

But this would only apply to citizens of countries which do require visas, right? As a EU citizen, nobody needs a visa to go to Brazil. I know, because I don´t. What do you think they would do in that case, Macunaima... deny entry upon arrival in Brazil? And how can they even possibly claim that someone states a wrong reason for travel to Brazil? If I remember correctly, "whoring" is not one of the options on the entry form and, IMHO, perfectly covered by the term "leisure" or "tourism". I mean, claiming that sex tourism is not a form of tourism is like saying that, technically, "oral sex" does not constitute sex .

I do agree, however, that they are most likely building a database on "sex tourists". So what do you want to bet that there are right-wing conservative politicians or law enforcement authorities in just about any country who would just die to get their hands onto that information, regardless of whether you engage in anything illegal or not, in the oh-so noble fight against sex tourism. Combine this with Brazilian corruption, and this does not bode well.

EA

[Sunset Strip]

That sounds about what I was expecting. I told a friend of mine about that this weekend. Basically if you are IN A BUST, then you are stained no matter what the end result is.

My friend kept saying that as long as he had his passport and papers he would be okay.
But as you imply the blurry line between sex tourism, mongering, etc. that the Brazilians authorities take advantage of can make a "troublemaker" out of a guy caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

AND the US constituion does not apply, and if you are not Brazilian, as you say, then you have NO RIGHT to a visa!

TJ

[Macunaima]

Here's something to get paranoid about, however.

Over the last few years, the federal police have maintained that they have the right to deport anyone they feel like, at any time. In the case of the boat bust last year, this is what they tried to do. They justified their attempt at deportation by saying that being on that boat was, ipso facto, asmission to lying re: one's reasons on coming to Brazil.

Well, they got that one shoved down their throats by a local judge and the American Consulate.

But get this...

A country has to offer no reason at all as to why it denied your visa, right? You have no necessary right to go anywhere outside your home country.

So what do you want to bet that the Natal busts and the like are simply an attempt to build a database of suspected sex tourists. Then, when these guys ask for their next visa, DENIED, no explanation offered.

Brazil has done shit like this before and it's worth thinking about.

[Sunset Strip]

Hi Lover Boy,

I doubt black people got targeted in these raids. There were a FEW black faces in the Natal raid pictures. But in Brazil we should expect to see some black faces. Most likely, they were not even from the USA.

And in the Copa raids I wil bet anybody busted is involved in actual sex tourism. That is what happened last year with the boat raid.

Somebody here mentioned they could be targeting AFAMS in large groups. That is no likely. Remember the boat incident last year was caused by some guy who was coordinating the sex--we call it pimping in the US--not because there were a lot of black men there.

Let's not get paranoid about Rio. And blacks who read these posts should remember that the overwhelming majority of people busted have NOt been black!
TJ