Macunaima in Brazil

[Bango Cheito]

Actually, my point about the same girls charging vastly different prices in NYC was EXACTLY based on CL. You can peruse CL and trip over every second girl who I'd probably know from the underground parties and who'se standard rates there are $40-50 oral $80-100 FS $120-150 anal. I have had $50 and $60 FS here at those parties from girls who advertise on CL for $200-300!

I always thought that taking a girl out of Help would set one back 200 reais or so, and that would be for an overnight, not just one hour (I personally have never cared for overnight but to others it may make a big difference). At any rate you can easily go to a decent therma for an hour for under 200 reais, which today clocks in at $85.43 USD, and with that you get the whole menu, and as many pops as you want.

Once again, I refer you to the NYC boards here, and I recommend you read up on people's experience of CL girls here. I have never used CL for that purpose, but part of the reason why is that I have learned from my friends' mistakes here!!

Another issue is, I live in the Bronx, and the vast majority of outcall girls (CL or otherwise) will not touch here, even though my neighborhood is fine. Not to mention I don't want the girls knowing where I live, nor do I want my neighbors seeing girls come in here! In Brazil they actually have the OPPOSITE problem, meaning if you stay in a 5 star you won't be able to bring a girl up so easily! But at any rate, you certainly dont have to worry about getting busted for ordering an escort like you do here in NYC!

And finally, I think there is a HUGE difference between the way the girls look here and the way they look down there. One could argue about which look better in what neighborhood at what age at what time of the year etc., but there is no denying there is a difference.

I have never actually travelled anywhere just for mongering, but I totally understand why people would do it. A Latin American destination can be great value for your $, and also you can experience things you wouldn't necessarily be able to experience so easily here.

[Wandering Fool]

Bango, I want to inject a somewhat different view from your own about NYC mongering. I have been thinking lately how the explosion of Craigs List in the US, especially in the big cities like LA and NY, is changing the landscape for mongering. Yes, there have been crackdowns escpecially in NY of the large established agencies, but those girls are still around. There was a recent article that I will try to locate that touches on exactly what I've been noticing...craigslist is making it so easy for girls to advertise and get a quick hookup that more and more non-pros are entering the game. The average hourly is $200 and half hours can be had for $100-$150. With the current exchange rates these are competitive with the rates at Help.

The quality, like Help. varies greatly. Most of the advertisers in the last year have figured out that they need to post photos to get any business so there's plenty of visuals to help narrow your decision. Lots of fake and misleading photos but also many real. Many, maybe most, are indies, part timers, first timers etc. I've had two recently who were literally first day on the job girls who were just "trying it out", having been drawn in by friends who do it. Also, since the agencies aren't involved with many of these, there's a casualness, especially with the newbies that reminds me of Brazil. Clock watching and adherence to rules is loose if the girl likes you. It's also easy to turn them away if their appearence is sub par since there's no agency (and often no driver) to give them muscle.

I don't agree that "most 50 dollar girls are also 500 dollar girls." This is an exageration, although I've been in the room with a 300 girl who then gets a call from her 600 dollar agency for a gig -so, yes, depending on where you find them, the rates can vary greatly. That's the beauty of Craigs List, its where the girls are putting out their lowest dollar prices for service.

I also disagree that incall in NYC is rare. It's alive and well, just not with major agencies. It's all indies renting hotels and apartments in midtown now. Just go to eros.com or craigs list and look at everyone advertising. Once they get enough clients they stop advertising for a while -no need to keep a higher than necessary profile.

I think the indy scene (which is the most fun to me) is more popular than ever, due in part to craigs list. Yes, there has always been the Voice and Free Press, and for quite a while, eros.com and a few others, but somehow, craigs list is so quick and spontaneous to run an ad, and now everyone has a camera in their phone, so girls who normally would not have gone to the trouble of running ads in these other outlets are suddenly giving it a shot.

This is a phenomenon that has literally happened over the last 18 months or so. Prior to that, it was the same 5 girls running ads on CL.

Ironically, since NY has such a large latina population, it really can seem like a trip to Brazil without ever leaving your apartment!

[Bango Cheito]

TJ, MO, Brazilian porn totally trumps American porn. Yes, American porn still outsells it by quite a big margin, although the gap is closing more and more. But Coca Cola also way outsells Chianti, but I will still always prefer the latter, even if I pay 20 times more for it!

Am I down on American culture? You bet your ass I am! I'm not trying to keep it a secret, but a more detailed discussion would probably be too OT for this board :P, come see Macu and me on brazzil.com if you want to argue it further!

Macu, once again, I can only speak from personal experience, but my personal experience is far from small. From the girls I have known personally, there does seem to be a preponderance of 'please fuck me so hard I feel it in my stomach' from American females as opposed to other females, to the point of me starting to lose interest in the act. Based on these experiences, it would seem to me to be a nationwide cultural difference.

[Bango Cheito]

TJ, I cannot speak for your particular neck of the woods, because my main area of experience is in NYC. BUT in NYC even the underground shit has been almost totally and completely shut out at all but maybe the highest levels. Incall is just short of impossible anywhere in the five boroughs and even in outlying areas. I encourage you to look at the NYC Conn and Jersey forums on here and check it out. For awhile a bunch of mongers (and girls) were heading out as far as Bridgeport and Newburgh (both places an hour+ drive from NYC limits) to do biz. Even these areas got shut down by local LE!

Out of the handful of promoters I know in the NYC area all but one have been shut down in the last 5 years. And the one still operating has suffered a bust in the past year, and is now operating on a very limited and security-conscious basis. For example, if I wanted to go to an event with a friend from out of town I'd have NO WAY of getting his ass through the door!

If you cross reference any of the NYC area posters on this board you will find very few of them havent also been posting more on other areas of the board, usually DR, CR, Colombia or Brazil! One formerly very active poster who used to be instrumental to this board that I know personally now goes down to the DR to do all his mongering, as in 9-10 times a year.

[Macunaima]

BC, American porn is a very good indicator of AMERICAN FANTASY, yes. I mean, it may have a lot to say about the American unconscious, but it isn't a good "ethnographic" view of what yanks actually do in bed.

"Just one more point, in NYC anyways, most of the $500 an hour girls are also $50 an hour girls, and also walk the track from time to time when they really need that extra push to make ends meet. The different strata of girls here is largely a smokescreen, I know many girls who work for some clients for $50, others for $100 and others for several hundred for the same services."

Good observation. Thats true here too. Many of the women from VM and Tiradentes will be flooding into Copa over the holidays in order to pick up easy cash.

[Sunset Strip]

In an earlier discusion, Bango and Macu were comparing the two nations. BAngo was correct in saying that there are severe crackdowns on prostitution in the US., IN fact, I always tell people NOT TO MONGER IN THE US. YOu will lose your car or they will fine you a ridiculous amount of money. AND YOU WILL HAVE A POLICE record. In most major cities, as BC, said many of the pros. are undercover. DO NOT DO IT.

But then again I think if you are rich enough then you can pay to have a call girl or go to a private place that caters to your crowd. These types of places are increasing.

So in that respect both of you are correct. Street prostitution is difficult. But Prostitution is still in full swing in the US. It is just becoming an inside, private thing. Hey, MAC, does this sound like good, old contradictory behavior to you.

Have either of you seen the movie American Pimp? They talk about how things are moving inside.
TJ

[Sunset Strip]

Bango,
I had the feeling when I began your post that you were going to go on an anti-American rant, and you did. How is anything that you said a neat analogy of American society??? MAybe it is a neat analogy of the world in general.

And you make a comment that Brazilian porn beats American porn. Then why is American porn so prevalent in Brazilian sex shops. Ever heard of the Buttman, Lexington Steel, Anabolic Video, Red Light District? No, well plenty of Brazilians have!

I do not want to start an argument, but please try to be fair in your posts. MACU actually is trying to be fair here. He is saying that PEOPLE, no matter were they are, live lifes fraught with contradictions.

Somehow it seems you think you and MACU are making similar arguments, but that is very untrue.You are just trying to ridicule Americans. That is unfair.

TJ

[Bango Cheito]

I think that American porn in many ways is a VERY good indicator of the American psyche. For example, it's ok for the woman to fake an orgasm, and for them to have to edit the pop shot because even the guy is getting bored, but using condoms is a no-no because then it wouldn't be 'real'.

American porn focuses largely on big dicks and big (almost always fake) breasts. Every scene is the same, with the obligatory facial cumshot. There is always a big push for anal and the emphasis is not on eroticism or creativity but rather on just how much a girl can 'take' in her ass and how hard the guy can fuck her so that she feels it in her throat through her ass. Kind of a neat analogy for how American society in general lives and dies in pursuit of $$$$$ and leaves a lot of more important (IMO) things by the wayside!

To me Brazilian, Euro, and Japanese porn kicks the shit out of American porn in every way shape and form. Likewise, the Brazilian mongering experience kicks the shit out of its American counterpart in so many ways, at ANY price point, but especially as you go up the ladder. Of course there is lots of shit Brazilian porn too, like the Vivi Fernandes clip up on brazzil.com!

As far as 'normal' girls, I would surmise that as long as you stick to big cities, if you have any game, you can hook up for free almost anywhere. Although if I ever do find myself single again and jonesing for sex, I will most certainly procure the services of a pro long before I hit those depressing pick-up joints!

Just one more point, in NYC anyways, most of the $500 an hour girls are also $50 an hour girls, and also walk the track from time to time when they really need that extra push to make ends meet. The different strata of girls here is largely a smokescreen, I know many girls who work for some clients for $50, others for $100 and others for several hundred for the same services. Then you also have your absolute strung out trolls who have no choice but to walk the street for whatever they can scrounge from it.
Besides that, you have mostly girls in other professions who are probably best described as semi-pros, models/dancers/showgirls who will fuck for bucks as long as they can keep it on the low and not get the '*****' label attached to them. ALL of the above are going to be very reluctant to do anything more than the basic fuck n suck with a client, however. DFKing clients is especially rare here, anal is not rare but it is uncommon, and anything else is EXTREMELY rare aside from femdom, and even that is quite uncommon. Staying for more than a few hours is also just about unheard of here under ANY circumstance. Hell, most areas of NYC have NO mid to high level outcall available, because most outcall girls will only go to expensive Midtown hotels or to very rich neighborhoods!

Just as an example, if I were looking for a paid female sub either as an American making four times the minimum wage or as a Brazilian making four times the minimum salary, I'd DEFINITELY prefer to be in the Brazilian's shoes (even if they are Quixotes instead of Nikies :P)

[Macunaima]

...is now practicing every Friday night from about 7PM on in Praça Tiradentes, Imperatriz Leopoldina entrance.

(Y'know, I always thought it ironic that two of the biggest "zonas" in town are located on Queen Elizabeth St. and Empress Leopoldina St....)

[Macunaima]

I think most Brazilian women see guys who go to termas as scum whether they are gringos or Brazilians. Most Brazilian men don't see it as a problem, either way.

Politically, of course, you guys make a convenient scape-goat for a whole series of local demagogues, but probably more than half of these guys are going to termas themselves (and more than half the women are probably financially supported by their mate).

So the knee-jerk reaction is that this is a "gringo thing", but if you bring up the fact that Brazilian men do this too, most people will cheerfully admit that fact and then either claim that they are scum as well or shrug their dhoulders and say, "Yeah, but who cares? They're all consenting adults".

I have seen Amor Bandido, yes, and I think the 1970s is probably a good target date for this sort of thing. Big-time newspaper research needs to take place to run this thing to ground and I won't be able to do that until I finish my damned dissertation...

[Sunset Strip]

I actually meant to say, relationships between gringos and brazilian women versus pay-as-you-go between two Brazilians. I was typing fast because I was at work and did not have time to proof better.

What I was wondering was as a estrangero whether people see my relationships as somehow seedy, while Brailizian men who visit thermas are somehow less seedy. As you know sex clubs did not originate with tourists specifically in mind. As you stated it may be that the clubs in Brazil were orginally more of an escape fro normal Brazilian sexual life, just as watching porn is in the US (and I live in the heart of the US porn industry--CA). In the US, a VERY high percentage of Christians watch porn!

But of course Americans (North?) tend to think of other people as less than normal or sexually liberated or even deviant! So I was wondering if Brazilians in general think that gringos are perverts for paying for sex, but then when their own people go to thermas see things differently.
Likewise AMericans watch lots of porn (especially black and white) then think somewhat negatively of people who they think are sexually overactive.

And I hear that thermas did begin in the 1970s.

By the way, have you ever seen Amor Bandido? The movie is set around the Copacabana set scene in the 1970s (or early 80s). Lots of the scenes were shot inside Don Juans.

TJ

[Macunaima]

Termas represent Brazilian views on sexuality about as well as the American porn industry represents American views on sexuality. Now most of the guys posting here have been spending alot of time talking about how things are so "puritan" in the U.S. Nevertheless, the States produces most of the world's high-quality porn.

Pretty contradictory, huh? But that's the way it goes with culture: repression tends to generate a ghetto specializing in providing the opposite. The Nazis had some really blow out orgies, I hear...

So the termas are the "flip side" or "underground" of what's actually a pretty neurotic and repressive "normal" sexual culture. Gringos are impressed with Brazilian "sensuality" because our neuroses happen to be different from their neuroses. Gringos are incredibly body conscious and they tend to see people who aren't as "more liberated". But Brazilians are hung up on sex in any number of other, unliberating ways, which normally fall right off the gringo radar screen unless said gringo has been here awhile.

Sexual jealousy, possessiveness, questions of "protecting one's honor" and the madonna/***** complex are all typically deeply ingrained Brazilian sexual neuroses. What the termas are is sort of a male-orientated escape from the strictures of normal sexual/affective conduct. They are NOT considered to be the epitomy of normal sexual/affective conduct but the opposite of it.

Thus, using the way men and women behave in a termas as a "base-line" for understanding Brazilian sexuality is about as unproductive as using a stag party in 1970s Vegas as the baseline for a similar understanding of U.S. sexuality.

"Also, I was wondering if Brazilians in general differentiate between relationships between gringos and those pay-as-you-pay type relationships between Brazilians. (I can explain better what I mean, but I think you will get my point)."

Sorry, TJ, I really didn't get that. "Relationships between gringos...?" Brazilians don't really think much about what gringos do with each other in terms of sex and love, but I think you mean something else.

No one I've talked to knows when the termas started, BC, but the indications I get are the 1970s.

A bigger question, for me, is when and how the "zona" serving foreigners moved from Lapa to Copacabana. It was some time after WW2 and before the 1970s, but I don't know any more details than that. The birth of termas may possibly be caught up in this shift, somehow.

[Bango Cheito]

How long have the thermas been around anyways? I have a friend who availed himself of them back in 1983 and they were in full swing then!

If this is a window, I say lets get a sledgehammer and knock down as much as we can of the wall!!

[Sunset Strip]

Hey Mac,

Can you explain a little more why you do not think thermas reflect Brazilian views of sexuality?
And do you think those who would close thermas have more against those thermas catering to estrangeros or just thermas in general?

Also, I was wondering if Brazilians in general differentiate between relationships between gringos and those pay-as-you-pay type relationships between Brazilians. (I can explain better what I mean, but I think you will get my point).


TJ

[Macunaima]

There are PLENTY of people here who would close down the termas if they could, BC.

The existence of termas has more to do with a biref window of opportunity which we are currently passing through, historically speaking, in my view. I don't think they reflect on Brazil's cultural views regarding sexuality very well.