General Reports

[Tomasb]

Agreed.

When I travel to a foreign land outside of Western Europe, Oceania, or North America (excluding Mexico), I always check out the price of a haircut in a salon to get a gauge of what general personal services cost. In Thailand, I can get a really nice haircut, and other services with a hairstylist for 250-300 baht and that is in heavily trafficked tourist areas so sure it costs less elsewhere in Bangkok. Even cheap in and out haircut places in the US are over $20 now. So when I go, I get a few more haircuts than normal because it is so much cheaper. There is a place that I found off Suk near Paragon Mall where an older woman will sew your shirts etc. For a pittance — Like 50 baht or so to darn a shirt. That really tells you what most people live on even in the Capitol of the country.

But right next door to the hair salon is a BJ bar that charges considerably more than a standard haircut, not to mention what a FL might ask for in the same neighborhood.

True. Most foreigners are paying too much for the P4P labor component in poor countries though. When you do shit like get your motobike or computer fixed it is cheap as shit due to that cheap labor component. In the USA it costs like $100 per hour to work on my bike versus about $3 per hour in Thailand. Likewise in the USA it costs about $80 per hour to work on my computer versus about $5 in Thailand.

When it comes to buying electronics then you are going to pay the same prices as back home if your country is not one that charges exorbitant taxes on items as such. There is no labor to save money on with those items.

[Banana Boi]

Girls are 50 euro per half hour. It seems you took that as the price for one hour.

You are very correct. My mistake. Was just rushing through a post. Some 1 hour sessions in Thailand last 30 minutes too especially in Soi 6, G Clubs, FL, FS massage joints, etc.

I value the discussion to compare and will prefer Germany above Thailand for many reasons. Quality of the girls is at the top of my list.

Agree Germany has way hotter girls. Remember back in 2012 when it was predominantly Czech, Hungarian, Polish, German, Russian, etc. Some were true model quality. Germany went downhill with the Romanian invasion. Problem is I like to party outside the club and this is difficult in Germany with only my regular girls willing to go out to do things outside the club.

[DazeUp]

Mr Dazeup.

Not too long ago street girls were available to expats and street wise mongers for 500 baht.

Sorry if I read your comments out of context MC. Not all my comments were directed towards you by the way. Its a reoccurring theme I was speaking about. By the way that outdated report was about 4-5 years old I would say. Average prices I was paying back then for ST was 1500.

[Franciscass]

Mr dazeup / Francis.So my comments must be read in context of what Mr Francis said IE in summary a cheap Charlie is someone who tries to pay the lowest possible price and by way of doing this you are taking advantage of a girls circumstances (in the P4P context).

Please MC if you are going to quote me at least be accurate. This was my post.

"It's not pricing in different countries that determines a Cheap Charlie, its behavior where ever you are. If you qualify as consistently miserly, giving as little as possible, be a peel an orange in your pocket type you're most likely a cheap Charlie. For some that's just being smart while others find it an unattractive personality trait. For me the red line is not taking advantage of a girl's circumstance or to insist because 300 baht is the daily minimum wage they should be grateful when offered 500 baht for sex."

When I say not taking advantage of a girls circumstances what I mean is for example knowing she is flat broke and offering a derisory 300 Baht for her time arguing this is acceptable because the daily minimum wage is 300 Baht. If you or others think that's ok so be it, I don't.

[MutantChicken]

Mr Dazeup.

Not too long ago street girls were available to expats and street wise mongers for 500 baht.

Local thais would pay 300 baht for the same or similar girls.

Some tourists would pay 700 baht as that was the first unhaggled asked price.

Some non locals would pay 300 bht same as the local price.

You in your outdated report, payed 700 then tipped (an unasked for / unrequested) 500 baht. Many nations view payments as the total amount IE 1200, there is no differentiation between price and tip. There is plenty of evidence that proves tipping doesn't improve service, if anything it ensures decline of attitude and increased sense of entitlement.

There are guys who know about the "going rate" but decide to pay 3000 baht.

There are guys who don't know the going rate but also pay 3000 bht or some subjective figure they think is fair.

There are guys who walk around with their buddy trying to haggle 2 fucks for 500 bht in a 3 some, with 19/20 girls refusing and running away from them.

So my question is which scenario has the cheap charlie and why iIE which logical reasoning was this conclusion obtained rather than by some subjective value judgement. I'm sure you can guess my answer from my previous posts.

[MutantChicken]

Mr dazeup / Francis.

Firstly I would like to say THIS makes not a whit of difference, as things are what it is, but as there is some confusion as to my point I'll try to clear it up.

So my comments must be read in context of what Mr Francis said IE in summary a cheap Charlie is someone who tries to pay the lowest possible price and by way of doing this you are taking advantage of a girls circumstances (in the P4P context).

What I said was if that was the criteria of being a cheap charlie, the we all are guilty, because in Asia we are getting the lowest possible price for what we want and we value. You are American you can go to Singapore to get Thais ladies, prices there are lower than the USA but not as low as Thailand. Sure you can get lower prices if you go to XYZ for vagina, but then you are not getting the right type of girls the right type of experience you want. So hence going to Thailand you are getting the experience you want for the lowest possible price, not the lowest price free of parameters.

This also includes regular tourist who come for the massages, hotels etc etc. Why are the prices lower, that's because of the relative poverty, this poverty leads to lower labour costs hence lower total costs. If there wasn't this poverty then the bargirl you are fucking for whatever price you decide to pay, would have had free education and would be able to work a job which pays enough that she wouldn't need to sell pussy. Its a fact that in western countries (richer) countries the proportion of native citizens who are FL vs imports are lower, IE they don't need to barter / sell their pussy if they are citizens and can access government services.) That naturally leads to the point that sex tourists regardless of what they pay are taking advantage of a girls circumstances unless they paid the same they would have in their home countries. I talk about poverty in the general sense not individual poverty levels as there are Thai billionaires and broke ass janitors in the USA. A doctor working in the UK which is a richer country than Thailand generally earns more after currency exchange than his Thai equivalent. A doctor working in Saudi which is a richer country than the UK (GDP per cap) generally earns more than his UK equivalent. Thus unsubsidized healthcare in Saudi costs more than the UK which is more then Thai. Now I'm sure there are elements such as USA insurance cartels that affect my logic train, but you get the picture.

The next point about the "going rate" relates to the comment Francis made about how it wasn't being a cheap Charlie if people paid the "going rate" but if you were to pay based on a calculation such as saying for example min wage is 300 bht and so pay to her 500 is a cheap charlie action.

What I asked was how is the going rate determined, someone must have decided what to pay initially, and via this 'calculation" and via subsequent word of mouth and online postings etc, it became generally known as the going rate. So what I proposed was a hypothetical first falang scenario and how the 1500 figure "going rate" was arrived at, then I compared it to Francis own example of the min wage 300/500 rate.

What I'm asking is why the 1500 figure is morally acceptable, whereas the 500 figure is the cheap Charlie figure as both figures are calculated based on different but equally valid economic data points. This is further reinforced when in more cases than not the local Thai price is closer to the lower figure.

My comments were all hypothetical, and is examined based on relative perceptions of value judgements. Ex I'm a Saudi based monger I fly in girls pay them 10 k usd, you fly to Thailand pay girls 10 kbaht, I call you cheap charlie "need to fly your broke ass from saudi to fuck" , next guy down the cheap charlie Congo line pays 3 k baht, you call him cheap charlie for not being a baller, not able to pay a "fair price" which is slightly cheaper than wherever, the next guy pays 1000 bht which is the local tourist price, he also a cheap charlie, etc etc etc. So end of day who is the cheap charlie. YOU all are via one value judgement or another. Shouldn't the person best able to judge "cheap charlieness" is the bar girls who will avoid and refuse to service the cheap charlies, or businesses who have blanket bans against certain ethic groups. I pay 500 bht you call me a cheap charlie but yet I get continued service and girls leave happy and satisfied and you are the best person to determine who is a cheap charlie?

[Mr Enternational]

The logic is this, things like healthcare, massages, accommodation etc ALL have a labor component in its pricing, similarly like P4P you are paying for her labour / physicality. If these countries weren't poor then these services like healthcare, massages, accommodation wouldn't be cheaper than the USA.

True. Most foreigners are paying too much for the P4P labor component in poor countries though. When you do shit like get your motobike or computer fixed it is cheap as shit due to that cheap labor component. In the USA it costs like $100 per hour to work on my bike versus about $3 per hour in Thailand. Likewise in the USA it costs about $80 per hour to work on my computer versus about $5 in Thailand.

When it comes to buying electronics then you are going to pay the same prices as back home if your country is not one that charges exorbitant taxes on items as such. There is no labor to save money on with those items.

[DazeUp]

What is the going rate?

Imagine I was the first falang in Thailand, and I go up to a lady she say "I go with you?" I say how much and she says "up to you", we go boom boom and after the deed I think wow back in USA / CAN / AUST, that would cost me 200, so ill gvie her 50 to be fair IE 1500 bht. Now I tell buddy A, he tells be, tells see etc etc, we won't even think about guy xyz who wants to be a big shot and tips another 500 b, but generally 1500 b becomes the "going rate."

Now Francis, goes to another part of Thai, and same thing happens and after the boom boom when trying to figure out how much to pay her, he thinks 7/11 chick gets paid 300 nht a whole day, I spent 1 HR with her, we both had a good time, so ill give her 500 bht, she happily accepts and leaves.

Later he meets a few guys who happened to be the same guys who follow the going rate of 1500. After recounting his story, he gets called a cheap charlie, how he is taking advantage of her circumstances etc etc.

This may make logical sense to some I suppose, how the first guy was a saint and yet Francis was a scoundrel? To me I don't see the logic, as the price paid was determined by different parameters, but ending with both ladies happy, so why was the second guy a cheap charlie, if anything guy no 1 should be the cheap charlie as he decided to pay 1/4 of what should have costed him more at home. Whereas Francis paid 2 x what the girl could have earnt with similar labor expenditure.

Again I have to disagree here, this would only make sense if we were indeed the first people going to LOS, but this is what these forums were set up for and why BMs are writing up thousands of reports: to stop new comers from making these easily avoidable mistakes by reading and acting on the intel. They report on the service and price. But like Franciscass said, we read the info, use it to overpay anyway because its a lot less than 'back home' then call others cheap charlies for haggling for the right price, which is a lot lower than 'back home'. The only reason why there is a haggle in the first place is because of the amount of mongers paying close to home prices.

If I took my car to get an oil change and asked the technician how much? And he tells me 'up to you'. I will immediately understand that he has marked me as a person who does not know the price and can be scammed into paying above the market price if left to my own devices. If I then start comparing what I pay to prices of an oil change in one of the richest countries in the world then he did the right thing for marking me and it paid off (for him).

If these girls didn't mark us for 'possible targets that don't know the price and are highly likely to pay more' they would have immediately given us the price to make sure we don't get any ideas that it will be any less. Like if someone from another unnamed background asked how much for example, they would never say 'up to you'. Not if he was the last monger on Earth (LOL).

In the case of the oil technician, I wouldn't let him go ahead and do the oil change then try to figure out how much to pay him after he's finished. I'd tell him either give me the price for an oil change or I'll just go to someone else whose not looking to scam me. But like I said, this is easily avoidable by reading the intel from the BMs who know what the going rate is and are telling me not to overpay, and telling me to tell the girls how much I am willing to pay first so there is no further misunderstanding down the line. After the oil change is complete and I'm happy with the service for the price point, tipping is 'up to me' and I'll happily tip according to the service after paying the standard going rate.

[DazeUp]

The logic is this, things like healthcare, massages, accommodation etc ALL have a labor component in its pricing, similarly like P4P you are paying for her labour / physicality. If these countries weren't poor then these services like healthcare, massages, accommodation wouldn't be cheaper than the USA. Tell me of a first world nation where these services are substantially cheaper than the USA, and is available at that low price for non citizens / tourists. So what I'm saying is a countries poverty is the reason why labor costs are so low, hence things like healthcare, massages, accommodation are low priced, likewise this explains why P4P is cheaper.

Hence you coming to Thailand, to "pay a low price as possible", then you are taking advantage of her circumstances. Because if the country wasn't poor she could have had free education, her circumstances prevented her from getting a well paid job that didn't involve selling her vagina. I'm not taking a moral position as to me that's just economics, and its debatable how better or worse her life would be without falang dick. But by your own definition of a cheap Charlie, anyone going to a poor country to use any of its services, healthcare, massages, accommodation and definitely p4 p could be said to be cheap charlies.

Sorry MT, I have to disagree with you.

If these countries weren't poor then these services like healthcare, massages, accommodation wouldn't be cheaper than the USA

This is where the logic gets flawed, you are making the US. One of the richest countries in the world, as the standard for what is poor and what is rich. That's like someone from the poorest country in the world saying:

"If those countries weren't rich, services like healthcare et wouldn't be more expensive than my country. " The starting point is flawed. His or your country are not the basis or the standard to determine rich or poor, especially if they are on either end of the scale.

The way to determine what makes poor and rich is different for every country and is determined by the specific countries poverty line which MR. E linked earlier, which got this whole debate started (so blame him). There is no space for this but you can refer to that post to see what makes someone rich or poor in Thailand or whichever country you choose to travel to and monger in. Comparing countries poverty level to the states is like someone from one of those ridiculously oil rich countries saying other countries are poor because things cost less in those countries and therefore he would be taking advantage for paying local prices when he travels (they easily pay up to 1-2 kusd in those countries, what would your chances of getting good service from an 8 be, if people from those countries regularly traveled in large numbers to monger with that logic? Also the reverse doesn't work, a person from a poor country cannot go to the US and say I'm not paying this much because this country is richer than mine, I should get to pay less or I'm being taken advantage of. You pay the local price wherever you go (plus tourist tax of course, which is understandable).

The other point where the logic is flawed is when it comes to cheap charlies paying "a low as price as possible". That's never been the case as far as I've been reading this forum. No monger here is looking to pay 500-700 baht or whatever the "lowest price" or even the local Thai price that is going around is. They are being called cheap charlies for not wanting to pay more than the fair local "tourist" price for mongering, the ones who are criticizing them are saying you shouldn't be cheap and haggle for that you should happily pay something a little less than what you pay 'back home'.

Incidentally (outdated report, but to keep things relative to the forum's objectives), There was one night in Bkk when I was on my way to my hotel pretty late, about 2 am on soi 4. I decided to just sit on the pavement for a few minutes, a short ways before or after the first 7/11, and finish a drink I had in my hands before going into the hotel and calling it a night. I wasn't planning on any action that night as I wanted to save energy for the next night. I was a newbie by the way, in Disneyland. A girl walked past me whom I thought was cute and I said Hi. She stopped and said Hi. I asked her how much for ST, just to see the price for info not to partake. She said 700 baht. I immediately got up and said o. She took me by the hand all the way to the hotel, and was very friendly. She also provided very good service. I gave her exactly what she asked for; 700, then I said and here is your tip, I gave her an extra 500 (which is a big tip when compared to the asking price, almost fold). I didn't say to myself I would be paying 5 k baht for this in the US so let me not take advantage and give her 4 k. She looked at the tip and then hugged and kissed me. She asked me to go to a club with her, but I told her that was not my thing. She was very happy with the 1. 2 k because it is more than what she was expecting and a few more of those and she would be above the poverty line in her local context.

The next day she was messaging me for a repeat, I didn't want to partake again because at that time I was on an every other day idiot program (again I was a newbie). At about 1 am there was a knock on my door. Guess who it was. She wouldn't be doing that if I was being cheap, she's doing that because its a good deal in her context. She was a street walker by the way, not a bar girl.

[Member #4733]

I'm basing this off of 4 girls per day based on non-expat rates.

Hotels in Germany and Thailand are comparable in price. In Germany you usually rent a car but you don't have to and public transportation is quite good. Food and beer are free in Germany FKK clubs and you have to pay in Thailand.

A day in Germany.

NRW FKK entry 2200 baht (1 club).
Girl is 1825 baht per hour x 4.
Food free.
Beer free.
Hotel 2000 baht.
Car 1500 baht.

Total 13 k baht.

Girls are 50 euro per half hour. It seems you took that as the price for one hour. And if you insist on 50 euros per hour you are in a club that I don't want to go to. Beware. Beer is not free in all Sauna Clubs. Even in Bangkok a hotel asking 2000 baht per night cannot be compared to a hotel in Germany asking the same. In Cologne one day sets me back 50 euro to 80 euro at least. Problem is that in the smaller towns hotel prices often are even higher than the big cities. Just go to Booking.com and check. I had a hotel in Pattaya for 25 euro per night and I will never get that quality in Germany below 200 euro and even then I have to search the net for days. I value the discussion to compare and will prefer Germany above Thailand for many reasons. Quality of the girls is at the top of my list.

[Franciscass]

The logic is this, things like healthcare, massages, accommodation etc ALL have a labor component in its pricing, similarly like P4P you are paying for her labour / physicality. If these countries weren't poor then these services like healthcare, massages, accommodation wouldn't be cheaper than the USA. Tell me of a first world nation where these services are substantially cheaper than the USA, and is available at that low price for non citizens / tourists. So what I'm saying is a countries poverty is the reason why labor costs are so low, hence things like healthcare, massages, accommodation are low priced, likewise this explains why P4P is cheaper.

Hence you coming to Thailand, to "pay a low price as possible", then you are taking advantage of her circumstances. Because if the country wasn't poor she could have had free education, her circumstances prevented her from getting a well paid job that didn't involve selling her vagina. I'm not taking a moral position as to me that's just economics, and its debatable how better or worse her life would be without falang dick. But by your own definition of a cheap Charlie, anyone going to a poor country to use any of its services, healthcare, massages, accommodation and definitely p4 p could be said to be cheap charlies.

Please forgive me MC, I've tried to understand, to make some sense of what you are saying, I really have but I give in. Perhaps the subtleties of what causes variations in P4P pricing in different countries and how these relate to being a Cheap Charlie taking advantage of impoverished girls is just beyond me.

[Banana Boi]

I'm basing this off of 4 girls per day based on non-expat rates.

Hotels in Germany and Thailand are comparable in price. In Germany you usually rent a car but you don't have to and public transportation is quite good. Food and beer are free in Germany FKK clubs and you have to pay in Thailand.

A day in Germany.

NRW FKK entry 2200 baht (1 club).
Girl is 1825 baht per hour x 4.
Food free.
Beer free.
Hotel 2000 baht.
Car 1500 baht.

Total 13 k baht.

A day in Thailand.

2 girls Soi 6 for 1 hour - 1350 baht x 2.
1 gogo girl for 1 hour - 4500 baht.
IBar girl - 2000 baht.
Food - 200 baht.
Beer and lady drinks at Soi 6 bars and gogo bars - 1500 baht+++.
Hotel 2000 baht.
Taxis 100 baht.

Total 13 k baht.

Prices do not include tipping and extras for BBFS in Germany. Surprisingly both are the same price based on 4 girls per day. Where Thailand is ahead is that you can keep any of these girls overnight for a nominal surcharge whereas that is not an option in Germany for non regulars.

[Banana Boi]

I have lots of gogo and Soi 6 girls call me cheap in Thai when I refuse to buy them lady drinks. I'm sure it happens to you guys often too you just don't understand what they are saying when they walk away. I used to be an expat weekend millionaire but I consider myself to be a Cheap Charlie now.

I had a regular Sapphire gogo girl who I used to buy drinks for in 2015 tell me I'm not the same now. When I asked her to clarify she said because I don't buy her and her friends lady drinks any longer. I told her I'm the same and buy lots of drinks. The issue was that she looks 5 years older now than when I used to buy her 10+ drinks per night. She got angry and no longer talks to me.

[MutantChicken]

Sorry MC don't follow your train of thought. Lots of services are cheaper here than in USA Aust or Canada, regular massages, healthcare, and accommodation just to mention a few. P4P is also cheaper but this doesn't mean you are taking advantage of a girls poverty or her circumstances when you pay the going rate for her time.

What is the going rate?

Imagine I was the first falang in Thailand, and I go up to a lady she say "I go with you?" I say how much and she says "up to you", we go boom boom and after the deed I think wow back in USA / CAN / AUST, that would cost me 200, so ill gvie her 50 to be fair IE 1500 bht. Now I tell buddy A, he tells be, tells see etc etc, we won't even think about guy xyz who wants to be a big shot and tips another 500 b, but generally 1500 b becomes the "going rate."

Now Francis, goes to another part of Thai, and same thing happens and after the boom boom when trying to figure out how much to pay her, he thinks 7/11 chick gets paid 300 nht a whole day, I spent 1 HR with her, we both had a good time, so ill give her 500 bht, she happily accepts and leaves.

Later he meets a few guys who happened to be the same guys who follow the going rate of 1500. After recounting his story, he gets called a cheap charlie, how he is taking advantage of her circumstances etc etc.

This may make logical sense to some I suppose, how the first guy was a saint and yet Francis was a scoundrel? To me I don't see the logic, as the price paid was determined by different parameters, but ending with both ladies happy, so why was the second guy a cheap charlie, if anything guy no 1 should be the cheap charlie as he decided to pay 1/4 of what should have costed him more at home. Whereas Francis paid 2 x what the girl could have earnt with similar labor expenditure.

[MutantChicken]

Sorry MC don't follow your train of thought. Lots of services are cheaper here than in USA Aust or Canada, regular massages, healthcare, and accommodation just to mention a few. P4P is also cheaper but this doesn't mean you are taking advantage of a girls poverty or her circumstances when you pay the going rate for her time.

The logic is this, things like healthcare, massages, accommodation etc ALL have a labor component in its pricing, similarly like P4P you are paying for her labour / physicality. If these countries weren't poor then these services like healthcare, massages, accommodation wouldn't be cheaper than the USA. Tell me of a first world nation where these services are substantially cheaper than the USA, and is available at that low price for non citizens / tourists. So what I'm saying is a countries poverty is the reason why labor costs are so low, hence things like healthcare, massages, accommodation are low priced, likewise this explains why P4P is cheaper.

Hence you coming to Thailand, to "pay a low price as possible", then you are taking advantage of her circumstances. Because if the country wasn't poor she could have had free education, her circumstances prevented her from getting a well paid job that didn't involve selling her vagina. I'm not taking a moral position as to me that's just economics, and its debatable how better or worse her life would be without falang dick. But by your own definition of a cheap Charlie, anyone going to a poor country to use any of its services, healthcare, massages, accommodation and definitely p4 p could be said to be cheap charlies.