General Reports

[Raverboy]

No, I am not French, many languages have tonic accents. BTW, the right from would been: "Etes vous francais, and'est pas?". In this case we notice how "nes't pas?" works like the interrogative form of "mai" in Thai, out at the end of a sentence.

Thanks for suggesting to listen to selected sources, but you know what, the King doesn't talk to us at will and about every matter. Moreover, we can't talk to him, beside that wold require a different form of Thai, even superior to the one that is "taught" by the Rosetta Stone system.

My point exactly. My example using a colloquial 'street' version of French may not be the perfectly correct form, but you understood it just as well.

To me, languages that comes without verb tenses, no fixed grammar rules, articles, noun quality modifiers, of which the script is unnecessarily convoluted, and phone set lacks some basic sounds that the vast majority of other humans have, _are_ inferior to the ones having 4, 000 years of refinement from the lineage on Sanskrit, Greek, and Latin. I feel privileged to natively speak a language that I can use in level of a sophistication unknown to other. English readers do not takes this badly, of course great poetry and literature can be had in English, but must base on a different foundation...

Right. 'Inferior' perhaps. 'Infinitely inferior' perhaps a bit harsh.

[New Old Guy]

Vous êtes Francais, vous? .

Few Thais (Issan, Lanna, Thai-Thais or otherwise) in a casual conversational setting speak with the proper intonations. However, in practical terms, the spoken context will allow the speaker to be understood. I would surmise that if you want to hear proper textbook Thai being spoken, have a listen the next time someone addresses the King on television.

Your saying that the Thai language is "infinitely inferior In effectiveness to any indo-european language" is an unfair assessment of the language.

Just my opinion.

No, I am not French, many languages have tonic accents. BTW, the right form would been: "Etes vous francais, n'est pas?". In this case we notice how "nes't pas?" works like the interrogative form of "mai" in Thai, placed at the end of a sentence.

Thanks for suggesting to listen to selected sources, but you know what, the King doesn't talk to us at will and about every matter. Moreover, we can't talk to him, beside that wold require a different form of Thai, even superior to the one that is "taught" by the Rosetta Stone system.

Regarding your comment about the "effectiveness" of the language. I think your opinion is largely influenced by the forced approach to impartiality and political correctness by which Westerns are largely affected since too many years. Because our ancestors committed too many atrocities in the name of civilization, colonization, or religion, now we refuse to give credit even where is due to the superiority of our culture in many branches of knowledge, ethic or human sciences.

To me, languages that comes without verb tenses, no fixed grammar rules, articles, noun quality modifiers, of which the script is unnecessarily convoluted or bloated beyond reason, and phoneme set lacks some basic sounds that the vast majority of other humans have, _are_ inferior to the ones having 4, 000 years of refinement from the lineage on Sanskrit, Greek, and Latin. I feel privileged to natively speak and communicate in languages that (if necessary) I can use in level of a sophistication impossible with others. English readers do not take this badly, of course great communication, technical and scientific work, poetry and literature can be had in English, but must base on a different foundation. If you studied an European language, you surely know what I mean.

I was taught that the generally recognized talent for engineering and learning languages that the Germans have, is also due to the highly refined structure of their language, so that to cause a mental fortification process in childs, going together with learning their tongue.

I may used the wrong word however, certainly that Thai can be very effective, for example to sell fish at the river marke

[Raverboy]

...By the way, in my native European language we have something similar to intonations, we call them tonic accents. So two words can be written the same (expect for the accent) , but pronounced differently...

Vous êtes Francais, vous?

Few Thais (Issan, Lanna, Thai-Thais or otherwise) in a casual conversational setting speak with the proper intonations. However, in practical terms, the spoken context will allow the speaker to be understood. I would surmise that if you want to hear proper textbook Thai being spoken, have a listen the next time someone addresses the King on television.

Your saying that the Thai language is "infinitely inferior in effectiveness to any indo-european language" is an unfair assessment of the language.

Just my opinion.

[LittleBigMan]

NOG,

For some it is easy for other it is hard? I have been told by translator that the Thai language is one of the hardest? For me like you it is very frustrating, I got to speak English, Chinese and now Thai sometimes I speak to my Mom in Thai and she says WTF are you talking about? It's even harder for someone like me that has a hearing problem. Can't hear all the tones? But remember everyone you don't need to learn Thai to get pussy here!

LBM

[Daddy07]

...Now for the learning methods. Pimsleur is frankly ridiculous. I had great hopes until I discovered that after the first lesson, they introduce only 2 or so new words in each following one. At the 5th lesson they are still saying each other which country they're from and if they speak Thai or not? WTF...

Excellent, informative, and entertaining report, NOG, and I'm sad to say you are right on all counts.

I've given up on the prospect of ever learning to speak and read Thai beyond pidgeon mode. You know, like gin hoy mai? I immersed myself in Rosetta Stone Thai before moving to Thailand only to discover that it teaches a very formal version of the language used by diplomats and those who might speak to the king. Needless to say, the Pattaya barbeer girls don't come close to understanding it, not to mention the average Thai.

I just don't give a shit anymore; love living here but have no desire to mix with the natives beyond mongering.

[New Old Guy]

I'm going through the same ordeal of learning at least some Thai.

It is an incredibly hard task. I think that never in my life I have approached anything so difficult. Whoever tells you otherwise is lying.

My recommendation, if you are not prepared for an endless series of frustrations and likely ultimate failure, don't start it. The obstacles are deeply embedded in the nature of the language (that just to be clear from the beginning, is infinitely inferior in effectiveness to any indo-european language). And the way that is actually spoken.

In no particular order:

The five basic vowel tones. Anybody can understand and discern what a low or falling tone is. Problem is that is in reality, Thais mark the intonation with the less possible intensity, of course they will be understand anyway. I have recorded my Isaan squeeze uttering the five tones of the "maa" word, then had her listen to it. She had to admit that they mostly sounded the same. She blamed the fact she is Isaan. Now guess who do we most often spend time with?

Again on the Isaan people or girls, as somebody has pointed out, they are the worst teachers ever. Thai teacher are bad enough, Isaan people are totally useless. Even when talking to you, they will throw in Isaan sentences or words all the time (It makes a better conversation to their ears), and fail to tell you what is what. They would speak Isaan to each other, and you will not be able to practice word recognition, let alone understanding. That is one reason why they are looked down by other Thai. As soon they open mouth they reveal their origin, and never try to speak properly. Of course the opposite is also true, Isaan also are suspicious of Thai, and not interested in learning proper Thai ever. They only know enough to get away with the elementary school and that's it.

Back on the tones and you. When talking, if you accentuate the intonation, not only it will sound awkward but you will distort the pitch so much that you will not be understood - unless you're a professional signer perhaps. So, you will try to speak softly like them, just to meet yet another failure. There is a fine line that only a native speaker can master, unless you have it as natural talent, just give up with some words and intonations, as you will always sound ridiculous like when they say "call polip" or "Bruy beer". Thanks Buddha there is many useful words with plain tonality, you will want to use these most of the time.

Just to give you an idea, on the TV soap some days ago, a Western woman character was introduced. She was an upper-class, long-time resident of Thailand, to my ears her Thai had no western accent whatsoever and sounded exactly like the TV news. Well, they put captioning on screen when she was speaking! They have very little mental flexibility to understand others that do not speak they way they do, and are very quickl label one as "not very clear", at which point they pretty much give up trying, and ask you to use English instead. Call this motivating!

By the way, in my native European language we have something similar to intonations, we call them tonic accents. So two words can be written the same (expect for the accent), but pronounced differently. Just to be clear, being able to use these, will not help. Also let's say you speak some Spanish and are able to imitate the different way it's spoken for example, in Spain, Mexico, Colombia, and Argentina. That ability will not help a single bit. Spanish is a melodic, fully uttered language possessing a lovely cadence in each geographical variation. Thai is a sequence of short groans, moans.

Now for their "wonderfully simple" vocabulary. Most common words are extremely short, in practice monosyllabic. Now, I do not have scientific evidence to support my opinion, but I think that makes them even more difficult to remember, as there is no interesting sounds to grab to, for a mnemonic approach. But, I remember easily many Arabic or even Japanese words, that are nicely built on two or three contrasting, fully uttered syllables.

Now for the learning methods. Pimsleur is frankly ridiculous. I had great hopes until I discovered that after the first lesson, they introduce only 2 or so new words in each following one. At the 5th lesson they are still very politely asking each other which country they're from and if they speak Thai or not? WTF.

I know a guy that incensed Pimsleur, he also took many classes on his ED Visa, he boasts to be able to imitate the Thai intonation. We used to go out, I would hear him starting a conversation the right way, at that point invariably the Thai person replied something outside his knowledge that he could not respond to, and was soon relegated to the big smiles and gesturing. Also he received pretty much the same amount of "What?" as I do. He would avoid telephone conversation and had to use the smartphone translator all the time.

So we have the method with no writing, and the ones with writing that in theory should help you memorizing the sounds of each letter, words and phrases ultimately. True until you give a close look to the Thai script, with its inane amount of consonants, absurd vowel positioning rules, and the self-similar glyphs. It takes months if not years of effort to discern letters apart, associate a (variable) sound to them, then forming words. Forming is the appropriate term, as they use no spaces (not asking for dots, that would be too much). So it's up to you to figure it out. No wonder I see how Isaan or even Thai people to take 30 or 50 seconds to read one single line sentence on a public sign.

Simply put, the written form was not designed to be universally used, it had instead a religious, political and legal use. Then when they moved into modernity, instead of doing like the Viets done (under French guidance) by adapting the Latin script, they stuck to it, with the great results we're talking about here. If you really want to get close to it.be warned, it will simply bring even more frustration so if you can memorize, just avoid it.

Summarizing. I have the "Thai for beginners" book mentioned below, and will go slowly and painfully through it. I know already that starting each new lesson I have forgotten 80% of the previous one, but something is already better than nothing. I take it more as exercise in perseverance than else. Fortunately there are great dictionaries on the internet with recorded words. After two months here, I start recognizing some words, but only the easy ones with a distinct , almost Western sound. All there rest is, and I'm afraid will remain, a blurred, self-repetitive sequence of moans and groans. Exactly like some of the best moments in sex.

[LittleBigMan]

Hi guys,

I have't been posting for some time, even though I made my usual yearly trip to SEA in February / March.

The reason is, that there is little I want to report on.

Partly due to a lack of notable events, but mainly, because I have gotten myself into a "stable relationship", which, to me, is emotionally much more satisfying than screwing around like I used to do in the past, but at the same time unsuitable for reporting the many many very juicy but very intimate details.

To make the long story short, I have grown extremely fond of a Thai lady of 42, some 5 yrs younger than my daughter and hot as hell (both of them). I mention this, because it is only my obviously advanced age, that has prevented me from becoming totally infatuated with my MILF.

I know all about the "sick buffallo","sich grandmother" and other scams, which many TGFs pull on the Western boyfriends.

I have made this very clear to my TGF from the start, that, while being very generous when we are together, I will never, ever send her money when we are apart.

So far, at least, it has worked and I am very much looking forward to being with her again next year.

We have, however, one serious problem:

She speaks just about zero English and I speak even less Thai. Which makes communicating even the simplest things very tedious. At my age, spending all day in bed with my lady is no longer an option and even then, I like to tell her how good she is and how much she pleases me.

I am fluent in 4 European languages and can get along quite well in at least 5 more, so learning a new language was never a problem for me, but with Thai, I don't even know where to start!

So here is my question: How did you learn Thai? Or What is a practicable way to learn Thai?

D. S.

There are many reasons to learn Thai, if you visit offen or not! Some learn to use it as a pick up line in bars etc. Some learn enough so that they can get around and order the food, some need to learn it like you. Whatever you do or go you need to decide first if it is best to take private one on one or in group. I myself like the group but sometimes depending on the group all they want to learn are words and lines to pick up girls and there are students that might be more advance than you. You seem to be a learner type already fluent in 4 European languages.

In your situation IMHO, I can safely say that since she speaks very little English that she has no idea what you have told her about your situation. Aside from the language you need to learn more about the culture at the same time to avoid saying something you didn't mean or more on her part take something out of context. If you are a talker and go on and go many times a Thai will just say they understand just so that you would shut up and they would do it with a smile.

Many will view this suggestion as B. S. But one of the best books I have read here that I have learned a lot is the book title " Thailand Fever " this book is written in English and translated to Thai so that she can also read what you are reading. I have made this suggestion to many of my friends and many of them come away saying they understand but go ahead and do everything they shouldn't like they haven't even read it. I would nearly demand she read it so first she understand you and where you come from and give her a idea as to why you are the way you are? As it suggest in the book along with what Member 2041 said " if she refuse to read it that is a good sign as to where your relationship is heading!

Aside from the language you are dealing with much more, culture, loosing face, never speak openly to your friends or hers regarding personal matters it will come back to bit you in the ass. Aside from her never trust your opinion regarding a situation with another Thai, thinking it would never get back to her! They will backstab you and not know they are doing it. A word like realise or my can be contrue as something bad so yes it is a great idea to learn the language. Depending on wear you are I suggest you locate a Church that offer language classes for the both of you that way if you need private translation to get something across it is available. I suggest this because if they respect the place and individuals that presents the information they don't loose face.

Good luck, LBM

[Mr Enternational]

So, I guess that "Teach yourself Thai on CD" like Pimsleur or similar, is the only way. I guess I knew that all along.

I would appreciate any advice which course to choose and your personal experience with it.

I learn better when I can see the words as well as listen. So I use this set in addition to the Pimsleur.

English http://www.bangkokbooks.com/php/prod...duct_id=000028

German http://www.bangkokbooks.com/php/prod...duct_id=000031

[Rocky Power]

Total immersionis is great if you are staying with educated people,

But most of the Issan girls did not go to school after 16 years old or so, and then Thai was not what they spoke at home,

You really need to be taught by educated Thais who also know some English so if you have a question of why something is said a certain way you can get an answer you understand,

Is Pimsleur Thai anywhere on the web to try it out for free and see if you like it? I did not really like Rosetta stone.

Thanks.

BK

There is. Ill send you a link

[BKK Dreaming]

Total immersionis is great if you are staying with educated people,

But most of the Issan girls did not go to school after 16 years old or so, and then Thai was not what they spoke at home,

You really need to be taught by educated Thais who also know some English so if you have a question of why something is said a certain way you can get an answer you understand,

Is Pimsleur Thai anywhere on the web to try it out for free and see if you like it? I did not really like Rosetta stone.

Thanks.

BK

[Daddy San]

Thanks for your manifold suggestions.

The best and quickest way to learn a language certainly is by total immersion.

I have gone through that exercise twice myself. Then, many years ago, it took me all of 3-4 months to become proficient in each language.

The nicest way I learned a language (French in this case) was by total immersion in my French girlfriend. The result was not as good, because half the time we were too busy to converse, but boy, was is nice!

I tried this approach with my TGF, but it just won't work.

She is very smart and not only understands some English, but seems to anticipate when I say something like "I want to eat your pussy" even before I say it, and from then on I can only mumble.

She, on her part, is often similarly "handicapped".

Spending more time with her on a joint project (in LOS or Germany, where I currently live) as someone suggested, would be great fun, but there is a problem: My wife might object.

On a mote serious note, while giving lots of valuable advice, none of you actually answered the first part of my question : How did you learn Thai?

Taking Thai classes is not an option, because there are no Thai classes where I live.

So, I guess that "Teach yourself Thai on CD" like Pimsleur or similar, is the only way. I guess I knew that all along.

I would appreciate any advice which course to choose and your personal experience with it.

Thanks a bunch.

DS

[Crazy4Thai]

Can I suggest something else? If you are serious about this, you should make it a mutual project. That while YOU are learning Thai, you should offer to put her through a course in English at the same time. If she cares enough about you to take the course and put her work in, while you are footing the bill, you probably have a reasonable basis for making the sort of full-on commitment that this involves. If, however, she DOESN'T want to learn English even on your dime, to be with you. Then that should raise as many red flags as it needs to in order to keep you from making a major life-commitment towards someone who doesn't feel anywhere near the same way about you. Not to mention the fact that interacting intensively with someone else who's fluent in the language that each of you is trying to learn should actually make it easier for both of you to actually learn each other's language.

I think that this is very good advice.

I am 7 years into a relationship where her English is passable but I assure you this is not enough. We have numerous problems based on miscommunication.

[BKK Dreaming]

London-Bangkok 352 UKP return.

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/uk/e....html?cid=1480

Hope someone can use it.

BK

[Edward M]

So here is my question: How did you learn Thai? Or What is a practicable way to learn Thai?

Pimsleur is your friend. I listened to Pimsleur for 40 days before my trip to Thailand and it helped me a lot. There is only 1 level (15 cds) but it introduced me to a lot of vocabulary and grammar. I couldn't really converse in Thai but when people did not understand my English I could throw out some Thai to clarify and was able to understand a little of what I heard. I think the most effective method is to go through the cds with one lesson (half a cd) per day listening to it 3 or 4 times in that day so about 2 hours commitment per day and also the first time through do not skip a day or double-up and it should stick well in your brain. After the first time through you can go through them again doing 3 lessons per day and finish it for a review in about 10 days so 40 day commitment to go through it twice.

Contrary to popular belief Thai is not that hard a language to learn. The tones can be tough but remember English is a tonal language too but to a much less extent. There are no verb conjugations so all you will really need to learn is vocabulary.

It is too bad that there are not more levels.

[Chill Out]

If you can speak several languages already, it shouldn't take too long to pick up. I agree that going for immersion is always the best way, no matter the language. Which means you have to spend more time in the LOS. A tough realization, I'm sure.