General Reports

[Jungle Bluebird]

Not sure how you can compare Thais to Japanese. During a recent Tokyo visit I did not see phone wires hanging in the trees :-)

JB

You could substitute "Japanese" for "Thai" above and still be pretty close to the mark. The cultural similarities are astonishing, and what is especially astonishing to me is the radical difference in outcome. The Thais really are like the Japanese- like lazy Japanese on Prozac (thankfully the Thais don't show so much interest in killing themselves). A bit overly broad, I know, but I wonder what accounts for the most salient differences- I. E. , work ethic and competitiveness- against a fairly similar cultural background (including the strikingly similar synthesis of Buddhism and animism found in both cultures). Could it be the difference in environments? Thailand being quite fertile and forgiving in comparison to the perpetually hostile environment of the Japanese archipelago (earthquakes, volcanoes, typhoons, snowstorms, etc.); it is easy to be lazy in a place where if you drop a seed you get a plant, throw a net get a fish, eat mangoes in the mango season and durian in the durian season, etc. (Of course, back when much of Thailand was covered in jungle it probably wasn't all that gentle a place to live.) Or is that Thailand never experienced an overarching military dictatorship like that of the Tokugawa shogunate, ruling Japan with an iron fist for 200 years, dominating all aspects of politics and economy while ruthlessly suppressing any dissent?

Just thinking out loud here, enjoying the conversation and wanted to try to contribute something.

[Sanook D]

... a lack of individual initiative tempered by the fear of doing something wrong and being singled out and punished. It's better to fuck up as a group than take the heat for something, individually. Thais can't think for themselves even in a group. It's all about pleasing somebody above, never stepping out of line, doing what you're told and certainly never challenging something or someone, even if competely assinine. This begins in the Thai education system . . .

You could substitute "Japanese" for "Thai" above and still be pretty close to the mark. The cultural similarities are astonishing, and what is especially astonishing to me is the radical difference in outcome. The Thais really are like the Japanese- like lazy Japanese on Prozac (thankfully the Thais don't show so much interest in killing themselves). A bit overly broad, I know, but I wonder what accounts for the most salient differences- I. E. , work ethic and competitiveness- against a fairly similar cultural background (including the strikingly similar synthesis of Buddhism and animism found in both cultures). Could it be the difference in environments? Thailand being quite fertile and forgiving in comparison to the perpetually hostile environment of the Japanese archipelago (earthquakes, volcanoes, typhoons, snowstorms, etc.); it is easy to be lazy in a place where if you drop a seed you get a plant, throw a net get a fish, eat mangoes in the mango season and durian in the durian season, etc. (Of course, back when much of Thailand was covered in jungle it probably wasn't all that gentle a place to live.) Or is that Thailand never experienced an overarching military dictatorship like that of the Tokugawa shogunate, ruling Japan with an iron fist for 200 years, dominating all aspects of politics and economy while ruthlessly suppressing any dissent?

Just thinking out loud here, enjoying the conversation and wanted to try to contribute something.

[Terry Terrier]

Yep, especially in areas where it is difficult to find good people (Not Bkk, Chiang Mai adn the other big cities)

I agree. But if you assume the best employer is the one that pays the highest Salary, then we may agree to disagree (is that English? LOL)

I am not suggesting anything, you read too much into what I wrote. Just a question, have you worked in Thailand before? have you ever been in a position where you had to hire a Thai? how many people do you have to manage on a daily basis?

I manage over 50 people on a daily basis and they are all loyal to our company. We pay them the normal Market Salaries for their position, but then they get Bonuses, we treat them well,they have a nice adn friendly working environment, get "Leave of absence" when needed, we invite them for treats (lunches, dinners) on a weekly basis, we have monthly outings (Bowling, Pool, PaintBall, Movies), we help them when they have kids, we have Birthday parties, we help them when they have Family problems, etc...

This is how you can build loyalty and trust with the Thais. I am not saying we are perfect, far from it, but of all the employees who have left us for better paid jobs, a lot asked if they could come back.

My mate (who is with a Big Corporation) pays his staff really well, but then if they don't produce or perform to satisfaction, they get the boot.

Third world country Salaries? compared to what?

Nic, thanks for your informative reply. Your company clearly operates good management of employees using similar techniques to companies in Western Europe. But I'm still baffled by your original comment about wages and poaching of employees.

[Jungle Bluebird]

OTH

Yes, I am the boss and the master over a small army :-) Over the years we hired and fired quite a number of individuals, the very product of the fine institution you work at. Their skin was a bit whiter, the English a bit better, yet I must admit not all were necessarily smarter.

For years I been asking WHY. Why people can't do this or that... or simply why Thais do things so very different from what I call logic or common sense.

My answer to the why: first of all in the interest of my personal health and mental condition I still teach myself not to look to close.

Then, they are 2 ways to run a business in Thailand (as a foreigner).

1.) be nice to your staff, have parties, let them listen to music at work, create relaxation zones, encourage the easy life and in return pay small salaries and learn to live with max 40% productivity.

2.) be strict, place limited pressure on your staff, reward performance and pay higher salaries and learn to live with 75% productivity.

JB

I completely understand the group dynamic of Thais. But, a lot of that has to do with a lack of individual initiative tempered by the fear of doing something wrong and being singled out and punished. It's better to fuck up as a group than take the heat for something, individually. Thais can't think for themselves even in a group. It's all about pleasing somebody above, never stepping out of line, doing what you're told and certainly never challenging something or someone, even if competely assinine. This begins in the Thai education system where a student risks serious repercussions if he ever thinks for himself, or questions a teacher, especially if he spots a teacher making a mistake, which often happens. Students have been beaten and/or expelled for asking a teacher to explain something further or for pointing out a mistake a teacher has made. An example of this type of repression was the story recently of a student who was disciplined severely for telling his teacher that the English word for รถบรรทุก (rot ban took) could be also be translated as "truck",according to American English, when she insisted that the only acceptable translation was the Brit-English "Lorry".

When talking about Thai workers, I wasn't just talking about underlings, but co-workers and bosses. Thai bosses are among the most incompetent I've ever encountered. Shit truly does float to the top here. My first boss at The Nation (and still there 11 years later) married into his position (his wife is the owner's sister). He was and still is a fucking babbling idiot.

I'm curious what experience you've had working with Thais above you in your office. Or, are you the boss?

[Old Thai Hand]

OTH

What most foreigners don't comprehend is that Thais work as a collective and not as individuals. Most task are done in a team and group consensus is much appreciated. So like Nic Frenchy correctly stated team building like parties etc helps. But only to a point.

I must admit, when people are most happy in my office, I start to worry as its usually indicates that little is accomplished.

Maybe just my experience. JB

I completely understand the group dynamic of Thais. But, a lot of that has to do with a lack of individual initiative tempered by the fear of doing something wrong and being singled out and punished. It's better to fuck up as a group than take the heat for something, individually. Thais can't think for themselves even in a group. It's all about pleasing somebody above, never stepping out of line, doing what you're told and certainly never challenging something or someone, even if competely assinine. This begins in the Thai education system where a student risks serious repercussions if he ever thinks for himself, or questions a teacher, especially if he spots a teacher making a mistake, which often happens. Students have been beaten and/or expelled for asking a teacher to explain something further or for pointing out a mistake a teacher has made. An example of this type of repression was the story recently of a student who was disciplined severely for telling his teacher that the English word for รถบรรทุก (rot ban took) could be also be translated as "truck",according to American English, when she insisted that the only acceptable translation was the Brit-English "Lorry".

When talking about Thai workers, I wasn't just talking about underlings, but co-workers and bosses. Thai bosses are among the most incompetent I've ever encountered. Shit truly does float to the top here. My first boss at The Nation (and still there 11 years later) married into his position (his wife is the owner's sister). He was and still is a fucking babbling idiot.

I'm curious what experience you've had working with Thais above you in your office. Or, are you the boss?

[Jungle Bluebird]

OTH

What most foreigners don't comprehend is that Thais work as a collective and not as individuals. Most task are done in a team and group consensus is much appreciated. So like Nic Frenchy correctly stated team building like parties etc helps. But only to a point.

I must admit, when people are most happy in my office, I start to worry as its usually indicates that little is accomplished.

Maybe just my experience. JB

To equate Thai workers with workers elsewhere is foolish to say the least. The amount of salary or the quality of the employer has little to do with the effectiveness of your average Thai worker. The vast majority of Thais are under-achievers and have no real ambition; at least ambition that goes hand-in-hand with hard work to achieve a goal, personal or otherwise. I've never seen such a collective mind-set anywhere wherein, the average person feels a sense of entitlement, without earning it, has no sense of loyalty or responsibility, and generally expects the most for the least effort. Thais will quit a job at the drop of a hat without any reason and are in that regard, the most mobile and fluid workforce I've ever witnessed.

After 11 years of working with these people, I have little respect left for them.

[AsiaTraveler2]

I was planning on posting some general information, but it looks like I jumped into the Fight Club thread by mistake! My bad!

AT2

[Giotto]

Giotto,

I wonder how and where you get your so called "infos".
I know a couple of Thais - with and without university diplomas - who are willing to and already did work hard (e.g. double shifts) but can't find a job, or at least none that is paid well.
...

You would largely increase the motivation of your staff by paying better salaries. How hard would you work for a few thousand baht ?

The Traveler,

Funny comment, don't really understand it, I did not even use the word "infos" in my report. And how do you know how much we pay our staff, whether we pay "better" or "worse" salaries?

Anyway, I simply wrote about my experiences with hiring staff here in Thailand, which is a permanent process when you run a hotel / restaurant / bar in Bangkok. And to the discussions with customers doing the same for their companies here in Thailand. And with other hotel managers, with which we exchange information, even exchange staff for training pruposes etc. etc. . Nearly everybody I talk to made the same experience.

...
You obviously don't know much about the problems involved with finding a good job and rather prefer to repeat prejudices instead of dealing with this subject in a proper manner.
...

LOL, you will never change . I am not Thai, and I have a [some] job[s] . And I don't think that I repeat prejudices when I simply write about my own experiences with hiring staff for my company. It's the reality I am dealing with here on a daily basis.


Giotto

[Noman2]

John Euro,

Thanx for advice

[NicFrenchy]

it's common practice to overpay the locals in Thailand (and outbid the overpayers for their employees, and outbid the outbidders.....)?

Yep, especially in areas where it is difficult to find good people (Not Bkk, Chiang Mai adn the other big cities)

Whatever.....the best quality employees will generally work for the best employers as Thailand's economy drags itself kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

I agree. But if you assume the best employer is the one that pays the highest Salary, then we may agree to disagree (is that English? LOL)

Or are you suggesting that the only way to keep things progressing is to keep Mr & Mrs Average Thai on third world salaries?

I am not suggesting anything, you read too much into what I wrote. Just a question, have you worked in Thailand before? have you ever been in a position where you had to hire a Thai? how many people do you have to manage on a daily basis?

I manage over 50 people on a daily basis and they are all loyal to our company. We pay them the normal Market Salaries for their position, but then they get Bonuses, we treat them well,they have a nice adn friendly working environment, get "Leave of absence" when needed, we invite them for treats (lunches, dinners) on a weekly basis, we have monthly outings (Bowling, Pool, PaintBall, Movies), we help them when they have kids, we have Birthday parties, we help them when they have Family problems, etc...

This is how you can build loyalty and trust with the Thais. I am not saying we are perfect, far from it, but of all the employees who have left us for better paid jobs, a lot asked if they could come back.

My mate (who is with a Big Corporation) pays his staff really well, but then if they don't produce or perform to satisfaction, they get the boot.

Third world country Salaries? compared to what?

[Sean_Double]

I've never seen such a collective mind-set anywhere wherein, the average person feels a sense of entitlement, without earning it, has no sense of loyalty or responsibility, and generally expects the most for the least effort. Thais will quit a job at the drop of a hat without any reason and are in that regard, the most mobile and fluid workforce I've ever witnessed.

OTH,
I totally agree with you, although thankfully there are the exceptions.

The part of your post that I quoted made me laugh; don't you think it could also describe the value system metrics taught at Harvard Business School?

Cheers,
Sean

[Old Thai Hand]

Nic, with all due respect, your quoted sentence reads as nonsense to me. Of course an employee will be temped to leave if somebody offers them more money. In what way is this behaviour any different in Thailand to employee behaviour in any other business in any other country? Or are you suggesting that it's common practice to overpay the locals in Thailand (and outbid the overpayers for their employees, and outbid the outbidders.....)?

Whatever.....the best quality employees will generally work for the best employers as Thailand's economy drags itself kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Or are you suggesting that the only way to keep things progressing is to keep Mr & Mrs Average Thai on third world salaries?

To equate Thai workers with workers elsewhere is foolish to say the least. The amount of salary or the quality of the employer has little to do with the effectiveness of your average Thai worker. The vast majority of Thais are under-achievers and have no real ambition; at least ambition that goes hand-in-hand with hard work to achieve a goal, personal or otherwise. I've never seen such a collective mind-set anywhere wherein, the average person feels a sense of entitlement, without earning it, has no sense of loyalty or responsibility, and generally expects the most for the least effort. Thais will quit a job at the drop of a hat without any reason and are in that regard, the most mobile and fluid workforce I've ever witnessed.

After 11 years of working with these people, I have little respect left for them.

[Terry Terrier]

Paying higher Salaries than the Market average is Foolish, it will not make people work any harder, it will help you find staff, sure, but they won't be loyal to you and might leave whenever someone will offer them more money.

Nic, with all due respect, your quoted sentence reads as nonsense to me. Of course an employee will be temped to leave if somebody offers them more money. In what way is this behaviour any different in Thailand to employee behaviour in any other business in any other country? Or are you suggesting that it's common practice to overpay the locals in Thailand (and outbid the overpayers for their employees, and outbid the outbidders.....)?

Whatever.....the best quality employees will generally work for the best employers as Thailand's economy drags itself kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Or are you suggesting that the only way to keep things progressing is to keep Mr & Mrs Average Thai on third world salaries?

[John Euro]

Norman2

For sure much cheaper in the US, the VAT that you can recuperate when leaving Thailand is only 4% with the high risk having to pay duty when entering your own country, the risk on VAT to be paid when entering the EEC is between 16% and 21% depending on the country, some even more + maybe a fine etc. Singapore is much better, HKG pricing is ok but a big problem with only one week warranty and uncompleted sets, they don’t open the new box in front of you, when all is paid then they tell you to buy extra the charger and the other items that are normally provide in the box from the factory. A real scam there.

I am a camera / photo maniac and have been checking most shops in BKK several times and it’s not worth to buy there or spend time on it, pocket cameras are sometimes OK in pricing but SLR and lenses like Nikon & Canon are even more expensive than Europe and US pricing is at least 40% cheaper than the Europe prices.

A few good stores if you like :

The best one is in the MBK shopping centre ,on the 3th floor

Sunny Camera , sometimes bargains ,and all good brands ,

Another good and better one at MBK is Photo Thailand (bigger & all brands )

The best one at MBK is Foto File Co. on the first floor ( Canon & Nikon )
Look at there site for pricing , http://www.fotofile.net/index.php?lang=en.

Check at MBK also the 2e hands camera shops if you are interested .

Both have all mayor brands on bags , cards , tripods etc .
For all kind of electronics , Ipods etc go to Pantip Plaza on Petchaburi Rd.

Hope this is helpful for you

Don’t take any risk on warranty etc , buy in the US

John Euro

[Kaukaukane]

Prices generally lower in USA.

In a few weeks I going to LOS (BKK and Pattaya) for 2 weeks, and I'm looking for any good and cheap electronic store, I like to buy a few lenses for nikon camera.

Any recommendation please?

How is the price in Thailand compared to US prices?