General Reports

[The Traveler]

My point was very specific - that if ANYONE actually uses the posts of other anonymous sorts on an internet forum that purport to describe their own practice or lack thereof of safe sex to make decisions about how they conduct their own business is an imbecile.

Member #2041,

as I already said, we agree on that.

What makes you think that any of what I am posting has the slightest bit to do with my behavior? I have already stated that it's my private business, and for all you know, I'm simply playing Pavlov to your pooch.

In your first post you said you do, but I am well aware of your "cat and mouse game" as 1ball called it.

The point, of course, is that by lecturing someone's anonymous handle on an internet forum, you make a contribution to this goal which most certainly asymptotically approaches zero, hence, said lecture is utterly pointless, and in fact, the actions of anyone who is the slightest bit thoughtful would recognize that fact. And if you genuinely believe that such a contribution in any meaningful way alters your own course of behavior, you are a fool.

I never said that it will have an impact on my own behaviour. what makes you think like that ?

I am well aware that a post directed at an anonymous handle on an internet forum most likely won't have any effect on his behaviour, but opposite to you, I haven't give up hope that he may at least think about what I say.

People, who have already resigned and given up hope will never change anything. Therefore I keep trying even though it might be in vain. It's like bargaining, if you don't try, you won't get a lower price and it doesn't cost you anything, you can only win.

And of course, the reason I bring up the last point is that this entire discussion up to know has dealt with risk and how to mitigate it. But of course, there is also varying reward that goes along with varying degrees of risk. Just as the aforementioned Grand Prix driver has, by driving fast enough to win, knowingly incurred additional risk, AND added a de minimus incremental risk to the general public at large through their behavior, they most certainly have done it because they perceive a greater reward opportunity at the end. And your assumption that they act because they do not appreciate the risk is entirely invalid - they probably fully well understand the incremental risk, and have judged for themself that the incremental reward justifies the taking of that added risk.

I never made that assumption. I know very well that many people knowingly choose to take risks for their very own reasons. But isn't it selfish ?
Don't we have responsibilities ?

[The Traveler]

Maybe he doesn't like you.

Horatio,

fat chance, that's an option I was already thinking about

[Member #2041]

The new airport is being tested and some speculate if it will work... It has to work and it will. juices

Hopefully, the airport itself will remain firmly on the ground, and only the planes coming in and going out will fly.

[Member #2041]

You are also not in complete control of your own risks - ok you are, you can decide to not partake in this hobby, but if you decide otherwise - there is still a residual risk you can't control no matter how careful you are. Even though this residual risk can never be eliminated, it could be dramatically decreased if everybody would refrain from going bareback.

The point, of course, is that by lecturing someone's anonymous handle on an internet forum, you make a contribution to this goal which most certainly asymptotically approaches zero, hence, said lecture is utterly pointless, and in fact, the actions of anyone who is the slightest bit thoughtful would recognize that fact. And if you genuinely believe that such a contribution in any meaningful way alters your own course of behavior, you are a fool.

BTW Traveler, do you spend the rest of your time lecturing Grand Prix racecar drivers that they are endangering themselves, as well as the general public that chooses to attend a race, because they drive so fast?

And of course, the reason I bring up the last point is that this entire discussion up to know has dealt with risk and how to mitigate it. But of course, there is also varying reward that goes along with varying degrees of risk. Just as the aforementioned Grand Prix driver has, by driving fast enough to win, knowingly incurred additional risk, AND added a de minimus incremental risk to the general public at large through their behavior, they most certainly have done it because they perceive a greater reward opportunity at the end. And your assumption that they act because they do not appreciate the risk is entirely invalid - they probably fully well understand the incremental risk, and have judged for themself that the incremental reward justifies the taking of that added risk.

[Member #2041]

If everybody would think like you, nothing would matter anymore. Who knows, maybe you are the first one who goes bareback with her.

LOL! This is one of the funniest statements I have seen on this forum.

You also said that nobody should act depending on other people's behaviour but now you use their behaviour as an argument to justify going bareback. This is inconsistent.

What makes you think that any of what I am posting has the slightest bit to do with my behavior? I have already stated that it's my private business, and for all you know, I'm simply playing Pavlov to your pooch.

My point was very specific - that if ANYONE actually uses the posts of other anonymous sorts on an internet forum that purport to describe their own practice or lack thereof of safe sex to make decisions about how they conduct their own business is an imbecile.

[Horatio]

I also noticed that Member #2041 wording ("imbecile", "stupid", "blatant stupidity") indicates some sort of aggression, but ignored it. Wonder why someone who is able to express himself so eloquent needs to do that.

Maybe he doesn't like you.

[Giotto]

the traveler,

speech is silver, but silence is golden.


giotto

[JuiceSpike]

The new airport is being tested and some speculate if it will work... It has to work and it will. It is a huge accomplishment for Thailand and the new airport is much needed...

From the Post:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/30Jul2006_news01.php

juices

[The Traveler]

Giotto,

I got his point, but you don't get mine.

He says far more than just be as careful as you can because others aren't careful. We agree on that.
He also says that it makes no difference if he would go bareback or not, because others do anyway.

Didn't we just agree that we all have to make our own decisions without depending or relying on our expectations and assumptions of other people's behaviour ?

We don't know about other people's behaviour and therefore we (possibly) can make a difference.

You are also not in complete control of your own risks - ok you are, you can decide to not partake in this hobby, but if you decide otherwise - there is still a residual risk you can't control no matter how careful you are. Even though this residual risk can never be eliminated, it could be dramatically decreased if everybody would refrain from going bareback.

In this context it doesn't matter if he actually goes bareback or not as long as he justifies going bareback by saying that it makes no difference, others will do too.

If you still think that I did not get it I would be glad if you could explain me what I have missed.

You are right, The Traveler, for sure and as always, and we all appreciate to be advised again.

This remark clearly shows that you aren't able to keep it a factual discussion.
Why can't you refrain from any personal attacks ? Remember your own analysis and stick to your own advice.
You again show exactly the sort of behaviour you are criticizing others for.

I realize, that I also did not think that part of it to the end before - but yesterday, when reading the post from Member #2041 I learned something.

Today I would write that report slightly different.

Member #2041 and I are only exchanging our points of view. They may differ, but I can't see anything wrong with it, that's the nature of discussions and why not agree to disagree. If you have a problem with discussions pers se you should ask Jackson to prohibit them in this forum. But I think you should rather be grateful, didn't you just admit that you have learned something as a result of this discussion ?

I also noticed that Member #2041 wording ("imbecile", "stupid", "blatant stupidity") indicates some sort of aggression, but ignored it. Wonder why someone who is able to express himself so eloquent needs to do that.

[Giotto]

Giotto,

even though I agree with most of what he has said, I dare to disagree, as he doesn't thinks it to the very end.
...
And what about the partners of those who go bareback ? Read your own post regarding that issue http://www.internationalsexguide.inf...&postcount=577
...

Yes, The Traveler,

You are right, The Traveler, for sure and as always, and we all appreciate to be advised again.

For me and my personal understanding of the post of Member #2041 you are not even close to understand what he has written. But it is not up to me to explain that to you, may be Member #2041 will do.

If I read my own post which you thankworthy researched out of the stacks of old report I realize, that I also did not think that part of it to the end before - but yesterday, when reading the post from Member #2041 I learned something.

Today I would write that report slightly different.


Giotto

[The Traveler]

Member #2041,

On the spot. Good to read this issue to be thought to the very end.

Giotto

Giotto,

even though I agree with most of what he has said, I dare to disagree, as he doesn't thinks it to the very end.

He completely denies the responsibility of those who actually are going bareback. Of course everybody is responsible for his own behaviour and has to take his own precautions regardless what he might think about other people's behaviour. But as already pointed out, those precautions can fail, condoms can break. Call it bad luck if you like. But if it happens your chances of catching HIV or any other disease will largely depend on the overall ratio of infected people. Having bad luck you will of course still be able to hit the jackpot.

He also denies the fact that many girls don't know about all risks involved and are often forced to comply with customers requests due to their economical situation. Many girls are still ill-informed about HIV and most have never heard of Syphilis, Hepatitis, Clamydia and other nasty stuff. Due to this the girls don't make their decision to agree on going bareback as the well informed and (hopefully) mature persons we are. This makes us mongers responsible for them and all who will follow in the chain.

And what about the partners of those who go bareback ? Read your own post regarding that issue http://www.internationalsexguide.inf...&postcount=577

In short : We all should be careful regardless our expectations and assumptions regarding other people's behaviour and we should condemn going bareback.

[The Traveler]

You are in control of your own risks, and you need to act with the knowledge that it's a moot point what any one other hobbyist claims to be doing with pros. Whether or not I post what I am actually doing, or alternatively, that I might be consciously jerking around people who seem to think that my business is their business, you would have to be incredibly stupid to assume that a hundredfold of others are not still doing whatever they are doing, without posting it one way or the other with the same pros.

Anyone who participates in this hobby without the implicit knowledge that wherever possible, SOME hobbyists, and probably ALOT of hobbyists, are going unprotected, whenever the opportunity presents itself is in denial. And your own behaviour has to be determined based on that knowledge, or else you are sufferring from blatant stupidity. I don't know how to put this any more plainly.

Member #2041,

I totally agree with the above.

If a pro allows me to go bareback, then it makes no difference whether or not I actually do, because surely, dozens of others will.

You are completely wrong on that, you can make a difference !
Do you know the saying : "Save one man's life and you safe the whole world" ?

If everybody would think like you, nothing would matter anymore. Who knows, maybe you are the first one who goes bareback with her. Remember, someone has to be the first. You also said that nobody should act depending on other people's behaviour but now you use their behaviour as an argument to justify going bareback. This is inconsistent.

This way of thinking is the root for most evil in the world.

Anyone who thinks one other person who publicly posts something on a public forum that they may or may not actually be doing actually affects their own risk probabilities, is, plain and simple, an imbecile.

....

To believe that you might somehow diminish your own risk by lecturing an anonymous someone on a public forum whom you have no knowledge of what they are actually doing, might somehow improve your own risk factors (as opposed to how you conduct your own business impacting those risk factors) is nothing short of dillusional.

We can only refer to what you have said about your sexual behaviour. This sort of behaviour bears the potential for spreading diseases and a higher throughout disease rate will improve the overall risk for everybody partaking in this hobby.

I agree that everybody is responsible for his own behaviour and has to take in count that others are going bareback - never denied that or said otherwise - but it doesn't change the fact that the more people are going bareback the higher is the risk of getting infected yourself even when being careful. Condoms can break just like planes can crash.

But if you only post to post something, don't do as you say and don't say as you do, not meaning what you are saying, any discussion is indeed use- and senseless. But then your below posts are also nothing but empty words.

[1Ball]

2041, you are 100% correct, and it is a highly enjoyable read. Your cat and mouse game is amusing. You can be assured, however that there will be several more posts, claiming your foolhardiness for doing or not doing something which of course you know very well to be foolhardy

[Member #2041]

Anyone who actually believes that lecturing me about behavior that I might or might not actually be doing, but which I most assuredly already understand with respect to all of it's consequeces, somehow alters their own risks and in any way their own behavior and THOSE consequences is an idiot. I really have nothing more to add on this subject, as my prior post #532 really said it all. These discussions and the direction that they invariably take are utterly pointless, and THAT is my point.

[Member #2041]

And of course, none of you actually know whether or not I am going bareback. The fact is, I am completely cognizant of the issues involved.