General Reports

[Member #2041]

True, but in nowadays world - at least in most parts of it - there are limits for that self interest for the good of all.

Just curious, who appointed you as the arbiter of those limits for all mongers? Certainly, there are other folks who would draw those boundaries at different points, such as engaging in any type of commercial sex whatsoever. And those folks might outnumber you. Certainly, I see no good reason that you should not acquiesce to their desire to control your behavior, any more than I ought acquiesce to your desire to control mine. That's why I take the position that it's not anyone else's position to try to impose their views on others. I do make sure that all of my activities are with fully consenting partners. And I don't bother to consult anyone else for their opinions about it.

I agree that knowingly spreading HIV is a form of assault and ought well be subject to criminal sanctions as such. But that's not what we are talking about, and it's an entirely irrelevant point.

[Oldbuthappy]

The new airport is being tested and some speculate if it will work... It has to work and it will. It is a huge accomplishment for Thailand and the new airport is much needed...

From the Post:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/30Jul2006_news01.php

juices

Juice,

It seems that the URL no longer exists. So. for members info the new BKK airport (called Suvarnabhumi and pronounced Sawatapoon) will open on Sept. 29, 2006. Yes, I hope it is a great success and that its startup will be problem free.. especially since I will be flying into it from Koh Samui on it opening day

[The Traveler]

According to Adam Smith, self interest is what motivates the world.

True, but in nowadays world - at least in most parts of it - there are limits for that self interest for the good of all. Otherwise factories for example would pollute our environment even more, just to maximize their earnings.

Same applies here, knowingly spreading HIV e.g. is a crime and will be punished with imprisonment.
Do you remember the case of the one-legged German in LOS ? There also have been other cases throughout Europe and the USA.

[Member #2041]

But isn't it selfish ? Don't we have responsibilities ?

According to Adam Smith, self interest is what motivates the world.

[The Traveler]

My point was very specific - that if ANYONE actually uses the posts of other anonymous sorts on an internet forum that purport to describe their own practice or lack thereof of safe sex to make decisions about how they conduct their own business is an imbecile.

Member #2041,

as I already said, we agree on that.

What makes you think that any of what I am posting has the slightest bit to do with my behavior? I have already stated that it's my private business, and for all you know, I'm simply playing Pavlov to your pooch.

In your first post you said you do, but I am well aware of your "cat and mouse game" as 1ball called it.

The point, of course, is that by lecturing someone's anonymous handle on an internet forum, you make a contribution to this goal which most certainly asymptotically approaches zero, hence, said lecture is utterly pointless, and in fact, the actions of anyone who is the slightest bit thoughtful would recognize that fact. And if you genuinely believe that such a contribution in any meaningful way alters your own course of behavior, you are a fool.

I never said that it will have an impact on my own behaviour. what makes you think like that ?

I am well aware that a post directed at an anonymous handle on an internet forum most likely won't have any effect on his behaviour, but opposite to you, I haven't give up hope that he may at least think about what I say.

People, who have already resigned and given up hope will never change anything. Therefore I keep trying even though it might be in vain. It's like bargaining, if you don't try, you won't get a lower price and it doesn't cost you anything, you can only win.

And of course, the reason I bring up the last point is that this entire discussion up to know has dealt with risk and how to mitigate it. But of course, there is also varying reward that goes along with varying degrees of risk. Just as the aforementioned Grand Prix driver has, by driving fast enough to win, knowingly incurred additional risk, AND added a de minimus incremental risk to the general public at large through their behavior, they most certainly have done it because they perceive a greater reward opportunity at the end. And your assumption that they act because they do not appreciate the risk is entirely invalid - they probably fully well understand the incremental risk, and have judged for themself that the incremental reward justifies the taking of that added risk.

I never made that assumption. I know very well that many people knowingly choose to take risks for their very own reasons. But isn't it selfish ?
Don't we have responsibilities ?

[The Traveler]

Maybe he doesn't like you.

Horatio,

fat chance, that's an option I was already thinking about

[Member #2041]

The new airport is being tested and some speculate if it will work... It has to work and it will. juices

Hopefully, the airport itself will remain firmly on the ground, and only the planes coming in and going out will fly.

[Member #2041]

You are also not in complete control of your own risks - ok you are, you can decide to not partake in this hobby, but if you decide otherwise - there is still a residual risk you can't control no matter how careful you are. Even though this residual risk can never be eliminated, it could be dramatically decreased if everybody would refrain from going bareback.

The point, of course, is that by lecturing someone's anonymous handle on an internet forum, you make a contribution to this goal which most certainly asymptotically approaches zero, hence, said lecture is utterly pointless, and in fact, the actions of anyone who is the slightest bit thoughtful would recognize that fact. And if you genuinely believe that such a contribution in any meaningful way alters your own course of behavior, you are a fool.

BTW Traveler, do you spend the rest of your time lecturing Grand Prix racecar drivers that they are endangering themselves, as well as the general public that chooses to attend a race, because they drive so fast?

And of course, the reason I bring up the last point is that this entire discussion up to know has dealt with risk and how to mitigate it. But of course, there is also varying reward that goes along with varying degrees of risk. Just as the aforementioned Grand Prix driver has, by driving fast enough to win, knowingly incurred additional risk, AND added a de minimus incremental risk to the general public at large through their behavior, they most certainly have done it because they perceive a greater reward opportunity at the end. And your assumption that they act because they do not appreciate the risk is entirely invalid - they probably fully well understand the incremental risk, and have judged for themself that the incremental reward justifies the taking of that added risk.

[Member #2041]

If everybody would think like you, nothing would matter anymore. Who knows, maybe you are the first one who goes bareback with her.

LOL! This is one of the funniest statements I have seen on this forum.

You also said that nobody should act depending on other people's behaviour but now you use their behaviour as an argument to justify going bareback. This is inconsistent.

What makes you think that any of what I am posting has the slightest bit to do with my behavior? I have already stated that it's my private business, and for all you know, I'm simply playing Pavlov to your pooch.

My point was very specific - that if ANYONE actually uses the posts of other anonymous sorts on an internet forum that purport to describe their own practice or lack thereof of safe sex to make decisions about how they conduct their own business is an imbecile.

[Horatio]

I also noticed that Member #2041 wording ("imbecile", "stupid", "blatant stupidity") indicates some sort of aggression, but ignored it. Wonder why someone who is able to express himself so eloquent needs to do that.

Maybe he doesn't like you.

[Giotto]

the traveler,

speech is silver, but silence is golden.


giotto

[JuiceSpike]

The new airport is being tested and some speculate if it will work... It has to work and it will. It is a huge accomplishment for Thailand and the new airport is much needed...

From the Post:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/30Jul2006_news01.php

juices

[The Traveler]

Giotto,

I got his point, but you don't get mine.

He says far more than just be as careful as you can because others aren't careful. We agree on that.
He also says that it makes no difference if he would go bareback or not, because others do anyway.

Didn't we just agree that we all have to make our own decisions without depending or relying on our expectations and assumptions of other people's behaviour ?

We don't know about other people's behaviour and therefore we (possibly) can make a difference.

You are also not in complete control of your own risks - ok you are, you can decide to not partake in this hobby, but if you decide otherwise - there is still a residual risk you can't control no matter how careful you are. Even though this residual risk can never be eliminated, it could be dramatically decreased if everybody would refrain from going bareback.

In this context it doesn't matter if he actually goes bareback or not as long as he justifies going bareback by saying that it makes no difference, others will do too.

If you still think that I did not get it I would be glad if you could explain me what I have missed.

You are right, The Traveler, for sure and as always, and we all appreciate to be advised again.

This remark clearly shows that you aren't able to keep it a factual discussion.
Why can't you refrain from any personal attacks ? Remember your own analysis and stick to your own advice.
You again show exactly the sort of behaviour you are criticizing others for.

I realize, that I also did not think that part of it to the end before - but yesterday, when reading the post from Member #2041 I learned something.

Today I would write that report slightly different.

Member #2041 and I are only exchanging our points of view. They may differ, but I can't see anything wrong with it, that's the nature of discussions and why not agree to disagree. If you have a problem with discussions pers se you should ask Jackson to prohibit them in this forum. But I think you should rather be grateful, didn't you just admit that you have learned something as a result of this discussion ?

I also noticed that Member #2041 wording ("imbecile", "stupid", "blatant stupidity") indicates some sort of aggression, but ignored it. Wonder why someone who is able to express himself so eloquent needs to do that.

[Giotto]

Giotto,

even though I agree with most of what he has said, I dare to disagree, as he doesn't thinks it to the very end.
...
And what about the partners of those who go bareback ? Read your own post regarding that issue http://www.internationalsexguide.inf...&postcount=577
...

Yes, The Traveler,

You are right, The Traveler, for sure and as always, and we all appreciate to be advised again.

For me and my personal understanding of the post of Member #2041 you are not even close to understand what he has written. But it is not up to me to explain that to you, may be Member #2041 will do.

If I read my own post which you thankworthy researched out of the stacks of old report I realize, that I also did not think that part of it to the end before - but yesterday, when reading the post from Member #2041 I learned something.

Today I would write that report slightly different.


Giotto

[The Traveler]

Member #2041,

On the spot. Good to read this issue to be thought to the very end.

Giotto

Giotto,

even though I agree with most of what he has said, I dare to disagree, as he doesn't thinks it to the very end.

He completely denies the responsibility of those who actually are going bareback. Of course everybody is responsible for his own behaviour and has to take his own precautions regardless what he might think about other people's behaviour. But as already pointed out, those precautions can fail, condoms can break. Call it bad luck if you like. But if it happens your chances of catching HIV or any other disease will largely depend on the overall ratio of infected people. Having bad luck you will of course still be able to hit the jackpot.

He also denies the fact that many girls don't know about all risks involved and are often forced to comply with customers requests due to their economical situation. Many girls are still ill-informed about HIV and most have never heard of Syphilis, Hepatitis, Clamydia and other nasty stuff. Due to this the girls don't make their decision to agree on going bareback as the well informed and (hopefully) mature persons we are. This makes us mongers responsible for them and all who will follow in the chain.

And what about the partners of those who go bareback ? Read your own post regarding that issue http://www.internationalsexguide.inf...&postcount=577

In short : We all should be careful regardless our expectations and assumptions regarding other people's behaviour and we should condemn going bareback.