General Info

[Poucolouco]

Everything you wrote after the first sentence has nothing to do with my original post, which was about explaining how the Vale Transporte works. LOL. Ah well, my ignore list hadn't grown in a while.

Explaining how the Vale Transporte works. Peace!

[Eric Cartman]

I didn't miss your point. Your analysis applies to one segment of the public transit users. The transit fare increase applies to every use of the system. It is not limited to the daily commute for Petrobras and Banco do Brasil employees. It applies to all commuters, even the self-employed, the unemployed and the un-subsidized students. It applies to the shopping trip, the trip to the medico, all transit travel. It is but a single element in the grievances of the demonstrators. Otherwise they would have laid down their placards when the increase was rescinded. Inflation is currently in excess of 6 percent. The demonstrations are rooted in the bad economy, corruption, fiscal waste and incompetence of the government.

Everything you wrote after the first sentence has nothing to do with my original post, which was about explaining how the Vale Transporte works. LOL. Ah well, my ignore list hadn't grown in a while.

[Phunluv]

Speaking of inflation, it's obviously been a major topic on this board for a couple of years now. Maybe the anger and frustration mongers were feeling has finally reached the mainstream of Brazilian society. Ha, ha, seriously though, it would be interesting to learn where the rate increases in the termas are going. Are the girls getting paid a bit more, or is it all going to the owners? Or are the owners themselves being squeezed by bigger pay-offs, lease increases, etc?

[Tiradentes]

I wish I was in Brazil to join in the protests.

I would have demonstrated to have Rio give Terma L'Uomo its license back so it can re-open.

I would have demonstrated to have Rio cut in half the prices on hotels, termas, and the working girls.

I would have demonstrated to have Rio force Terma Centaurus to fire its management, cut the entrance fee, and hire the best talent Rio has to offer.

And most importantly, I would have demonstrated to have Rio get its first class and world renowned services back from the late 90's to the mid 2000's.

[Sperto]

Normally the brazilians complain silently but do nothing to change their situation. All troubles are forgotten on the weekend when they go to the beach, have churrasco and beer with friends and fotball on Sundays.
It seems like the brazilians are waking up. I hope something good comes out of the protests.

[Mr Enternational]

Are the vans still not running in Rio Zona Sul? If not that would have been pretty fucked up to outlaw the vans and jack up the bus price.

[Exec Talent]

I didn't miss your point. Your analysis applies to one segment of the public transit users. The transit fare increase applies to every use of the system. It is not limited to the daily commute for Petrobras and Banco do Brasil employees. It applies to all commuters, even the self-employed, the unemployed and the un-subsidized students. It applies to the shopping trip, the trip to the medico, all transit travel. It is but a single element in the grievances of the demonstrators. Otherwise they would have laid down their placards when the increase was rescinded. Inflation is currently in excess of 6 percent. The demonstrations are rooted in the bad economy, corruption, fiscal waste and incompetence of the government.

Seems the Brazilians are at least gaining the world's attention. Hopefully the protests will result in some positive changes. Lifelong bureaucrats are a drain on every economy. The problem is even after they retire they still are taking money from the pockets of the working man.

[Poucolouco]

You missed my point, or perhaps I did not explain it well. The deduction (currently a flat 6% or 7%) of the employees salary also likely will go up. So the employee will not get a free ride where their flat deduction stays the same (the money the company deducts from each paycheck in exchange for the VT) , but the company pays them R$0. 20 more per trip.

Your other point about pass-through is correct (where possible) and I have no argument with it. Of course for start-up companies with no revenue, the pass-through is harder.

I didn't miss your point. Your analysis applies to one segment of the public transit users. The transit fare increase applies to every use of the system. It is not limited to the daily commute for Petrobras and Banco do Brasil employees. It applies to all commuters, even the self-employed, the unemployed and the un-subsidized students. It applies to the shopping trip, the trip to the medico, all transit travel. It is but a single element in the grievances of the demonstrators. Otherwise they would have laid down their placards when the increase was rescinded. Inflation is currently in excess of 6 percent. The demonstrations are rooted in the bad economy, corruption, fiscal waste and incompetence of the government.

[Eric Cartman]

You should run it by your Economics professor, it's called cost pass through. The companies will not eat the increase. They pass it on to their customers by raising prices. Thus it contributes to inflation, which is one of the basic grievances of the demonstrators.

You missed my point, or perhaps I did not explain it well. The deduction (currently a flat 6% or 7%) of the employees salary also likely will go up. So the employee will not get a free ride where their flat deduction stays the same (the money the company deducts from each paycheck in exchange for the VT) , but the company pays them R$0. 20 more per trip.

Your other point about pass-through is correct (where possible) and I have no argument with it. Of course for start-up companies with no revenue, the pass-through is harder.

[Bravo]

Now that the bus fare will not increase 20 cents, I wonder if people will continue to protest in order to accomplish the other things they want done in Brasil. It took 1 week, hundreds of thousands of people in the streets and international news media before they finally agreed not to increase the tariff. I can only imagine how long it would take to accomplish something like having better hospitals and schools.

[Phunluv]

You should run it by your Economics professor, it's called cost pass through. The companies will not eat the increase. They pass it on to their customers by raising prices. Thus it contributes to inflation, which is one of the basic grievances of the demonstrators.

Yes, that's exactly it, someone has to end up paying. I suspect another factor at play here with the intensity of the protests is that these fares have been inching up in recent years but the transportation is as bad as ever, if not slightly worse than normal.

You can argue it's always been this way in Brazil but there's a different dynamic here because the World Cup and Olympics is like a big party Brazil is throwing for the rest of the world, trying to present a positive forward image, and the natives know it's kind of a facade.

Also the "Brazil Boom" of recent years is over. GDP growth was pretty flat this past year yet inflation remains high. I suspect if there wasn't so much money being pumped in to prep for the World Cup & Olympics, Brazil would actually be in a mild recession right now; you could even call it mild "stagflation" although it's hard to tease out just how much of the inflation is caused by all the spending on the big upcoming sporting events. My point is, even mild stagflation sucks (remember the 70's?) and so it's understandable that the natives are getting a bit restless.

[Poucolouco]

You get a flat % deduction of your salary, might be 6% or 7, and then the employer has to cover the full cost of your daily transport.

So if you make, say, R$1000 per month but have R$20 / day (R$10 each way) of buses / ferries / etc, you come out ahead.

Deduction: R$70 deducted from your paycheck (7%)

Employer VT: R$20 * 20 work days / mo (or whatever) = $400 in Vale Transporte (the transport benefit)

It breaks down when you earn a high salary, which is why nobody making, say, more than R$5000 per month takes the VT benefit.

However when I ran this logic past my Brazilian friends, they all said that the deduction will go up to compensate for the increased benefit (due to increased fares) to the end user / worker. So it's not like the companies will eat 100% of the increase.

You should run it by your Economics professor, it's called cost pass through. The companies will not eat the increase. They pass it on to their customers by raising prices. Thus it contributes to inflation, which is one of the basic grievances of the demonstrators.

[Golfinho]

Why?

Poor do not protest when they get all the "support". There are all kinds of financial aids: Bolsa familia, bolsa cracudo, bolsa puta, bolsa this and bolsa that. Even the convicts family gets more money than an honest worker. So you won't see the poor in the barricades. And the show goes on.

Just like in America, where they know how to buy off the poor: the dregs who come from nothing, no talent, no education, no future but they can sign up to the poor mans' college, be military enlistees. Tools suckin' tit, they get bought off and can go to poor countries strut around like little kings even though they are nothing in their home country.

[Eric Cartman]

While I was caught up in the shit in Sao Paulo this past weekend my girl who came down from Belo Horizonte explained to me that just as the place of work has to cover lunch, they also have to cover most of the bus fare. She said that of the 20 cent that it is going up, the worker only has to pay 6 cent of it. She is 40 and a university student and seemed to think the whole protest thing is bullshit.

You get a flat % deduction of your salary, might be 6% or 7, and then the employer has to cover the full cost of your daily transport.

So if you make, say, R$1000 per month but have R$20 / day (R$10 each way) of buses / ferries / etc, you come out ahead.

Deduction: R$70 deducted from your paycheck (7%)

Employer VT: R$20 * 20 work days / mo (or whatever) = $400 in Vale Transporte (the transport benefit)

It breaks down when you earn a high salary, which is why nobody making, say, more than R$5000 per month takes the VT benefit.

However when I ran this logic past my Brazilian friends, they all said that the deduction will go up to compensate for the increased benefit (due to increased fares) to the end user / worker. So it's not like the companies will eat 100% of the increase.

[Prosal]

I was surprised that there seems to be so few "typical poor guys" (black people and nordestinos) in the protests. It seems like the majority are white. A mixture of Patricinhas, Mauricinhos, students, maconheiros, hippies, veados, communists and plain troublemakers.

What happens in Brasil, Turkey, etc. Is exactly what happened in USA, France, Italy, ect in 1968. The middle-class 18-29 yo population is demographically the most important part of the population. They require more rights, freedom, less corruption etc.