American Politics

[Bart9000]

I am actually not referring to having a closed border in the sense that you are thinking of.....keeping non-citizens out.

I'm actually referring to the old Soviet style closed border.....keeping citizens (trying to escape from a fascist dictatorship) IN.
This could be a realistic scenario under the trends that were taking place under the unfettered bush administration-it sounds like you saw that post.

B9k

[Doctor_Skank]

MJG Dogs:

There is no such things as "best friends" in world politics, every country is ultimately there to protect its own interests, which is exactly what a country's leadership should do.... protect and represent the interests of the country... not just protecting the interests of the actual leadership running it.

My beef if with the current administration, whose pursuit of their own self-interests is undermining the good of the country to a degree I haven't personally experienced with the last presidents... and I have been following politics actively since Carter.

And don't give me the standard republican "Clinton this Clinton that". Like him or not, he was a good president and improved America's position in the world and the situation for our citizens. We gave him the ball and he didn't fumble. Same with Reagan. I hated him then, but in retrospect he was a good president, despite his inability to speak coherently. Bush is far worse... and has been coughing the ball up right and left.

France, Germany, England, Spain, Italy, Russia whomever are never going to see eye to eye with us on everything, but completely alienating and directly insulting them in a meaningless grandstanding fashion is just [CodeWord140] poor politics.

I suppose that's my biggest problem with Bushco in general... they are just [CodeWord140] poor politicians and make us look like fools. International goodwill IS necessary... without it, achieving our goals is much more difficult.

Iraq? We are there now, so worrying about why we got there in the first place is increasingly irrelevant... the spilled milk scenario. We need a better mop.

Torture? The whole Abu Ghraib thing is less significant than most make it out to be... it definitely isn't as much of an issue as the wasteful Guantanamo complex, where prisoners have gained an average of something like 35 pounds each because all they do is eat all day. For many, it must be like heaven without the virgins. A waste of money. Any intelligence we could have gotten out of those guys is no longer valid, al Queda structures have since changed and adapted.

[MJG Dogs]

Some of your don't get it.

You Complain about International goodwill and torture.
You Complain about facism and "The Culture of Dictatorship"

You all have the right to dissent. I agree that Bush totally fucked up in Iraq, as regard to strategy, and by announcing to Iraq, when we were coming. Where there WMD? maybe, if so where are they ? Syria, Iran maybe. Why telegraph your intentions and then have no after strategy and no timetable for reconstruction etc.... NEXT

International Goodwill: Vastly Over-Rated. The Europeans have always tried to undermine any American President whom protects Americans first. They still have a perception that we are still a colony of thiers. The Europeans meddling in our 2004 elections, stank of arrogance and pettiness. Who in the fuck are they to dictate to the american electorate. Besides look at the French, prostitutes whom will sell anything to anyone. The Spainish, who sold Hugo Chavez, Chemical and Biological agents ( documented), and that prepetual Rats Nest the EU. Europe has never been a true alley of the USA, only when it suits them. Remember the left in europe claimed that Reagan was going to blow up the World etc... Now look at Europe a dying continent being over run by Islamo-Ding-A-Ling.

Torture- Oh my God someone put a dog collar on a prisoner, put a hood on a prisoner,and piled some naked guys into a pile, Ok stupid yes, but torture???
Should the soldiers been punished for this-Yes, but god some of you don't get it- the prisoners at club-gitmo eat better than anyone in any US prison. I see a lot of portly Muslims in the pictures.

Are you people out of your minds. Torture- Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Pol-Pot, and you equate Abu-Grab and Gitmo with torture? jesus if that is the case you are turing European in this country. Might as well blare the Village people over the loudspeakers in every major city. Is the under-belly of this country now that soft?


Dictatorship- I guess that means domestic wiretapping and the Patriot act.Hmmm one of the greatest icon in Democratic party history, spied on thousands of americans, and intured a whole race of americans in prsion camps during World War 2. Roosevelt suspended more rights than Bush ever imagened too. Dictatorship means no more free elctions, it looks like tha American public voted for a change in dictatorship USA last 10 days ago.

If you guys want to become another Europe, then we have major major problems. Sorry bart, why you have some valid points, you fear about having a Closed Border, Puzzles me. What is wrong with having a fence?

[Bart9000]

....to anyone reading this that this individual is making a grandstanding pretense about offending his typographical and formatting sensibilities so as to avoid demonstrating that he lacks the ability to generate a logical valid counterargument to mine below?

I made a logical case that we in the United States had been headed towards (possibly theocratic) facism with "dissidents" disappearing into the night, and possibly closed borders. His only response was to call me "paranoid", which is an ad hominem attack, a classic logical fallacy, basically attacking the arguer instead of the argument......he then "made his (kneejerk, reactionary) case" based on having successfully refuted my assertions

I believe that if he had a logical counterargument, we would not be quibbling about my keystroke error in slipping an "n" into "childish" if he had anywhere else to go in the argument. Instead of being a man and admitting that his positions were in error, we get the grammar and formatting nazi.

B9k

[Hardbarg]

Oh yeah - weald is a homonym. Sometimes they creep in.

[Hardbarg]

It’s clearly necessary to explain to you what is obvious to anyone else, so let me help you out here. When you try to demonstrate you’re not childish, and misspell the word while doing it, that’s pretty damned funny. Even you have to admit that’s a childlike mistake - though I doubt you’re capable of that much introspection.

When the error is pointed out to you, and you respond with another little hissy fit (I like that one) that demonstrates you are completely oblivious, both to the mistake and the irony of your cluelessness, that’s off the charts hilarious.

But when you say to the guy who found your spelling error, the mistake you still haven’t picked up on,“you appear not to have good command of the basics”, well that’s just fucking priceless.

I told you before about being sloppy. Adding clown to the resume doesn’t help. If you’re going to continue with the insults and the personal attacks, you really need to clean up your act.

I sure hope I can keep you going. You are an endless source of amusement.

[Bart9000]

It's a fucking typo. What's "weald"? Did I throw a fucking hissy over your inability to spell "wield"? Why not....because I'm not looking for pissy little bullshit to complain about so that I can put off showing that I can't generate a valid counterargument.

You conversely complain about typo's, formatting, bile, venom.....everything BUT a relevant valid response.

So tell me, do you actually lie to yourself that this is the reason you can't come up with a valid response to my points, or is it only to other people?

B9k

[Hardbarg]

You really are totally clueless aren't you? That explains a lot. I give up. What's "childinsh"?

[Bart9000]

........a question mark on the end of that statement. This would make it a question, not a statement. No wonder you don't seem to be able to read my material, as you appear not to have good command of the basics.

Keep it up. Every bit of venom that you spit out reads to me as "I'm trying to cover up the fact that I can't defend my positions with a valid argument."

B9k

[Hardbarg]

"I'm childinsh?" I rest my case.

[Bart9000]

I forgot one from the loudmouth idiot playbook. "Oh no, I'm not those things, YOU ARE"!!!!! Someone, sometime told you morons that the best way to get over on an accusation is to accuse your accuser of actually engaging in it themselves....or publicly decry exactly what it is that you do....for example "The No-Spin Zone", where nothing but spinning takes place.



Basically it's the "grown up" equivalent of "I know you are but what am I".


Like I said. You want to read my stuff? Go from left to right, and when you get to the end of a line go down one and repeat the process. I'm not going to bother "making it pretty" because I know that this is just a bullshit pretense to keep from admitting that you don't have a rational argument to counter mine. You can spit venom and call me names all day long, but that doesn't change the situation.
B9k

[Hardbarg]

Rationalize, and run away. Bluster and grandstand. You hit every tactic in the loudmouth idiots playbook. I've seen plenty like you around. None can put together a rational argument and defend it with facts and reason.

Everything you say here applies equally to you, I've just been trying to avoid all the name calling. Childish.

What are you going to do if I "clean up" my copy?
B9k

Read it.

[Digital Curry]

Hard to believe that anyone has a single good thing to say about Bush, the single greatest American disaster in recent history. Recovering from him will take a decade... if things go well.

Things won't go that well. The worst thing Bush did was not 5 trillion dollars debt, or ruinous war, or recruit a billiion sympathizer for the terrorists, or torture.

The worst thing bush did was to create a Culture of Dictatorship in the US government. USA's greatest gift was a government culture that encouraged cooperation, friendship and discussion.

Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Rove ruined the governmental culture, moved us towards fascism and a Culture of Dictatorship.

[Digital Curry]

Even the neocons are against Bush. Perle, one of the architects behind iraq, said Bush ruined the war with incompetence and corruption.

I'm beginning to understand the Neocons. Even if you think its in our benefit to have oil wars, Bush ruined it.

"Nancy Pelosi is incompetent?"

Is that what you think this election was about? Nancy Pelosi?

Whether you are democrat, republican, or independant, doesn't matter.
This election was about creating oversight over president who is
out-of-control, immature, sociopath leading us into totalitarianism
and I am simple amazed the election wasn't (more) stolen.

[Doctor_Skank]

Hard to believe that anyone has a single good thing to say about Bush, the single greatest American disaster in recent history. Recovering from him will take a decade... if things go well.

Iran a threat? Damn right! And even more so since the Bush era began, sapping our economy, military, international support and morale of needed strength with his misguided, childish war of terrir'.

I am as hawkish as they come when it comes to defending America's borders BEYOND our borders.. especially in this age of terrorism... but for God's sake, let's be clever about it and not clumsy and oafish as we have been under Bush.