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  1. #14093
    Quote Originally Posted by Xpartan  [View Original Post]

    Just to be clear, I'm not against transgenders (when transitions are truly justified), but imagine that you have to compete with someone who's a priori faster and stronger than you are. How can you accommodate trans (even if there are very few of them) that wouldn't hurt competing female athletes who don't naturally possess these abilities? Is it even possible at all?
    The 34% number I put up as high schoolers participation rate is for entire student body, trans participation rate is 10-12%, according to some studies. But I used the 34% to demonstrate how miniscule the number is, even after inflated and doubled. The article attached demonstrates how small it really is in certain states. Example of the Article (listed below) states that in Ohio, a larger state had a total of 13 students participated since 2015. I'm going to assume that when you asserted "competing female athletes" it relates to individual like track and field, tennis, wrestling, etc. From the Ohio example, if you factor in team sports (basketball, volleyball, soccer, etc), which I thing would be more appropriate, we're looking at less than 1 person per year.

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/stat...es-some-places

    Your second question, and only considering individual sports, we would have seen domination of titles in every state, which is not true, so it is possible for straight females to defeat trans females in competition. Strongest and fastest don't always win. Usain Bolt had bad days where he's human and loses.

    Usain Bolt fastest 100 M is 9. 58/ Flo-Jo is 10.49. Most male Olympians go under 10 seconds. And you can say ah-ha "see? And you would be correct. But we are not talking about the Olympics but rather high schools, where we encourage the kids to go out have fun, be healthy with exercise, and hope they learn about comraderies and friendships (good sportsmanship).

  2. #14092

    The Trump / Repub Love For Open Borders and Fenantyl Addiction Knows No Bounds.

    Trump, ChristoFacist Mike and the Repub Pink Tinkle House Majority LOVE and PREFER Open Borders and widespread Fenantyl Addiction so much they simply cannot bring themselves to agree to even put up for a vote the Border Crisis Solution Bill that a Ruby Red Repub Senator from a Ruby Red Repub State negotiated and was quite happy about:

    Mike Johnson Won't Bring Senate Border Bill Up For A Vote.
    Because you know who is pulling his strings!


    https://crooksandliars.com/2024/02/m...te-border-bill

    ....."As speaker Johnson calls this even worse than expected, the lead Republican senator who negotiated the bill, James Langford of Oklahoma, responded to those comments."

    LANGFORD: I'm a little confused how it's worse than expected when it builds border wall, expands deportation flights, expands ICE officers, border patrol officers, detention beds, how it creates a faster process for deportation, how it clears up a lot of the long term issues and loopholes that have existed in the asylum law, and it gives us emergency authority that stops the chaos right now on the border. So I'm a little confused. I'll have to be able to get with the speaker's team on that and find out what part would be quote, unquote, worse than what we expected, based on the actual text. Hopefully they've had an opportunity to actually read through the text.
    Otherwise promoted in MSM polls as "handling the border crisis better than Biden and the Dems. " Lololol.

  3. #14091

    Repubs just don't want to SOLVE REAL PROBLEMS...

    Quote Originally Posted by CheckMate1  [View Original Post]
    Article entitled OPINION
    Not going to justify or dismiss this article.

    I feel for the 1% of the population going through this, the individual, their families, the doctors who have to advise them of options. Why I feel this topic should not be political is that this subset of the population deserves to be able to go through this process privately. What I mean by this is, whether they're going to go to the bathroom, or being on a youth team sports not "designated" for them is inconsequential to US. But for whatever reasons, some of us feel like our chances / freedom is being taken away.

    How? Because a straight person like to be in a public bathroom not having to, by chance, look at another human going to the bathroom who don't look like them. We did this already with other differences for many years in the US, South Africa, and Germany, and other countries.
    Great post! Once again nicely put!

    Yes, much of the right-winger agendas, would have Americans pay more attention looking over in the "right corner", while they take away your REAL freedoms and rights (ie. abortion, women's healthcare or affordable healthcare) over from the "left corner" of the political spectrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by CheckMate1  [View Original Post]
    Unlike people who are invested in this subject, to be soooo outraged by the thought of someone who isn't like them is SHARING a public spot, I don't care. ...

    #2, that we are "protecting" kids from Pedos. ...
    #3, it creates an unfair advantage for transgenders to compete with a girls in high school. ...

    Raw stats: 1. 4% of pop between 13-17 identify themselves as trans; 34% participates in sports. Total 13-17 in US is about 300,000. ...

    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...united-states/

    To me, the article demonstrates how hard it is go through life "not Normal". Decisions you and I never need to think about or have to make. And then, how some among us go out of our ways to make it even harder on their lives just trying to live a "normal" life. I say this for black people who have to live through segregations, jews through the nazi era, gays throughout history, and now transgenders.
    Right-wing politics have always used "minority" groups of society to inflame and enrage their base and divide the populous along racial, ethnic, cultural and sexual orientation lines. Especially when they can't run on a "the economy is bad...vote for us!" campaign.

    Unfortunately it's a much proven divisive tactic, to obfuscate and scapegoat (as you've eloquently mentioned), the REAL problems of society.

    Don't forget, it really says something (mostly foul) about a political party (ie. were NOT a REAL party), that negatively focuses more on issues of the 1%, than those of 99% of their populous.

    Oh, no instead of addressing REAL ISSUES, they would have Americans heads in the sand, chasing "fool's gold", talking about meaningless culture wars, meaningless fictional purple character's sexual orientation, or as previously mentioned and foretold, the ominous boogeymen/boogeywomen, come to drag us all to hell.

    Whether it is:
    • - book burning/banning {dictionaries included}
      - bathroom hijinx
      - the "boogeymen" and "boogeywomen" (ie. like Taylor Swift)
      - purple dinosaurs and purple teletubbie babies
    It's ALL JUST ONE BIG DISTRACTION to turn and look over in the "right-corner" at less meaningful and ridiculous issues for the majority of Americans.

    The funny (and most hilarious) thing, about what right-wing QAnon/MAGA politics is clearly showing Americans, that even when good, viable bi-partisan bills and policies are put on the table, to address REAL problems...THEY DON'T WANT TO SOLVE REAL PROBLEMS! (Note: Especially if it is the Dems, initiating said bi-partisan legislation. Which is almost always!)

    WHY don't Repubs, want to solve real problems...you ask?
    • Simple put, "hate", "nihilism", "anarchy", "thuggery", "grifting" and "do nothing" politics have become the order of the day for Repubs and Trump.
    • Simple put, on the one hand, they want to distract Americans (especially they're base) from anything substantive. And while distracted, "pick your pockets" clean, thus benefiting their wealth rich and billionaire donor class.
    Personally, I'll continue to primarily focus on the bi-partisan good being done to benefit ALL Americas.

  4. #14090

    Uh

    Quote Originally Posted by MarquisdeSade1  [View Original Post]
    60%? I vote for 160%, and India should be next
    "Being a classic Repub, America's economy doing historically well today while China's economy is crap really, really bothers Trump.

    Therefore, he is already floating his plan to "turn this economy around" in classic Repub fashion should just enough of the American electorate prove themselves incapable of choosing the correct answer for what 2+2 equals and put him back into the White House:

    https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/tr...04/id/1152208/
    You do know that it is the American consumer who ultimately pays those Failed Loser Trump Trade War Trump Tariffs, right?

    It is not Indians in India or the Chinese in China who ultimately pay those Trump / Repub hyper inflated prices.

    Who Really Pays the Tariffs? U.S. Firms and Consumers, Through Higher Prices.
    Dec. 15, 2021


    https://taxfoundation.org/blog/who-really-pays-tariffs/

    Oh, Tariffs can be imposed without crippling the domestic economy or reducing jobs creation if the accompanying economic legislation and stewardship is sterling, brilliant, highly effective enough to override the damage done by them. Shhh. Don't tell Larry Summers about that. It would crush him.

    Biden / the Dems have been able to manage that result.

    Trump / the Repubs did not. And never will. It is simply beyond a Repub's grasp to know how to do that and do it.

  5. #14089

    You Have Been Warned. Vote Accordingly.

    Beware Trump's admiration for Putin, Xi and Erdogan.

    https://www.ft.com/content/28e1e7da-...3-9a26f8c3cba4

    https://news.knowledia.com/GB/en/art...37efe246b56267

    Turkey's inflation sees biggest monthly jump since August, near 65% year-on-year.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/05/turk...ndroidappshare

    In January, Turkish inflation logged its biggest monthly jump since August with a 6.7% rise from December, while year-on-year inflation hit nearly 65%.

    Food, beverages and tobacco, as well as transportation, all increased between roughly 5% and 7% month-on-month, while housing was up 7.4% since December.

    The figures come two days after Turkeys appointment of a new central bank governor, Fatih Karahan.
    Do not doubt for one minute that Donald Wannabe Dictator Trump, ChristoFacist Mike, Moscow Mitch, virtually every Repub in Congress and every Repub voter would dearly LOVE to trade the historically positive USA Economy, Recovery, Expansion, Jobs Creation, Wage Gains and National Security as produced by President Joe Biden and the Dems for the horrific crap Economic and National. Security conditions produced by Trump's Authoritarian Dictator Idols in a nanosecond!

  6. #14088

    60%? I vote for 160%, and India should be next

    "Being a classic Repub, America's economy doing historically well today while China's economy is crap really, really bothers Trump.

    Therefore, he is already floating his plan to "turn this economy around" in classic Repub fashion should just enough of the American electorate prove themselves incapable of choosing the correct answer for what 2+2 equals and put him back into the White House:

    https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/tr...04/id/1152208/

  7. #14087

    The Sheriff is coming

    "Being a classic Repub, America's economy doing historically well today while China's economy is crap really, really bothers Trump.

    Therefore, he is already floating his plan to "turn this economy around" in classic Repub fashion should just enough of the American electorate prove themselves incapable of choosing the correct answer for what 2+2 equals and put him back into the White House:

    Line up all available military and commercial cargo planes, all public and private buses.

    All hands on deck.

    All trains planes and buses.

    Mass raids and deportations are coming REST ASSURED.

    Stay tuned.

    Jan 2025.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/04/u...interview.html

    Allahu Akbar.

    And thanks Scumbag Joe!!

  8. #14086

    The end is nigh for all you evil mofos

    "Being a classic Repub, America's economy doing historically well today while China's economy is crap really, really bothers Trump.

    Therefore, he is already floating his plan to "turn this economy around" in classic Repub fashion should just enough of the American electorate prove themselves incapable of choosing the correct answer for what 2+2 equals and put him back into the White House:

    https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/jo...04/id/1152209/

    https://www.wral.com/story/poll-20-p...rump/21267551/

  9. #14085

    Trump's Tax Hikes on everyone and Hyper-Inflation plans, Part 2

    Being a classic Repub, America's economy doing historically well today while China's economy is crap really, really bothers Trump.

    Therefore, he is already floating his plan to "turn this economy around" in classic Repub fashion should just enough of the American electorate prove themselves incapable of choosing the correct answer for what 2+2 equals and put him back into the White House:

    Trump floats 'more than' 60% tariffs on Chinese imports.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/04/trum...ndroidappshare

    Trump confirmed that he would impose tariffs of 60% or higher on Chinese goods were he to win a second term in office.

    His tariff strategy could revive the trade war he triggered during his first term as president when he imposed $250 billion in China tariffs.

    Trumps China trade war disrupted the global economy, raised consumer costs, stirred stock markets and put U.S.-China relations on ice.
    .....
    "What Donald Trumps about to do, is hes going to raise every households expenses by $2,600 a year, said Haley in a January interview on CNBCs Squawk Box, referencing data from the fiscally conservative National Taxpayers Union.

    Her disapproval echoes the concerns of Wall Street investors who worry that another China trade war would disrupt markets again.

    Starting in 2018, Trump began a wave of $250 billion in tariffs against China. The country then struck back with its own set of tariffs against the U.S. in a back-and-forth economic battle that lasted years and disrupted global trade dynamics.

    Trumps trade war with China cost Americans an estimated $195 billion since 2018, according to the American Action Forum, a conservative think tank. The economic battle also led to the loss of more than 245,000 U.S. jobs, according to the U.S.-China Business Council.

    At the time, Deutsche Bank estimated that the trade war was causing the stock market to hemorrhage trillions.

    The tariff dispute also left the U.S. and China, once each others biggest trading partners, on rocky geopolitical terms. President Joe Biden has been trying to warm the icy relations throughout his administration.

    Trump has attacked Biden for appeasing China while simultaneously expressing cozy sentiments toward Chinas authoritarian president, Xi Jinping.

    I like President Xi a lot, Trump said Sunday. He was a really good friend of mine during my time.

    Trump has in the past praised Xi for the ironclad grip he has on his government and his people. In an interview with Fox Newss Sean Hannity in December, Trump said if he is re-elected for a second term he would be a dictator from day one.

  10. #14084

    Uh

    Quote Originally Posted by MarquisdeSade1  [View Original Post]
    What no Jew hating HAKEEM you typically RACIST leftard LMAO "LOL. I swear I heard some Repub Trumper Numbskull in Michigan open his piehole in front of a reporter's microphone and proudly announce he was going to vote for Trump over Biden because, "I know Trump will do the best thing for the American worker. ".

    Oh my God. The dude was so ignorant he apparently has no idea that Trump's classic Repub economic policies and stewardship wiped out Tens of Millions of American Worker Jobs, finally ending his godawful so-called presidency with fewer American Worker Jobs than existed when Obama-Biden handed him better economic conditions than any Repub administration has ever handed an incoming Dem!

    Even by this point in Trump's so-called presidency, before his 2018,2019 and 2020 economic and national security policies and stewardship created Trump's Pandemic, his and his idiot Repub Majority in Congress' one and only godawful economic "stimulus" legislation, costing an addition to the defict of $Trillions, had created FEWER American Worker jobs with it than in the three prior years without it!

    This is not an election year so much as it is a USA national I. Q. Test with the equivalent of one simple question;.

    Does 2+2=4 or does 2+2=1?

    If Trump wins the election or rather is appointed by the Electoral College, it is clear too many Americans are so dumb they actually think 2+2=1. ".

    With enemies this stoopid, nobody needs friends LMAO.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2024/...ng-media-tour/
    Hakeem Jeffries would be among "the Dems" that I cited deserving credit and thanks for pulling us out of another Repub Once In 100 Years Disaster and Massive Jobs Destruction and into another Great Dem Economic Recovery, Expansion and Jobs Creation.

    See, he only became the Dem Leader in the House on January 3, 2023, after Nancy or was it Nikki stepped down from that position and after virtually all of the heavy lifting and political risk taking to achieve that historic positive result had been shouldered and assumed by the Dems whose leadership I mentioned by name.

    Since then, the new Repub "leadership" has, predictably, been only about inflicting economy-damaging brinkmanship threats to shut down the government, not pay the bills they racked up like the deadbeat Repubs they are, take innumerable votes just to choose a "leader", kick out that "leader" it took them innumerable votes to choose, pick a ChristoFacist "leader" to replace that one, linger and drool over nude photos of someone who never ran for or held elected office and do endless but as yet fruitless research on what the hell they can pitch for a reason to Impeach President Hunter Biden.

    Consequently, all of the most meaningful gains for the American people related to the House of Representatives came to a screeching halt the moment the Repub Getting Smaller and Smaller All The Time Pink Tinkle House Majority took over.

    And, therefore, Hakeem was only able to participate as a rank and file Dem in cleaning up the colossal mess and historically putrid "fumes" left behind from one of if not THE worst economic and national security results produced by Trump before he became Leader of the Dems in the House.

    Yeah, regarding your link, it appears that $83 Millon + $5 Milloon + Daily Interest on those Millions might finally be enough to keep the name of Trump's sexual assault victim, the court clerk, the judge, the judge's family etc out of his piehole for a while. Since that judgement was handed down Trump has dutifully and obediently not uttered in public or written their names in vain as he simply could not prevent himself from doing previously.

  11. #14083

    What no Jew hating HAKEEM you typically RACIST leftard LMAO

    "LOL. I swear I heard some Repub Trumper Numbskull in Michigan open his piehole in front of a reporter's microphone and proudly announce he was going to vote for Trump over Biden because, "I know Trump will do the best thing for the American worker. ".

    Oh my God. The dude was so ignorant he apparently has no idea that Trump's classic Repub economic policies and stewardship wiped out Tens of Millions of American Worker Jobs, finally ending his godawful so-called presidency with fewer American Worker Jobs than existed when Obama-Biden handed him better economic conditions than any Repub administration has ever handed an incoming Dem!

    Even by this point in Trump's so-called presidency, before his 2018,2019 and 2020 economic and national security policies and stewardship created Trump's Pandemic, his and his idiot Repub Majority in Congress' one and only godawful economic "stimulus" legislation, costing an addition to the defict of $Trillions, had created FEWER American Worker jobs with it than in the three prior years without it!

    This is not an election year so much as it is a USA national I. Q. Test with the equivalent of one simple question;.

    Does 2+2=4 or does 2+2=1?

    If Trump wins the election or rather is appointed by the Electoral College, it is clear too many Americans are so dumb they actually think 2+2=1. ".

    With enemies this stoopid, nobody needs friends LMAO.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2024/...ng-media-tour/

  12. #14082
    Quote Originally Posted by CheckMate1  [View Original Post]
    Not going to justify or dismiss this article.

    I feel for the 1% of the population going through this, the individual, their families, the doctors who have to advise them of options. Why I feel this topic should not be political is that this subset of the population deserves to be able to go through this process privately. What I mean by this is, whether they're going to go to the bathroom, or being on a youth team sports not "designated" for them is inconsequential to US. But for whatever reasons, some of us feel like our chances / freedom is being taken away.

    How? Because a straight person like to be in a public bathroom not having to, by chance, look at another human going to the bathroom who don't look like them. We did this already with other differences for many years in the US, South Africa, and Germany, and other countries.

    Unlike people who are invested in this subject, to be soooo outraged by the thought of someone who isn't like them is SHARING a public spot, I don't care. I don't remember a single face or body type of anyone I have ever shared a bathroom in public with. I like to do my thing, wash my hands, and get the hell out ASAP. But for those who are hung up, what are you doing in there? Why is your mind wondering?
    I think, the gist of "bathroom" concern is about kids or would've been if a certain group of politicians hadn't put it on their banner. Grownups can handle sharing a bathroom, which is evidenced by the ease Americans get used to unisex restrooms in France, not even mentioning all kinds of public joint "setups" in Thailand, Japan, Cambodia and other countries. Hell, Paris has street urinals now with pretty much no cover at all.

    For schools, on the other hand, it's tricky. I understand parents who want school restrooms segregated. I would've felt the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by CheckMate1  [View Original Post]
    #3, it creates an unfair advantage for transgenders to compete with a girls in high school. It is also unfair advantage for girls to likely be chosen for cheerleading squads over transgenders. Ask yourself, of these two examples, which will more likely happen?

    Raw stats: 1. 4% of pop between 13-17 identify themselves as trans; 34% participates in sports. Total 13-17 in US is about 300,000. This means about 1428 kids who are trans that potentially would participate, which comes to about 28 total per state divided evenly among 50 states (states are not equal in real life). Let's say I'm wrong and you double the number. Your advocating that a state (any) can't accommodate 60 people.

    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...united-states/
    Just to be clear, I'm not against transgenders (when transitions are truly justified), but imagine that you have to compete with someone who's a priori faster and stronger than you are. How can you accommodate trans (even if there are very few of them) that wouldn't hurt competing female athletes who don't naturally possess these abilities? Is it even possible at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by CheckMate1  [View Original Post]
    To me, the article demonstrates how hard it is go through life "not Normal". Decisions you and I never need to think about or have to make. And then, how some among us go out of our ways to make it even harder on their lives just trying to live a "normal" life. I say this for black people who have to live through segregations, jews through the nazi era, gays throughout history, and now transgenders.
    It's very hard to be different, no questions about that. And kids especially can be cruel beyond belief.

  13. #14081

    Not normal aka crazy as fuck LMAO

    "Not going to justify or dismiss this article.

    I feel for the 1% of the population going through this, the individual, their families, the doctors who have to advise them of options. Why I feel this topic should not be political is that this subset of the population deserves to be able to go through this process privately. What I mean by this is, whether they're going to go to the bathroom, or being on a youth team sports not "designated" for them is inconsequential to US. But for whatever reasons, some of us feel like our chances / freedom is being taken away.

    How? Because a straight person like to be in a public bathroom not having to, by chance, look at another human going to the bathroom who don't look like them. We did this already with other differences for many years in the US, South Africa, and Germany, and other countries.

    Unlike people who are invested in this subject, to be soooo outraged by the thought of someone who isn't like them is SHARING a public spot, I don't care. I don't remember a single face or body type of anyone I have ever shared a bathroom in public with. I like to do my thing, wash my hands, and get the hell out ASAP. But for those who are hung up, what are you doing in there? Why is your mind wondering?

    #2, that we are "protecting" kids from Pedos. Majority of Pedos are straight people, just like all statistically aspects of life, the majority of people are straight therefore majority of all crimes, successes, bankcruptcies, divorces, and achievements are because of them. I'm cool with fixing problems, but don't create issues to scapegoat people who are unlikely to defend themselves.

    #3, it creates an unfair advantage for transgenders to compete with a girls in high school. It is also unfair advantage for girls to likely be chosen for cheerleading squads over transgenders. Ask yourself, of these two examples, which will more likely happen?

    Raw stats: 1. 4% of pop between 13-17 identify themselves as trans; 34% participates in sports. Total 13-17 in US is about 300,000. This means about 1428 kids who are trans that potentially would participate, which comes to about 28 total per state divided evenly among 50 states (states are not equal in real life). Let's say I'm wrong and you double the number. Your advocating that a state (any) can't accommodate 60 people.

    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...united-states/

    To me, the article demonstrates how hard it is go through life "not Normal". Decisions you and I never need to think about or have to make. And then, how some among us go out of our ways to make it even harder on their lives just trying to live a "normal" life. I say this for black people who have to live through segregations, jews through the nazi era, gays throughout history, and now transgenders."

  14. #14080

    Too late.

    Quote Originally Posted by EihTooms  [View Original Post]
    So there is hope for Trumpers and Wingers to realize their tragic mistake and turn their lives around, too.

    Good news.
    Nah, only children and young adults can change. For wingers the damage has been done.

  15. #14079

    Article entitled OPINION

    Not going to justify or dismiss this article.

    I feel for the 1% of the population going through this, the individual, their families, the doctors who have to advise them of options. Why I feel this topic should not be political is that this subset of the population deserves to be able to go through this process privately. What I mean by this is, whether they're going to go to the bathroom, or being on a youth team sports not "designated" for them is inconsequential to US. But for whatever reasons, some of us feel like our chances / freedom is being taken away.

    How? Because a straight person like to be in a public bathroom not having to, by chance, look at another human going to the bathroom who don't look like them. We did this already with other differences for many years in the US, South Africa, and Germany, and other countries.

    Unlike people who are invested in this subject, to be soooo outraged by the thought of someone who isn't like them is SHARING a public spot, I don't care. I don't remember a single face or body type of anyone I have ever shared a bathroom in public with. I like to do my thing, wash my hands, and get the hell out ASAP. But for those who are hung up, what are you doing in there? Why is your mind wondering?

    #2, that we are "protecting" kids from Pedos. Majority of Pedos are straight people, just like all statistically aspects of life, the majority of people are straight therefore majority of all crimes, successes, bankcruptcies, divorces, and achievements are because of them. I'm cool with fixing problems, but don't create issues to scapegoat people who are unlikely to defend themselves.

    #3, it creates an unfair advantage for transgenders to compete with a girls in high school. It is also unfair advantage for girls to likely be chosen for cheerleading squads over transgenders. Ask yourself, of these two examples, which will more likely happen?

    Raw stats: 1. 4% of pop between 13-17 identify themselves as trans; 34% participates in sports. Total 13-17 in US is about 300,000. This means about 1428 kids who are trans that potentially would participate, which comes to about 28 total per state divided evenly among 50 states (states are not equal in real life). Let's say I'm wrong and you double the number. Your advocating that a state (any) can't accommodate 60 people.

    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...united-states/

    To me, the article demonstrates how hard it is go through life "not Normal". Decisions you and I never need to think about or have to make. And then, how some among us go out of our ways to make it even harder on their lives just trying to live a "normal" life. I say this for black people who have to live through segregations, jews through the nazi era, gays throughout history, and now transgenders.

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