Chat Rooms & Pen Pals

[PinaLove]

The number of times I have seen sweet bar girls that I screw wearing a condom to then see them a few months later pregnant. They go home and are happy I guess.

[Soapy Smith]

So someone working on one of those billion dollar programs in Afghanistan or Iran stops into Jules bar in Dubai and the program can be canceled? (Never happened as far as I know but I do know people fired for that by the contractor citing that clause.) I agree it should happen for what Oxfam allowed to happen in Haiti but a basically retaln p4 p activity conducted far away from and not involving the program is a little far fetched don't you think?

But basically driven by domestic politics, the need to please particular interest groups, and totally disconnected from circumstances on the ground in the developing world. I don't know where it stands now, but during the administration of G. W. Bush, conservative religious groups were able to push the abstinence only policy such that foreign aid contractors in Africa were forbidden to offer even informational programs about condoms and contraceptives.

Some American faith-based NGOs walk a careful tightrope in their programs. A large bulk of their fund-raising comes from collection programs in domestic churches, so their marketing has to be very careful. World Vision is an interesting example. They play down their actual involvement in family planning in developing countries, but in Africa they are quietly dispensing condoms, and maybe elsewhere too. It is not discussed in any of their fund-raising promotions.

[Kabul Guy]

....
Finally, three cheers for USAID's achievement in attending to both streams of anti-sex work moralistsmainstream feminists and religious moralists.

.....

Did you know that it is a standard clause in all USAID contracts and grants that no one hired by the program can engage in any sort of p4 p?

If caught the contract or grant can be terminated.

So someone working on one of those billion dollar programs in Afghanistan or Iran stops into Jules bar in Dubai and the program can be canceled? (Never happened as far as I know but I do know people fired for that by the contractor citing that clause.) I agree it should happen for what Oxfam allowed to happen in Haiti but a basically retaln p4 p activity conducted far away from and not involving the program is a little far fetched don't you think?

[Kabul Guy]

Hey KB, good comment. I suppose you may have come across the name Sharmila Parmanand if you've read about sex work here. This is a decent interview with her, https://www.pampubliko.com/pampublik...e-philippines/ . It presents a lot of the biases, even ones that many don't typically considered biased, for example calling a sex worker a "victim" who's been "rescued" betrays a bias. Heck, even "sex worker" is a biased term to some who say sex workers are always coerced (beyond pimps to patriarchy and capitalism) and therefore can never consent. She also mentions the power mismatch between sex workers and those who purport to advocate on their behalf and provide them services. And then there's the sticky issue of donors' money.

I remember a couple years ago in Canada when there was a debate on the criminality of prostitution. (Was not covered in the laws but a lot of activity surrounding prostitution was illegal, now it has been criminalized) The spoof was about a old profession, practiced in many communities around the country, mainly by women, involved clients coming to the woman's home, sometimes to the clients home and sometimes to places where the providers and clients would all come. It generally happened behind closed doors but everyone in the house and neighborhood knew what was happening.

The women were forced into the activity by financial concerns, by limited options and sometimes by their male partners who wanted them to make money on the side.

The punch line was that they were piano teachers.

[Soapy Smith]

The authors of this article are detached from reality.

(snip)

pinays are generally independent. They enjoy sex, they enjoy money and they enjoy you.

Actually, the idea of "agency" that this woman is describing implies that these women do make independent decisions. A central argument from her is that they have much greater agency than what is assumed by the anti-trafficking community, who see them totally victimized and totally controlled by pimps and traffickers. This woman is arguing that the anti-trafficking community is actually victimizing sex workers by treating them as though they can't think and act for themselves. I don't think she would have a problem with the idea that some of these women enjoy sex, some enjoy money, and some enjoy the men they are with. And the interviewers seem to get her argument; they are not disagreeing with her. I suspect they sought her out specifically because she is known for the position she takes in opposition to the anti-trafficking community. Maybe Hutsori's link led you to a different interview than the one I read.

If this woman and her interviewers are liberals, and I suspect they are, they sort of belie the notion of a monolithic liberal media that all think in lockstep.

[Nice Guy 99]

Thanks for this link. For me I liked this paragraph.

I think this is the sex market in which I dwell. Girls whom are 30 years younger than me, happy to hang out with me and of course they do not label themselves as prostie. The test is always "stop the money and stop the honey".

Guys it's simple. Don't listen to the lefty journalists. Most pinays like to fuck and when the meet their first western guy who creates orgasms by licking their pussy, stimulates things they never thought of by licking their assholes and having anal sex. Well it's a whole new world for them.

I've turned out a number of pinays. Roger has experienced one and I'm sure he'll vouch. The authors of this article are detached from reality. Unlike FSU girls who may be totally controlled and exploited, pinays are generally independent. They enjoy sex, they enjoy money and they enjoy you. Deal with it liberal press.

[PinaLove]

Hey KB, good comment. I suppose you may have come across the name Sharmila Parmanand .

Thanks for this link. For me I liked this paragraph.

Sometimes it’s just like, “Oh I want a new phone” or “I would like new shoes.” These cases then show that there is agency in sex work. Of course, I’m also very conscious of not pretending that this is the face of the movement, because within the sex work community, there are hierarchies. And there’s also a lot of resentment among street-based sex workers against the more high-end Internet-based sex workers or students engaging in sex work who come from a position of privilege and are in a better position to negotiate their clients or their hours. But yes, that does happen even in the Philippines. I’ve spoken to several students of private universities who engage in this...

I think this is the sex market in which I dwell. Girls whom are 30 years younger than me, happy to hang out with me and of course they do not label themselves as prostie. The test is always "stop the money and stop the honey".

While breaking up can seem problematic, once they know that the money is no longer flowing their way then they know they must move on.

[Soapy Smith]

Hey KB, good comment. I suppose you may have come across the name Sharmila Parmanand if you've read about sex work here. This is a decent interview with her, https://www.pampubliko.com/pampublik...e-philippines/.

An interesting and encouraging read, a sort of vanguard viewpoint, but probably also a minority perspective among development service professionals and feminists.

Although Ms. Parmanand's perspective seems thoughtful, I believe there is a glaring omission in the interview: very little discussion of the nature and behavior of users. Ms. Parmanand observed that many decriminalization efforts address only the activities of the sex workers, but not the users. So, if there are few reliable data about sex workersand an urgent need for themwouldn't the same be true for the other side of the exchange? Over the years we have had a few light-hearted discussions about doing such research among ISG participants. There would be several difficulties involved: nobody would ever fund such research, few if any skilled researchers would dare undertake it, and it would be an uphill battle to ever get the research results accepted.

Ms. Parmamand makes the interesting point that testimonials offered by former sex workers are inherently biased in at least two ways: they typically reinforce the "rescuing" institution's values, and within the sex worker community there are lessons shared about what to say in order to be treated favorably by those who "rescue" or arrest you. The values around the activities of users is perhaps even more of a minefield.

A couple of interesting observations: first, the acknowledgement that a few (emphasis on few) progressive-thinking NGOs are getting ahead of the curve on trafficking, and a few feminists (e. g. , Ms. Parmanand) are beginning to see beyond the "victimization" narrative of their sisters. I think the key idea here is "agency"; that is, that many sex workers in fact make intentional decisions to engage in sex work as a means of livelihood, and, that policies that ignore this reality probably do more (uninformed and unintended) harm than good. So policies that assume they're unwitting victims also eliminate from consideration remedies that actually empower them and keep them safe. It appears this is the subject matter of Ms. Parmamand's doctoral thesis research at Cambridge.

Maybe it's important to consider genuine agency in the activities of users as well, instead of chalking it all up to thinking with the little head, as some in ISG as well as many feminists and religious moralists--are inclined to do. It might be interesting to map out the kinds of meetings and conferences at which Ms. Parmamand is likely to speak, and then show up and pose questions about the lack of data and attributions of agency for users.

One important caveat should be offered: some exploitative traffi--king does occur, and it is important that we not look the other way when it appears.

Finally, three cheers for USAID's achievement in attending to both streams of anti-sex work moralistsmainstream feminists and religious moralists.

Thanks for sharing this, H.

[Hutsori]

entire comment

Hey KB, good comment. I suppose you may have come across the name Sharmila Parmanand if you've read about sex work here. This is a decent interview with her, https://www.pampubliko.com/pampublik...e-philippines/ . It presents a lot of the biases, even ones that many don't typically considered biased, for example calling a sex worker a "victim" who's been "rescued" betrays a bias. Heck, even "sex worker" is a biased term to some who say sex workers are always coerced (beyond pimps to patriarchy and capitalism) and therefore can never consent. She also mentions the power mismatch between sex workers and those who purport to advocate on their behalf and provide them services. And then there's the sticky issue of donors' money.

[Kabul Guy]

Thanks for your attention to the rigorous research standards. The forum definitely needs it. I think there will be some members whom will not like the results.
.....

I am an engineer so I am a number guy who wants to see real data, gathered with no preconceived notion or bias be properly analyzed with due attention to the limitations and practical realities of the whole process to produce useful information.

Sometimes I want to information to make decisions, other times I just like the process because it is somewhat intellectually shiny. Either way I take great exception to any researcher who starts a study already "knowing" the outcome. Over time I think I have developed a knack for shifting the signal out of the noise. However that could just be hubris in my old age.

The sex trade is a perfect example. Some people think it is wrong and immoral, and that is their right to believe that but when they then undertake a "study" to "prove" that they are the ones that are IMHO immoral. Of course the other is just as bad, people who undertake a study to prove that the sex trade is all beneficial and a good thing in every respect are just as beneath my contempt.

I believe, and this is based on a lot of googling and reading the actual source studies, (in construction camps you often have too much time on your hands and need any entertainment and distraction you can get LOL) that whether or not the sex business is harmful depends on why you are participating in it, what you and your family and your culture believe about it and how long you stay in the business.

If there is to be any regulation then that regulation should be to ensure that it is as safe as possible for both and that anyone participating in the industry does so voluntarily and can enter or leave as they determine suitable for themselves. I. e. Everyone legal age, no forced participation and proper STD education, prevention and treatment practices available to all, etc.

[Mr Enternational]

I meet more girls here whom get married than I've met in my home country. In the past year 2-3 girls that washed into AC, got fucked by me, also found a guy to marry them and whisk them to another country.

Meeting foreigners is still a long term play for many.

And after that? I have a buddy that used to own a bar here in Pattaya. Guys would always come in and whisk the women away. And he would always say that he would be glad when they break up so she can get her ass back to work. I have another friend that is Thai and owns a restaurant and hair salon. She said the same thing happens with her workers; even the ladyboys. But when the guy gets tired of taking care of their asses they send them back though. It seems you are not seeing that part of the process.

[PinaLove]

I'll have to do some searching to see if I can find any non-biased research papers on actual numbers of sex workers here and sex tourists. It could be interesting to see some data..

Thanks for your attention to the rigorous research standards. The forum definitely needs it. I think there will be some members whom will not like the results.

I'm in Angeles most of the time. Over the years I've noticed it is really a 3-6 month tide for many of the girls. Newbies wash in, others wash out, a few a longer term. In any case, there are always newbies.

I meet more girls here whom get married than I've met in my home country. In the past year 2-3 girls that washed into AC, got fucked by me, also found a guy to marry them and whisk them to another country.

Meeting foreigners is still a long term play for many.

[Kabul Guy]

Once in a while you might get a freebie. Usually they are much older into their thirties with a good job or else have game plan to hook you into a long term relationships. I always will give money whether they request or reject saying just go buy some presents for yourself. We all know these girls do not have much money. Just payup!

....

That has been my experience too. I have had several 30 somethings (and older) contact me on Pinalove and Tinder just looking to get laid. They want a foreigner for a couple of reasons, we will not spread the word all around their baragngy that they are easy, we are considered a little on the exotic side by them and they know that we are generally safer than locals for them. Some have returned and been almost regulars, some call every couple months asking of they can come over. Some are fuglies and get turned down too LOL.

They generally refuse cash but I will always at least offer to call a Grab on my account for them or for the regulars I'll buy presents for them.

[Kabul Guy]

....
Does it matter is we are still only sampling less than 3% of the female populations?

Happy days.

PL.

Yes it does if you are using a sample that is heavily weighted into the 3% and extrapolating the findings to the entire population of the country. (I was using sample in the statistical definition of a sample to determine parameters of the population at large.) Rigorous research methodology is to balance the sample so that it is representative of the population at large (or to weight the findings to reflect the differences between the sample and the population.).

No it doesn't is you are just having fun with a few the 3% of the population. (You are using sample in the sense of taking a selection out of the 3% that is offering delights.) You will wear your dick out before you taste all the delights in the 3%.

The numbers are actually better than you indicate. Not all tourists coming here are male sex tourists. Many are families and females (not eliminating females as sex tourists though LOL). You should also factor in the roughly quarter million foreigners who live here (just under 200 k in 2010 so I bumped that up for population growth in last 8 years) . Again not all of these are male mongers, some are in happy stable long term relations and some are like me here for both a good time and a long time.) There is a seasonal variation in tourists arriving here. Some months less than 50 k tourists some months over 600 k.

OTOH you need to account for local mongers. There are lots of them out there. I see them at massage places and read their FR's on other web sites. Usually need google translate.

I'll have to do some searching to see if I can find any non-biased research papers on actual numbers of sex workers here and sex tourists. It could be interesting to see some data.

[Sammon]

Did you get to enjoy some of the univ students renting rooms in your Cebu ex GF, like having a little harem.

Once in a while you might get a freebie. Usually they are much older into their thirties with a good job or else have game plan to hook you into a long term relationships. I always will give money whether they request or reject saying just go buy some presents for yourself. We all know these girls do not have much money. Just payup!

I found a girl in Cebu who was living with many uni students. In the beginning she said she would not arrange. I convinced her by paying her extra. In the end she got me two. These girls always need money. They will do part time only just to support themselves.