Bangkok Reports

[Turgid]

For many years now I have not been able to get it out of my head that mongers who bare back prostitutes already have some vile disease.

[Member #4698]

1. Bareback is more common amongst the locals.

2, Bareback between farangs and prostitutes is more common in other SE Asian countries than it is in LOS.

3. The rest is anecdotal. My experience with, for lack of a better term, high class prostitutes (LOL) in BKK and Pattaya ie Go Go girls and Night Club FL's, without any pre negotiation or mention of it, is roughly 25% of my girls bareback on the 1st night. Out of those I choose who I want to ride bareback. I am not comfortable barebacking with all my girls for one reason or another even when it is available. Repeats are another story: with repeats my bareback percentage rises to about 75% of my girls by the 3rd night and I usually bareback all my willing repeat girls. Again, for prostitutes in other countries, like those in the PI, Indonesia, Cambodia, and Burma, my percentages are higher reaching almost 100% availability with my repeat girls.

Here is a funny story: I had been barebacking one of my regular Nana Go Go girls for a year or two. When I returned to BKK in April 2019, I got together with her again, but this time she insisted that I wear a condom. I asked why and she said she had a farang boyfriend now and only barebacked with him. I laughed and joked, "what about me? So now I am chopped liver just because you have a new boyfriend?" (chopped liver is an old joke from the 60's or 70's - I am sure she did not understand the Johnny Carson humor in it). But she thought about it for a second or two or three and then we barebacked. And everybody was happy.

[Mogwai]

You appear to be naive. Most of the girls in PI, Indonesia and Thailand allow bareback if their price is met.

Well, let me help you find your way back. It isn't "the norm" for tourists in the tourist areas where we monger.

You make it confusing, because originally you replied to Smoothy's post (quoted above) that was about girls in the tourist areas allowing BB with tourists. I don't think anyway that he was talking about locals.

And you wrote 'Bareback sex has been the norm and accepted as "standard service" in the vast majority of Thai brothels, among freelancers, massage shops and every other P4 P option'. Apparently you meant freelancers, massage shops and every other P4 P option CATERING TO THAI MEN, but that was not clear.

[EihTooms]

Uhm, you didn't say it was the norm? You did say that and you even said it has been the norm since forever. But now you suddenly say it was the norm prior to that 1989/1992 promotion? While at the same time you say it's still the norm among Thai men up to the present day?

You have lost me mate.

Well, let me help you find your way back. It isn't "the norm" for tourists in the tourist areas where we monger. I should have included that reference point in my reply to you about it. My bad. It is not "the norm" for me in the way you suggested I should never have a problem getting it by "going with the flow", not asking for it and not saying anything at all about it where we all generally monger. Because I am not Thai and I don't monger in outlying provincial brothels or can pass as a Thai man. But I still say it is "the norm" for Thai men who go to Thai brothels around the country. The part you didn't include in your quote above with regard to "the norm" I was talking about is where I say:

I'll take it further than that. Bareback sex has been the norm and accepted as "standard service" in the vast majority of Thai brothels, among freelancers, massage shops and every other P4P option since forever, even during the briefly and only mildly enforced "100% Condom Use" push by the Thai government in the late 1980's and early 1990's.

How do I know that? Because Thai men are by far the most common customers for Thai hookers and by and large they aren't using condoms.

You see, that's what makes it "the norm" in the country of Thailand but not "the norm" for tourists in places where it has not been provided as "the norm" for various reasons such as in Soi Cowboy, Nana Plaza, Sukhumvit, Soi 4, Patpong, Pattaya, etc. I might even concede that the word "condom" is mentioned more often now in provincial Thai brothels for Thai customers than it was prior to 1989/1992. But I will not concede that those Thai customers have to negotiate their way out of it or offer an extra 500 baht for it the way we farangs generally have to do. In that way, it is still "the norm" for Thai customers with Thai P4P ladies.

It is not nearly as giant a leap from what is "the norm" with regard to BB in most P4P options around the country to getting it in these tourist areas as well as some might think. Asking for it is one way. Going with the flow is another. Offering more money is another. Having a girl repeat over and over that she is willing to provide you with "Everything, up to you, except for this or that" is another.

I would say my rate of success in getting it with willing, above average P4P girls in bars, clubs or on the street is about 60-65% overall when I ask for it or when they offer it. Raise that to 70% plus when I include dating site girls who will at some point ask for help to pay this or that emergency expense. Freelancers in denial, let's say. Not as a requirement for going BB with them. I mean the request for financial help in some way just pops up in the same general vicinity as our having been together. 70% plus is still not "the norm" compared with what the rest of the country is up to. But I believe that makes it "typical fare" for me.

[Mogwai]

By "the norm", which is not what I said, but ok I'll play along, I don't mean it is handed out without asking or done as routinely as the girl removing her shoes. But there is every reason to believe that was the case prior to that 1989/1992 promotion. The whole reason the 1989/1992 "100% Condom Use" idea was promoted for brothels and bars is BECAUSE it was well understood by all that, culturally, Thai men did not use condoms. Do you think there has now been an evolutionary change in the culture where the sons of those Thai men are all diligently stocking up on condoms and taking them everywhere? Or happily accepting them in the brothels?

Bareback sex has been the norm and accepted as "standard service" in the vast majority of Thai brothels, among freelancers, massage shops and every other P4P option since forever, even during the briefly and only mildly enforced "100% Condom Use" push by the Thai government in the late 1980's and early 1990's.

Uhm, you didn't say it was the norm? You did say that and you even said it has been the norm since forever. But now you suddenly say it was the norm prior to that 1989/1992 promotion? While at the same time you say it's still the norm among Thai men up to the present day?

You have lost me mate.

[EihTooms]

That is indeed not the truth and yet we don't see many reports here about STD-infested girls. The risks of barebacking are often exaggerated.

I think most post-1989/1992 "100% Condom Use" promotion girls, this generation, are not nearly as insistent on condoms as their moms and grandmothers were for the reason you allude to there; They have probably never met a lady who got HIV or any serious, life-altering STD from a man, whether he is her boyfriend or her customer. Their grandmothers probably had never met anyone who fit that profile either, even the ones in the midst of the "100% Condom Use" promotion. But it was a powerful scary story to tell. Among gay men, their gay friends and relatives, ladyboys, male prostitutes and IV drug user customers, yes I am sure there was plenty of empirical evidence that increased condom use produced a decline in HIV acquisition.

But among non IV drug using women who primarily had vaginal sex with straight men, the incidence of HIV acquisition was probably extremely rare even then. I doubt many Thai women in or out of the business ever met such a woman. That doesn't mean they don't hear and aren't compelled to believe some of the scary horror stories. We all love to hear and believe those things. But when they have never met such a woman and neither has anyone else in their circle met such a woman, it is hard to prevent a girl from agreeing to BB for a little extra cash in the deal.

Again, talking about the "fear of disease" aspect of it. Fear of getting pregnant and having to explain why the baby doesn't look anything like your live-in boyfriend, husband or sponsor is a different matter all together.

[Member #4733]

practices that put others (both punters and working girls) at risk.

The risks of barebacking are often exaggerated.

I cut the citations a bit short but clearly two opposing views. It is mostly about statistics. If everybody uses a condom the risk of spreading diseases is low but not zero. Even the use of a condom doesn't bring the risk of transmitting a disease to zero. A broken condom is an obvious reason but touching each others genitals can transmit some diseases as well, for example. I once had a disease because a girl reused a condom! So, that's why I like to bring my own. If nobody uses a condom the risk of spreading diseases is much higher but not 100%. For example: both partners do not have a disease. What is actually happening in the population at large is that the people using condoms are protecting the barebackers. As long as there's only few people barebacking the risk is low due to the large majority using condoms. That has an equivalent to vaccination percentages. If a sufficiently large proportion of the population is vaccinated against a transmittable disease the few people that do not have the vaccination are protected by the overall vaccination grade. About 95% or higher is usually considered safe in Holland. Personally I like to be as safe as I can be and use a condom. So both fellow members are right in their own way, but without much substantiation.

One more thing about AIDS. Heterosexual men send their fluids and are not at high risk. But it is not 0%. Remarks about it are often dramatized or are playing down the risk too much. Just use statistics and take your pick. What side do you want to be on.

BBBJ is not without risk either. I had gonorrhea from a girl that actually put my dig too deep in her mouth, touching her throat while doing it. That can transmit the disease.

[Smoothy]

Are you taken to be a Thai man when you go into those brothels?

I have never seen a Thai man buying a condom in a 7-11 or a drug store.

Honestly, I also have never seen a Thai man guy condoms. I've never seen an Indonesian man buy them either. I used to go to the brothels with the local guys from the office and I would always have the driver stop off to buy condoms. The local guys never wanted to buy them. And back then, the brothels did not provide condoms. I asked the local guys why they didn't want a condom and they told me they thought it was safe having sex without one and they liked the feeling better. Since then, condoms have been introduced in the brothels, but a tip can easily have the condom thrown aside. I'm not condoning going without a condom, just stating fact.

[EihTooms]

Do you think they have to bring their own condoms when they visit a brothel? Your statement that bareback is the norm in Thailand is just BS. I agree that it is available on a larger scale than many people think, but it is certainly not the norm.

If it is the norm, as you state, then it should be easy for you to 'go with the flow'. But we all know you hardly ever do that. You want to know in advance if BBFS + CIP is on the menu. You make that clear in almost every other post (which to be honest is getting a bit annoying).

By "the norm", which is not what I said, but ok I'll play along, I don't mean it is handed out without asking or done as routinely as the girl removing her shoes. But there is every reason to believe that was the case prior to that 1989/1992 promotion. The whole reason the 1989/1992 "100% Condom Use" idea was promoted for brothels and bars is BECAUSE it was well understood by all that, culturally, Thai men did not use condoms. Do you think there has now been an evolutionary change in the culture where the sons of those Thai men are all diligently stocking up on condoms and taking them everywhere? Or happily accepting them in the brothels?

And, even though that turned out to be a short-lived promotion, many bars, brothels and girls were only too happy to turn lemons into lemonade and use that concept as an Up Selling tool to give themselves a raise. Bars and brothels could hire girls easier because, after all, they were now emboldened to sell only the "sizzle" and not "the steak. " They could promise the same as before but, "Oh, you wanted the actual meat on this plate? No can do. Work that out with your server."

And for the ladies, same deal. They could then say "no" to something most of their customers thought they had locked in at the going rate but were now having to offer more money to get it. I have no doubt that Up Selling tool is far more useful and effective with Farangs in the Farang Red Light Districts than it is with Thais in the Thai brothels all over the rest of the country.

For all I know, that was the plan with the Soi 4 girl I was reporting about here. But I didn't bite. I didn't offer any more money. I felt the same 1,500 baht I'd paid for each of the previous sessions was high enough to pay for that particular girl.

[Mogwai]

Anyone who thinks these girls always use condoms is kidding themselves.

I also used to think they always used condoms, but now i realize that is just not the truth.

That is indeed not the truth and yet we don't see many reports here about STD-infested girls. The risks of barebacking are often exaggerated.

[Mogwai]

Are you taken to be a Thai man when you go into those brothels?
I have never seen a Thai man buying a condom in a 7-11 or a drug store.

Do you think they have to bring their own condoms when they visit a brothel? Your statement that bareback is the norm in Thailand is just BS. I agree that it is available on a larger scale than many people think, but it is certainly not the norm.

If it is the norm, as you state, then it should be easy for you to 'go with the flow'. But we all know you hardly ever do that. You want to know in advance if BBFS + CIP is on the menu. You make that clear in almost every other post (which to be honest is getting a bit annoying).

[EihTooms]

Very true. Until the punter says "I don't like to use condom, I will give you 500 baht more if we have sex with no condom. " In that case, the condom is quickly thrown aside. Anyone who thinks these girls always use condoms is kidding themselves.

I also used to think they always used condoms, but now i realize that is just not the truth.

That's about it. In fact, the 1,500 baht I had paid this particular girl the two previous times was no doubt 500 baht more than she usually gets for ST (she never wanted to even discuss LT. imo, another tell about a boyfriend or sponsor). I have never been quoted higher than 1,500 baht by any Soi 4 girl, even the best looking ones that seem to have no problem getting plenty of customers.

I think even Syzygies' higher standard Soi 4 girl was only asking 1,200 baht from him and the customer before him he saw her chatting with. There was apparently no discussion between him and her on the street or in the room about BBFS+CIP. But I'm guessing another 500 baht would do it IF the girl was willing to go Bareback with any customers at all.

[EihTooms]

So, you weasel your way through an ambiguous conversation in the street, not stating clearly what you want (BBFS CIP is not part of typical fare), but only establishing a pretext for what's to come. Then, once in the room, you pressure her into doing unsafe things and risking her health, when she's already committed to the session and locked in with a Farang 2 x her size who might react unpredictably and would certainly kick her out with no money if she refuses? Great plan, sir, what an admirable human being.

Which part of my report on the Soi 4 girl or any other report gives you the impression I ever pressure them into anything in the room? The part where I say, ok no problem, I'll give you travel money?

BBFS+CIP is absolutely the typical fare for me with the girls I take. And the only time I am not pestered for repeats on a daily basis is when I don't bother to ask for their Line ID or agree to give them mine the first time around.

[EihTooms]

No, that is just not true. Condom usage has been high since the AIDS scare in the 1990's. Never 100%, but high. No need to enforce it when you see people around you dying of AIDS; education was sufficient. In Thailand, HIV infection rates were rapidly rising at one point, and then went down due to higher condom use. That's a proven fact unless you prefer some odd conspiracy theory.

I've actually visited quite a few Thai brothels a fair number of times (not just Rachada massage parlors, but the real working-class ones) and I'm not just engaging in mere speculation. Condom use in those places is consistent (and service level rather low overall, but that's a different topic). Seems like you like to believe things which make you feel better about your own practices that put others (both punters and working girls) at risk.

Are you taken to be a Thai man when you go into those brothels?

I have never seen a Thai man buying a condom in a 7-11 or a drug store.

[Crocodilexp]

"Everything. Up to you. I will make you happy! 2 hours. Oh, except butt sex. I don't like. Haha"

Everything? Jing jing? (Really?) No problem about that other thing. I don't like butt sex.

"Jing jing haha"

Great! I like Everything, Up To Me, You Make Me Happy. Ok. I will give you 2,500 baht for that.

"Ok!"

Should the customer then be exceedingly specific with something like, "Oh. You mean Bareback Fucking, no condom is ok for you?" Only if the guy wants to push her into saying No on the street when the strong implication in all its typical Thai style of communication was it would be Yes in the room.

So, you weasel your way through an ambiguous conversation in the street, not stating clearly what you want (BBFS CIP is not part of typical fare), but only establishing a pretext for what's to come. Then, once in the room, you pressure her into doing unsafe things and risking her health, when she's already committed to the session and locked in with a Farang 2 x her size who might react unpredictably and would certainly kick her out with no money if she refuses? Great plan, sir, what an admirable human being.