Dnipropetrovsk

[Doctor_Skank]

Hecker, I'd like to know what city you live in that you think "Kiev offers a lot of opportunities and life quality and entertainment are better than most cities in the West."

Quality of life and comfort are generally much higher in the West, at least the affluent West, however what I have heard from many EE returnees or heard stories from girls who had been abroad for extended periods of time is that if they don't have Slavic friends they get bored and homesick quickly and in particular girls find Western lifestyle stale and boring. People in the West don't have the same carefree abandoned approach to going out as the Slavs do.

[Hecker]

I don't mean the capital cities of the West. I mean the provincial towns where most guys who want to marry ukrainian girls come from. When a girl from Kiev goes there, she will have a true disappointment.

But a girl who lives in a small provincial ukrainian town will not face the same problem. So Kiev girls are more reluctant to abandon Ukraine than do girls in province. Basically marriage agencies seem to employ mostly girls from province.

Anyway the balance matters. How much you give for the relative result if all expenses are taken into account.

For example when I bring a czech girl to me, I spend 1000 euros for 10 days full of sex. If I go to provincial Ukraine, I will have to spend 1500 euros to get the same result but I will bang 3 girls in 10 days.

In Kiev I will have to spend double at least or more. And so on.

You judge the benefit/moneyxtime spent and you act accordingly.

[Cruiser D]

For foreign guys with money to spend, yes.

For local guys with money to spend, yes

For foreigners living in some rat hole left bank apartment, not so much.

For some Ukrainian guys who's idea of going out is hanging out on the street drink beer, umm, no not really.

Yes, for GUYS.

Hecker, I'd like to know what city you live in that you think "Kiev offers a lot of opportunities and life quality and entertainment are better than most cities in the West."

[Ash1001]

Kiev offers a lot of opportunities and life quality and entertainment are better than most cities in the West

Yes, for GUYS.

Most Ukrainian girls would love to live in a Western city where political correctness, male/female pay equality and the near total lack of good looking women will all work massively to their advantage. Their market value will shoot through the roof.

In Kiev she is one of many attractive girls competing for the attention of a tiny number of rich Ukrainian men. In London she will be one of a tiny number of good looking girls in a city full of investment bankers and hedge fund managers.

They're not too dumb not to know this.

[Hecker]

I think the foreigner in Kiev now essentially has 2 options. First is to be a good boy and search seriously for a wife/serious gf. This doesn't necessarily involve spending large amounts of cash (she'll want you to hang on to that for when she's married to you ) but rather time, effort and patience.

But if you want to enjoy the party girls, you may have to take a leaf out of the local biznez dude's book. One key aspect to the way they spend their cash is not so much the amount they chuck around but the fact they don't expect any immediate return - they spend for the fun of it, not to get value for money. Foreigners are always looking for the cheapest flight, hotel room, taxi, restaurant, ho, whatever, and it tends not to create the right impression.

To be both player and frugal spender requires a move to the provinces - see QJump's posts. Or the far out Kiev suburbs, as per LS.

The third alternative is to find a girl who genuinely likes you for yourself. NOT by any means impossible, but then essentially Western standards apply - do you have looks, charm, are you her 'type' etc. etc. (and yes you still end up spending $ or she'll go off you )

The era of cheap encounters with top of the range girls is long gone in Kiev [By way of comparison, I spent last week end in Dallas and on the Friday night in the Living Room bar at W Hotel my friend and I were approached by a super hot 25 yr old blonde who made it known that she was available for room visits for around $200. I took her up on the offer on Sunday. Seriously she could easily match anything in RP, Kiev. PM me and I'll give you her number]

Kiev girls are mostly not available for marriage, more specifically very few girls want to leave Kiev and head for a foreign country. Kiev offers a lot of opportunities and life quality and entertainment are better than most cities in the West. Westerners who married Kiev girls were repeatedely cheated when they got out of town, cause the girls are in constant need of men.

If sb marries a girl from province and brings her to his country, the likelihood is that she will soon realize her value is much higher estimated in western countries and she has much more opportunities. She will have so many offers from other men and so many promises and when she sees first hand the level of appearance of western women, she will realize that it is better to leave her husband, she will have used him as a pivot to get an even better one in the new land of greater opportunities. So the husband will end to have spent thousands only to get an early divorce if he has married a girl much younger and prettier than him.

A player is always a player in Kiev or province. What is different are the expenses needed in the one city vs the other. Girls perceive foreigner as player in Kiev and as future groom in province. The other possibility is sponsor.

Girls used as fuckbodies, the old army of desperate girls whose only dream would be a hot night with a foreigner without hoping for sth more are not available anymore. They exist but they are not available to foreign tourist.

[Ash1001]

I think the foreigner in Kiev now essentially has 2 options. First is to be a good boy and search seriously for a wife/serious gf. This doesn't necessarily involve spending large amounts of cash (she'll want you to hang on to that for when she's married to you ) but rather time, effort and patience.

But if you want to enjoy the party girls, you may have to take a leaf out of the local biznez dude's book. One key aspect to the way they spend their cash is not so much the amount they chuck around but the fact they don't expect any immediate return - they spend for the fun of it, not to get value for money. Foreigners are always looking for the cheapest flight, hotel room, taxi, restaurant, ho, whatever, and it tends not to create the right impression.

To be both player and frugal spender requires a move to the provinces - see QJump's posts. Or the far out Kiev suburbs, as per LS.

The third alternative is to find a girl who genuinely likes you for yourself. NOT by any means impossible, but then essentially Western standards apply - do you have looks, charm, are you her 'type' etc. etc. (and yes you still end up spending $ or she'll go off you )

The era of cheap encounters with top of the range girls is long gone in Kiev [By way of comparison, I spent last week end in Dallas and on the Friday night in the Living Room bar at W Hotel my friend and I were approached by a super hot 25 yr old blonde who made it known that she was available for room visits for around $200. I took her up on the offer on Sunday. Seriously she could easily match anything in RP, Kiev. PM me and I'll give you her number]

[Hecker]

Hecker, that's a very useful source. Thanks.

But I would not be to sure about how to interpret the numbers. (I am a professional economist). First, the monthly increases are absolutely unbelievable. Average wages did not go from 2576 to 3045 in the three months from Jan-Apr 2008. There are a dozen reasons govt statistics may be off the wall. That's not your fault, but it's true. If wages were really rising that fast, we would see the prices in McDonald's going up every week.

Second, the relative numbers may be more useful. Places like Ternopil are showing wages less than half those in Kiev city.

I am not economist but I think they do some kind of rounding numbers I do not know how it is called.For example at the end of 2007(December 2007) the average salary in Kiev was rounded to 3000 grivnya,os they had to reduce it again in January 2008 in order to make the average of year close to real wages.I cannot express it exactly,anyway what matters is that official wages are now 50% up in places like Western Ukraine in comparison to what they were 1 year ago the same period.

If you visit the cities,the picture you get is in straight correlation to official wages,Ternopil looks definitely poorer than Lvov,it looks like Lvov one year ago and Lvov looks poorer than Kiev,like Kiev 2 years ago.This is what official statistics describe.

Dnipro looks also poorer than Kiev and has less luxury cars on street than Lvov and more Ladas than Lvov.This is in contrast to the higher official wages and lower unemployment in Dnipro than in Lvov,however statistics do not take into account money flowing into from immigrants a lot of whom working in EU countries come from Western Ukraine,so their money sent home maybe responsible for some unexpected pictures.

[Moliere]

OK, I will give you some hardcore statistics.

http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua

You see there that average salary in Kiev has reached 2942 grivnya in March which is 650$.

Hecker, that's a very useful source. Thanks.

But I would not be to sure about how to interpret the numbers. (I am a professional economist). First, the monthly increases are absolutely unbelievable. Average wages did not go from 2576 to 3045 in the three months from Jan-Apr 2008. There are a dozen reasons govt statistics may be off the wall. That's not your fault, but it's true. If wages were really rising that fast, we would see the prices in McDonald's going up every week.

Second, the relative numbers may be more useful. Places like Ternopil are showing wages less than half those in Kiev city.

[Bez Bezarra]

They also don't seem to very agreeable to living in the west, but how can they expect me to make $100K working over there, besides, its no place to raise a family, and the hell if I'm gonna live through those winters.

Getting a fiance visa is even harder now, about $3000 and a minimum of 2 years waiting for the paperwork to go through Texas. Of course, if they were Haitian, it would be so easy.

[Hecker]

Just a thought, but perhaps one of the reasons Ukrainian girls aren't jumping at foreigners the way some would expect after looking at the demographics and economics of the region is because they've figured out 2 things:

1) we only want sex
2) after sex with them, we will dump them to have sex with their sister

OK, a third thing.

3) When it comes right down to it, we are pretty cheap.

We may spring for a dinner or two or pay for drinks at the club, which is good enough to certainly find the occasional taker, but the average Ukrainian girl is looking to get married by the time she is 22. I'm not talking about girls on the club circuit who will happily take "donations" from anybody, but rather about more average girls with average dreams, who make up the vast majority of our target audience. Our reputation as marriage material has taken a hit in the last 10 years of sex tourism, particularly for young(er) guys under 40. With a few exceptions, we really don't spend THAT much money on them, certainly not on tangible things that really improve their lives.

I have no idea if what I have just written is true in any way, but it seems plausible.

In my opinion it really is best to approach them with something else in your repertoire than "I am a foreigner, I am different and exotic". That will come to play in your favor anyway at some point, you have to address other things first. After all, they are just girls... and girls are pretty basic when it comes right down to it.If she's one of those, you've already won half the battle. Ukrainians is still quite pro-Western in comparison with Russians, not that it really matters to girls though. Thankfully they really don't care much about politics.

There are two kinds of foreigners.The foreigners who come to find a bride and the ones who come only to fuck.The latter are commonly described as sex tourists.

The girls try to find out in what category their acquaintances belong,so they tend to use some shit tests.

Indeed a whole lot of foreigners still marry ukrainian girls,so many of them take the risk.In province they are supposed to be married at a very young age,almost all beautiful ones are already married by age 20.The leftovers are either hard to bed or uglier or have some mental,personality disorder or her bf turned to be alcoholic and loser.

The real problem is that if you do not make serious promises to a girl after sex and within the first 6 months of acquaintance,the likelihood is that you will lose her if you do not come to her city often.

[Hecker]

Hecker, the "average" salary in Kiev is $650 per month if your sample consists of people with good professional jobs working for foreign firms. Once you include students, recent arrivals, shop workers, bar girls and the temporarily jobless in the mean estimation sample you certainly won't get $650 per month.

For example, one of my friends in Kiev manages a visa processing outsourcing operation for EU countries and pays $450 pm for fluent English speaking graduates. They're pretty happy to be earning this.

And let's suppose some young chick is managing to earn $650 per month, after basic living costs of say $400, how much is left over to go out and party? A good night out with dinner, drinks and nightclub will cost $100 at least.

The question is, are we going to supply it or is some local Uke dude?

OK, I will give you some hardcore statistics.

http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua

You see there that average salary in Kiev has reached 2942 grivnya in March which is 650$.

[Doctor_Skank]

And let's suppose some young chick is managing to earn $650 per month, after basic living costs of say $400, how much is left over to go out and party? A good night out with dinner, drinks and nightclub will cost $100 at least.

The question is, are we going to supply it or is some local Uke dude?

Even though all Ukrainian girls ideally want a rich Slavic guy, the reality is that these men are very few and far between. A good second choice for an ambitious girl might be a Westerner who can take her to fancy clubs and restaurants (even though he can't stretch to buying her a car or an apartment )

Just a thought, but perhaps one of the reasons Ukrainian girls aren't jumping at foreigners the way some would expect after looking at the demographics and economics of the region is because they've figured out 2 things:

1) we only want sex
2) after sex with them, we will dump them to have sex with their sister

OK, a third thing.

3) When it comes right down to it, we are pretty cheap.

We may spring for a dinner or two or pay for drinks at the club, which is good enough to certainly find the occasional taker, but the average Ukrainian girl is looking to get married by the time she is 22. I'm not talking about girls on the club circuit who will happily take "donations" from anybody, but rather about more average girls with average dreams, who make up the vast majority of our target audience. Our reputation as marriage material has taken a hit in the last 10 years of sex tourism, particularly for young(er) guys under 40. With a few exceptions, we really don't spend THAT much money on them, certainly not on tangible things that really improve their lives.

I have no idea if what I have just written is true in any way, but it seems plausible.

In my opinion it really is best to approach them with something else in your repertoire than "I am a foreigner, I am different and exotic". That will come to play in your favor anyway at some point, you have to address other things first. After all, they are just girls... and girls are pretty basic when it comes right down to it.

If she has some interest in the English language and Western ways - so much the better.

If she's one of those, you've already won half the battle. Ukrainians is still quite pro-Western in comparison with Russians, not that it really matters to girls though. Thankfully they really don't care much about politics.

[Ash1001]

Hecker, the "average" salary in Kiev is $650 per month if your sample consists of people with good professional jobs working for foreign firms. Once you include students, recent arrivals, shop workers, bar girls and the temporarily jobless in the mean estimation sample you certainly won't get $650 per month.

For example, one of my friends in Kiev manages a visa processing outsourcing operation for EU countries and pays $450 pm for fluent English speaking graduates. They're pretty happy to be earning this.

And let's suppose some young chick is managing to earn $650 per month, after basic living costs of say $400, how much is left over to go out and party? A good night out with dinner, drinks and nightclub will cost $100 at least.

The question is, are we going to supply it or is some local Uke dude?

[Romano V]

Dnipro is still a good place for non-pros, when i ws in my apartment close to Karl Marx street the girls called me directly to my fat to do a meeting jusk ask them to join you in front of the Mac Donald on the place who has the big statue of Lenin and a big screen. They will be here for the meeting of course because girls in this town are serious. Compared to Karkhov who has an actually average salary of 210 euros it's a city of more 1 million of people too with a great chance to have a freebie i think more easy than Moldova where girl are afraid about foreigners. Girls of Dnipro will jump of you either if you are a foreigners and maybe in Zaporojie too but there is a lot of pollution.

[Hecker]

Curiously, the petro boom may have the unexpected effect of making Ukrainian girls MORE interested in foreigners. Despite the surge in commodity prices - which has enabled some biznez types to add another Maybach or two to their fleet - middle class salaries in Kiev remain around $500 pm at best, which will just about cover the rent on an apartment with little left over.

As the gilded elite indulge themselves ever more extravagantly, most girls will realise they've been left behind.

Even though all Ukrainian girls ideally want a rich Slavic guy, the reality is that these men are very few and far between. A good second choice for an ambitious girl might be a Westerner who can take her to fancy clubs and restaurants (even though he can't stretch to buying her a car or an apartment )

If she has some interest in the English language and Western ways - so much the better.

Actually average salary in Kiev has now exceeded 3000 grivnya which is 650$ or 420 euro. The wages in province are on average 1700 grivnya with Dnipro, Donetsk almost at 2000 grivnya, that is average wages stand now at 375$ or 240 euro.

Last year at the same period the wages were at 1200 grivnya on average, so they have increased about 40%, and so has the difficulty for mongers as well. Of course part of the increase is due to decline of dollar value to which grivnya is connected. If we suppose that euro remained stable in the last year, the wages in Ukraine have increased from 40 euro in 1999 to 80 euro in 2003 to 120 euro in 2005 and 240 euro now. So they are now 6 times more than 1999, 3 times more than 2003 and 100% higher than in 2005. However the difficulty as I feel it does not vary according to wages measured in euro but according to them measured in grivnya or dollars even if the latter is devalued.

So in dollars the wages have increased from 45$ in 1999 to 375$ now, that is a 8 times increase. In 2003 the wages were 85$, so there is 5 times increase from then, at 2005 they stood at 150$, so they have increased 2.5 times from then.

This has had a considerable effect on girls' attitude and expenses. Actually expenses vary according to inflation rate which is almost 10% in the last year and almost double in my opinion in luxury products and accomodation. Many things cost a lot more in Ukraine than in the West. Actually the same things always cost more and there are only substitudes to be found which cost the same but have lower quality. So this year you have to pay 20% more in restaurants, accomodation, dates etc to get girls which will be probably be 40% more arrogant and demanding or get girls 40% less beautiful in comparison to last year.

Actually girls' availability in my opinion varies mainly according to unemployment rate which has remained stable in Ukraine in last years in 8%. The other factor is the wages. However the wages mostly determine the girls' attitude,behaviour and expectations while unemployment determines their availability, if they are ready to sleep with you. You see in Lugansk an unemployment about 9% while in Dnipro it is 3-4%. This means that a lot more girls are available in Lugansk although the population factor favours Dnipro (Dnipro has 2.5 times more population). Let's say unemployment increases girls availability by a factor multiplied by 2 while population is in straight relationship to girls' availability. So the latter is high in Kiev due to population alone which is 5 times more than Lugansk.

Anyway all this is just assumptions. There are other factors involved such as degree of emigration to big cities which increases considerably the availability since it creates a population of low salaried or underemployed girls and strips off the small provincial towns of some important resources. (actually some of them seem like abandoned, like only old people have remained).

To estimate the degree of emigration and its effect we need another method, however this is decisive for the girls' availability in Kiev which is higher than level of unemployment and average wages would allow it to be foreseen.