2007 Thai Women - Opinions & Advice

[Old Thai Hand]

OTH, I have long been well aware of every detail you mentioned in this last report (and who isn't?), with the one exception of the term 'jek'. Even in that case, Thai colleagues have oft described to me the phenomenon of dislike of more recent Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants relative to older echelons, though I had forgotten the specific pejoratives used.

I do appreciate your report however - quite a well written summary. I only object to your assumption that this common knowledge is somehow an insider's insight.

I never claimed it was insider insight. But, I doubt that it is common knowledge on this board. I will also add, as I have mentioned in the past that the identity of those who hold true power in this country is not generally common knowledge even among Thais.

[Bumholes1]

I have to ask about the going rate of a dowry, I know it depends on what the family consider a fare payment. It's just when I was in Pattaya last I was chatting to a bargirl about her friend (another bargirl) getting married. This guy was going to pay 500,000 baht to her parents, 300,000 baht for the party afterwards and the 10 gold baht. Please correct me if I am wrong but that 1 gold baht is about 12,000/13,000 baht. So he is going to pay about 930,000 baht to marry a girl he meet in a bar.

I know of a Thai girl from good family and her husband paid about have that for her.

Just interested what you married guy think about it.

The going dowry rate in my Isan village when a Thai man marries a Thai girl (invariably from the same village) is around 40,000bt + 2/3bt weight of gold (another 40,000bt) The girl usually has a mundane job, but is not and never has been a sex worker.

When a farang is to marry a bar girl, the family usually demand a minimum of 100,000bt + some gold. They overlook the fact that their daughter will have a life well beyond their greatest expectations, and its often a case of pay up or you don't get my daughter!

A bar girl/sex worker, having likely been fucked by hundreds of men, and most probably having had 1/2 kids doesn't warrant any dowry in my book. Marrying her is doing her and her family a big service and from that alone they should gain face and respect.

My wife was never a sex worker. She worked in the noodle factory and spoke no English when we met. In general conversation conducted in Thai, on day 1, I told her that if ever I remarried, there would be no dowry, no party for the village scroungers, no Monks and no handouts for her family. I did not anticipate that our meeting would develop into a full relationship.

We have been together 9 years now, we are legally married (40bt in the local amphur), there was no dowry and no gold. The modest monthly allowance I give my wife is mostly banked, apart from a small amount she gives to her mother (the same as she gave her from her monthly wage packet from the noodle factory). She and our kids have a good life, good food, holidays etc and I believe thats how it should be. I married her and am responsible for her and our kids -not the family or the village who all claim some relationship.

I would suggest every farang contemplating marriage refuses to pay a dowry point blank. It may be the Thai custom, but you are not Thai, and she will benefit greatly from marrying you rather than a deadbeat Thai man. If she only wants you for your money then she will not marry you and that is no loss for you. But is she truly loves you, she will either persuade her parents not to require a dowry, or turn against them.

[LittleBigMan]

I agree and I disagree, Take it from me I would right now side more with OTH, because it is impossible to do what you are talking about (JB).

For years before I actually made it official legally to marry my wife I was so self center because I was married before in the states that I didn't necessary find the need to marry again in Thailand even though she had my son. I just felt as long as I took responsibility that it didn't really matter in Thailand since so many Thai's boys and men just walkaway and never give support. Prior to that I made it very clear that I didn't have much money and that whatever she see and hear from other Thai's that all of us Farang seem rich that wasn't true in my particular case. I spent years drilling that in her head and that I can't and will not be a ATM machine for anyone. I never came out directly to say her family but used other people as a example to get my point across. For years prior to my retirement we lived in a small room 1500 baht per month on the other side of Sukhumvit in Pattaya and she ran a small mini-mart. The place was new and clean with a small A/C, small water heater shower and a sit down toilet for me. To be honest life was real simple for me but I didn't know what she was going through until my brother pointed it out for me.

Her family living in Sukhothai, knew of me but never saw me. They just knew I was a farang and that being such wondered why she and our son was living like a regular poor Thai? Her family treated her poorly because they felt that as long as I wasn't going to marry her that she was no better that a BG, there was a expectation! When the family finally met me one day they couldn't believe what they were seeing a farang that wasn't white as expected. I was a Chinese Amercan that look just like them except I was wearing a polo shirt and Nikes. I showed my respect for the family and through a translator made it very clear what my current and future intend would be.

Today we are married and everything I have purchased is in her and my son name. I will gladly walk away if thing don't work out knowing that I have made a impact on their lives and I have no misconceptions or doubt at all! As for her family in Sukhothai, no matter how bad they treated her it is still her family but you can never just built a wall and shut them out completely. Aside for a few thousand baht here and there when her mother or we visit the family hasn't called for money but I know she gives what she can. When it comes to family whether you are abroad or in Thailand you do what you can to help when the need is truly necessary. JB, if you have a heart which I know you do, it just isn't that easy as drawing a line in the sand! years back I felt somewhat as you but when you actually experience it you become more open and flexible to things. But you do have a valid point that being in their daily lives can be a problem, for me, were in Pattaya and their in Sukhothai so the distant does help.

As for crime in Pattaya which I can speak of it does seem that crime is increasing and I certainly know what some are capable of since they try to break into my home. Thailand is a country of have and have not and those that seem to want give the other good Thai's a bad name for farangs.

Just my 2 cents from my own experience. LBM

[Jungle Bluebird]

Sorry OTH, to clarify. Thais have the uncanny ability to mess up fully functioning, good things. This talent extends to family matters. It's not that all Thai families are after money. It's simply the fact that most Thais have not yet gained the ability to look after themselves and their relatives in a responsible manner.

So best is not to get involved in family issues. Its not only about money, it's about just everything. Once you are in, good chance you get fully sucked into the daily escapades of your typical Thai family, well off or not.

JB

It might come as a shock to you. But, not all Thai families have "rediculous adventures", nor are they looking for a Farang ATM to join the family. It's true that the vast majority of Farang seem to get themselves tied up with such families. But, that's because they hook up with practically the first girl they meet, which usually is a girl of lowly origins, with questionable intentions, and unreasonable expectations. If one takes the time, one can find a girl with a good upbringing (who has a legitimate job, btw), from a reasonable family, who are not dysfunctional, or needy and thus don't have their hands out. There are plenty of girls from families like that in this country.

[Opebo]

As usual in your socialist rants, Mr. O, your ignorance of the country and culture and over-simplification of things defeats your argument.

OTH, I have long been well aware of every detail you mentioned in this last report (and who isn't?), with the one exception of the term 'jek'. Even in that case, Thai colleagues have oft described to me the phenomenon of dislike of more recent Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants relative to older echelons, though I had forgotten the specific pejoratives used.

I do appreciate your report however - quite a well written summary. I only object to your assumption that this common knowledge is somehow an insider's insight.

[Bob Down]

I have to ask about the going rate of a dowry, I know it depends on what the family consider a fare payment. It's just when I was in Pattaya last I was chatting to a bargirl about her friend (another bargirl) getting married. This guy was going to pay 500,000 baht to her parents, 300,000 baht for the party afterwards and the 10 gold baht. Please correct me if I am wrong but that 1 gold baht is about 12,000/13,000 baht. So he is going to pay about 930,000 baht to marry a girl he meet in a bar.

I know of a Thai girl from good family and her husband paid about have that for her.

Just interested what you married guy think about it.

[Bob Down]

Bob

... my 2 cents...:-) in Thailand 32 years for a 'girl' makes her pretty much non-competitive with regard to marriage. She is in fact considered old. Ask any Thai girl at an age of 26 and she will respond that she is old already and no longer wanted. As farangs we judge by what we see. Thai's go along traditional thinking.

I prefer women around 30, but my experience is they come in 2 groups.

Either frustrated, nice at first but with a huge chip on their shoulder - or - independent business women who’ve been there done that. They may have kids and have no intention to get married again. The latter are more fun to be with.

And.. whatever you will do, she will always assume your are screwing around. Her grandfather did that, so did her father. Why would you be any different. In fact you might as well just go for it then, just do NOT get caught.

JB

Yes I am aware about Thai girls needing to get married before they are 26 years old, and that is one thing I like about this girl. Her words " I am old and not sexy". I have a friend who is under pressure to marry his girlfriend and I am not sure where his relationship will end up.

When in BKK I always stay in Soi 4 or close by and she knows that, she knows I drink in the bars. But when she asked if I take girls back to my hotel well I wasn't going to say I did. Soi 4 is no place for a Thai girl but she meets me there. But I haven't taken her to any of my regular bars. Gullivers is the place to go.

JB you mentioned her father and grandfather but you forgot someone, her brother currently has a gig. Yes I believe she will never truly trust me. That is why I asked the question how do I tell her that I am going to visit a friend and not have her think I going to visit another girlfriend? Every where I go in Thailand I make friends and try to meet one or two of them on every trip I make.

Lastly I believe she is in the frustrated group, as she works long hours for little money and she sees girls working in bars laughing and joking and having much money, I know she is tempted by the money like many other girls. She even told me she went for a walk along Sukhumvit, but ran home after some guy tried to hit on her.

I have told her working in a bar was not a good idea especial seen she loves a drink or two.

[Old Thai Hand]

The g/f or wife can be the sweetest thing, but once the ever money hungry family with all their ridiculous adventures comes knocking on the door, the loving relationship with dearest is put under immense strain.JB

It might come as a shock to you. But, not all Thai families have "rediculous adventures", nor are they looking for a Farang ATM to join the family. It's true that the vast majority of Farang seem to get themselves tied up with such families. But, that's because they hook up with practically the first girl they meet, which usually is a girl of lowly origins, with questionable intentions, and unreasonable expectations. If one takes the time, one can find a girl with a good upbringing (who has a legitimate job, btw), from a reasonable family, who are not dysfunctional, or needy and thus don't have their hands out. There are plenty of girls from families like that in this country.

[Bumholes1]

Thai girls looked after the family before the farang came on to the scene and there is no reason for things to change. They wouldn't if she married or lived with a Thai man.

Simplest way (and it works) is to tell wife that her monthly allowance which replaces any previous job earnings is hers to do as she wishes (give to family, the wat, cards, lottery or whatever), and there is no more for 1 month. Family matters are her responsibility solely and once her allowance is gone there is no more! Both she and the family will soon learn the rules.

[Jungle Bluebird]

Yes you are right that it is expected in Thai culture to get engaged in family matters, but it is exactly for this reason that by all means one should avoid such engagement.

The g/f or wife can be the sweetest thing, but once the ever money hungry family with all their ridiculous adventures comes knocking on the door, the loving relationship with dearest is put under immense strain.

Myself and friends made it clear from the start that they have little sympathy for any family issues and this worked well. I blamed it on a lack of cultural understanding, which is also certainly true.

JB

Re: "After all one marries the girl and NOT the family."

While I do agree that clear and firm ground rules need to be set early on, for any kind of successful relationship here, you simply cannot discount the family. The truth is one does marry the family as well as the girl. That is about as "Thai culture" as you can get. There's no way around it, or kiss the girl goodbye. How you choose to handle that and establish your position is up to you.

[Old Thai Hand]

2 issues I would like to raise/add:

1.) Pattaya and Patong (Phuket) are in fact slums. These places offer the same little insight into the social economic tapestry like any other slum in Africa or wherever.

Any foreigner living there for some time will confirm this. Police is incredible corrupt in these places (to be placed there cops pay prime handling fees), overall no environmental concerns, high drug use plus, like in any other slum, loads of guns and violence.

Newbie’s to Thailand meet girls there and unlike Bangkok most of the P4P girls do speak English. So a lot of new found Thailand insight comes from the little roaches inhabiting these places. Hardly educated insight into this highly complex society.

2.) To marry a P4P girls is simply out of the question (for the average guy this is). When getting engaged to 'normal' girls (non P4P) the marriage thing is easy to be kept at bay. Just make it clear from the start that you do not care about her family and that you never have any intention to get involved in family issues.

Yes, sounds a bit hard, but it works. Ground rules when getting married to a Thai girl are very, very important. Thai have little discipline, and need to know their spot. Any false (or real) concern about the Thai family will lead to problems. After all one marries the girl and NOT the family.

JB

Re: Pattaya

In fact Pattaya is the most crime-ridden place in Thailand. I'm just waiting for the day that Daddy07's rental is broken into and all his gear is stolen. The number of break-ins and thefts in Pattaya are at epidemic proportions.

Re: "After all one marries the girl and NOT the family."

While I do agree that clear and firm ground rules need to be set early on, for any kind of successful relationship here, you simply cannot discount the family. The truth is one does marry the family as well as the girl. That is about as "Thai culture" as you can get. There's no way around it, or kiss the girl goodbye. How you choose to handle that and establish your position is up to you.

[Jungle Bluebird]

Bob

... my 2 cents...:-) in Thailand 32 years for a 'girl' makes her pretty much non-competitive with regard to marriage. She is in fact considered old. Ask any Thai girl at an age of 26 and she will respond that she is old already and no longer wanted. As farangs we judge by what we see. Thai's go along traditional thinking.

I prefer women around 30, but my experience is they come in 2 groups.

Either frustrated, nice at first but with a huge chip on their shoulder - or - independent business women who’ve been there done that. They may have kids and have no intention to get married again. The latter are more fun to be with.

And.. whatever you will do, she will always assume your are screwing around. Her grandfather did that, so did her father. Why would you be any different. In fact you might as well just go for it then, just do NOT get caught.

JB

I think you have me all wrong OTH, this girl is not some teenager from upcountry. Secondly I did not meet her on some dating website either. I am incontact with a small number of girls, I met this girl through her cousin.

I have never said that she was never going to be my girlfriend, only that I need more time to know her better. With that said, yes I still maintain contact with this girl.

With every trip I learn a little bit more, but still no expert. I also learn from reading this forum and chating to my Thai friends online, and I have some friends at home that r married to Thai women.

Also this girl is 32 years old and does have some life experience. I did not put a gun to her head and force her into bed with me, she had that planned all along.

But answer me this, western thinking of a friend is different to a Thai thinking of a friend. How do I tell her I am going to another province to visit a friend only. Without her thinking I am going to visit another girlfriend. This is a honest question not trying to find a way to bullshit her. I had this problem last trip.

[Daddy07]

I ... This will be the case with my GF and I. So, she gets her marriage and saves face with family and friends and I still, in effect have my freedom. If it doesn't work out, I can simply walk away without any legal obligation, whatsoever... Even when legal, the laws are incredibly weak. There is no community property, no alimony, and no support in anyway, if the marriage ends in a divorce. For example, if the house is in the man's name, he can throw out the wife. She has no legal recourse, whatsoever...

Fascinating!!! Incredible!!! Unimaginable!!! Outstanding!!!

Every day I find another reason to love this place. Thailand is truely paradise on earth for men like me.

[Jungle Bluebird]

2 issues I would like to raise/add:

1.) Pattaya and Patong (Phuket) are in fact slums. These places offer the same little insight into the social economic tapestry like any other slum in Africa or wherever.

Any foreigner living there for some time will confirm this. Police is incredible corrupt in these places (to be placed there cops pay prime handling fees), overall no environmental concerns, high drug use plus, like in any other slum, loads of guns and violence.

Newbie’s to Thailand meet girls there and unlike Bangkok most of the P4P girls do speak English. So a lot of new found Thailand insight comes from the little roaches inhabiting these places. Hardly educated insight into this highly complex society.

2.) To marry a P4P girls is simply out of the question (for the average guy this is). When getting engaged to 'normal' girls (non P4P) the marriage thing is easy to be kept at bay. Just make it clear from the start that you do not care about her family and that you never have any intention to get involved in family issues.

Yes, sounds a bit hard, but it works. Ground rules when getting married to a Thai girl are very, very important. Thai have little discipline, and need to know their spot. Any false (or real) concern about the Thai family will lead to problems. After all one marries the girl and NOT the family.

JB

[Old Thai Hand]

The Chinese-Thai correspond to the marauding whites, and the Isaan/Lao and other darker portions of the Thai nation correspond to american indians, in the Thai case used as slaves, instead of killed off quickly a la america. I thought it was an interesting comparison, and provided a clear understanding of capitalist/genocidal processes in both countries.

Well, except that Isaan/Lao aren't any more Thai than the Thai-Chinese. Thailand is in fact a polyglot of feifdoms welded together by murderous in-fighting with the Chakri dynasty finally rising to the top in 1787. The Thai mind has been succesfully brainwashed into thinking that there is some single entity called "Thainess", when the truth is that Thailand is multicultural melting pot of sorts, similar to the US.

In fact the only true ethnic Thais are the central plains Thais centred around Bangkok. The rest of the country is made up of outsiders like Isaan people, Hilltribes, jungle natives in Nan, southern Malay/Indian, northern Lanna and the Chinese everywhere.

While it is true that the Chinese have risen to be the power elite in most cases, they a relative newcomers. The true power is still in the hands of the old Thai families that may have some Chinese blood, but who are predominantly Thai and who go back 500+ years or so.

BTW the term 'jek' is a derogatory term that was mainly applied by ethnic Thais to 'recent' (starting about 100 or so years ago) Chinese immigrants, who, of course eventually rose to be the money power in the country. Ex-PM Taksin is one of those. They can be spotted by their names, which have more than two syllables and often a dozen or more letters. The usual Thai name is relatively short and has only two syllables.

Overall, the social and ethic organization of Thailand is quite complex and not easily interpreted by those not familiar with its intricacies. To simply say those with dark skin are the slaves and those with white are the masters is childish, simplistic and highly inaccurate. While white skin certainly is the aesthetic nirvana to which all Thai women aspire, it is not all that guarantees being in the elite. The Royal Family itself are somewhat dark-skinned by comparison to the ideal and it hasn't hurt them any.

As usual in your socialist rants, Mr. O, your ignorance of the country and culture and over-simplification of things defeats your argument.