German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[Polyamorist]

Poly, you crack me up man! You have a original way of putting things in perspective. Interesting comparison between food shortages and attractive pussy -- we solved the first problem, but how do we solve the second one? I seem to lose attraction when the girl ages even a few extra years, even those I used to find eminently Fuckable.

Perhaps because the girls have been prematurely aged by smoking and obesity? In the original spirit of the movement, FKKs should be at the forefront of promoting public health. It is when people are naked that the ravages of a poor lifestyle on beauty are most evident. How about replacing all the crap carbs in those buffets with fruits and salads? There are some FKKs I will go into and half the girls are unfuckable because of this one problem. It is part of the global obesity epidemic that has blown up over the past few decades. I think if we were mongering in the 1970's this issue wouldn't even be on our radar.

Maʿ al- salāmah, Jnpr, and may the white goat of peace nuzzle ever more gently at your testicles!

[Member #4581]

In most developed countries like the US and France there is a perceived shortage of attractive women, leading to hoarding, leading to exacerbation of the shortage, leading to great conflict between guys: any guy would stab his brother or best friend for a chance of a night with a hottie! I suspect this situation will one day be considered as unhealthy for society as the shortage of food in the Middle Ages..

Poly, you crack me up man! You have a original way of putting things in perspective. Interesting comparison between food shortages and attractive pussy -- we solved the first problem, but how do we solve the second one? I seem to lose attraction when the girl ages even a few extra years, even those I used to find eminently Fuckable.

[Polyamorist]

McAdonis. I always, like you, try to put business the way of a girl I like and think is good. I check with her first of course. As you say, the girls concerned always appreciate this: they'd rather have a publicist than a jealous guy trailing them (unless that guy has the money to buy them for the day). I also let other less reliable guys take "my" girl first, so she appreciates that, and when she goes with me she often has already made her target for the day.

Ass-alam Optimist! Now this is what I call the true FKK spirit. Sharing the bounty of the earth freely. Completely the opposite to the competitive spirit that some guys bring to the FKKs.

In most developed countries like the US and France there is a perceived shortage of attractive women, leading to hoarding, leading to exacerbation of the shortage, leading to great conflict between guys: any guy would stab his brother or best friend for a chance of a night with a hottie! I suspect this situation will one day be considered as unhealthy for society as the shortage of food in the Middle Ages.

Anyway a lot of guys have a hard time dropping this mindset when they enter FKKs. They might bring gold watches with them to convince the girls they are richer than other mongers, or tell the girls, "Don't go with those other guys, they are fat monsters!" The girls learn to have contempt for the guys and set them against each other, the same as in mainstream society.

That is why it is like a breath of fresh air to hear people take a non-possessive, non-grasping attitude towards the girls in this forum.

[Optimist]

UH. Thanks. That excellent video clip makes in great detail the point I was trying to make. A bit more radical than me though.

Agreed again, hopefully this is all hot air on our part and we will never be faced with it in reality. I just want to get my mind in the right place just in case. Up till now I have always been very friendly and forthcoming with German police: in future I intend to melt into the background if I can.

[Mr Ho]

But it ain't over till its over.

The last of the German BBBJ.

[Mr Ho]

We need pros lobbying in German parliament to lift the ban on BBBJ part as it is almost done as a side topping of the law.

[UltraHappy]

I believe that when one lies and especially in a legal situation, eventually the truth comes out these days with the amount of surveillance and electronic clues we have / leave everywhere. In my view, a cover up always looks worse than the original lie. So, this is a general principle.

I agree with Optimist, I didn't mean that one should volunteer a tremendous amount of information to the police, but whatever you say, it should not be a lie. If possible, speak as little as needed.

Anyway, these issues crop up only if the situation balloons up into a big legal calamity. Far better to pay a quick fine and leave with a clean record, if such a thing is possible. As long as the fines are less than a grand, I think most foreign tourists might be amenable to this. If the fine is as high as 50 K, then guys might contest. If the fine is a few thousand, then it becomes more complicated -- to contest / appeal, or not?!

It's not just about being caught in a lie. Often, telling the truth can land you in hot water. If you don't believe me, listen to this law professor describe all the reasons why he declares that he is PROUD that he will NEVER talk to ANY police officer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

And, if you don't believe that law professor, then listen to the highly experienced police officer during the second half of the presentation who has conducted hundreds and hundreds of interrogations. Admittedly, this presentation is directed to US law, but it's enough to put the fear in me of ever saying anything to the police. Granted, I don't apply this rule so strictly when I am abroad, but in the States, I never answer questions from police officers.

Regarding the amount of the fines, if I were ever caught doing something illegal in an FKK (like for example, smoking indoors in an NRW club), I would be quite happy to pay a 1,000 Euro fine and be done with it. If the fine were 50,000 Euros, then in that case, I would have to consult my consulate (which all foreigners have the right to do per international treaty) before deciding what course of action made sense for me.

In any case, I agree that all of this talk is purely theoretical as the current evidence suggests that there is no likelihood that any of us would ever be prosecuted for any violations whilst enjoying one's self in a sauna club.

[Optimist]

Jnpr. I have been in maybe six fullscale raids and they are exactly as you say: absolutely no problem for customers as they were only taking part in legal activities. In future there will be the new element that the Police raid could possibly be keeping an eye out for the newly illegal activities: in view of this my attitude wil change and I will exercise discretion, being the better part of valour, and will just try to keep off their radar (no more long chats with Police during a raid). Innocence is never any guarantee of not being framed, set up, and even found guilty.

I agree a cover up lie is the worst option. I meant just to say it's a good idea not to implicate oneself intentionally or accidentally unless there is the evidence against one.

UH. In my country a phone access cannot be denied to the Police. To withhold passwords to encryption is a serious criminal offence. I think in Germany it is different, so you are correct and they would have a much harder case to make to get access to a phone.

Anyway, I didn't mean to inflate this issue. As Jnpr says, enforcement is likely to be near impossible. If anyone is caught then I hope as he does that one can just pay the fine and not get a criminal record.

[Member #4581]

Agree with UH. Being in the FKK is by itself quite legal. I have never been caught in one of those raids on the clubs thank goodness, and I heard that by and large they check that girls and clubs are following the rules and leave the men alone (may be check their IDs at best) -- and I don't know if they ask why you are in the club and so on. Having sex in the club with girls there is quite legal and I don't see why I should lie about it.

My comments were more generic in nature and not specific to the club. I believe that when one lies and especially in a legal situation, eventually the truth comes out these days with the amount of surveillance and electronic clues we have / leave everywhere. In my view, a cover up always looks worse than the original lie. So, this is a general principle.

I agree with Optimist, I didn't mean that one should volunteer a tremendous amount of information to the police, but whatever you say, it should not be a lie. If possible, speak as little as needed.

Anyway, these issues crop up only if the situation balloons up into a big legal calamity. Far better to pay a quick fine and leave with a clean record, if such a thing is possible. As long as the fines are less than a grand, I think most foreign tourists might be amenable to this. If the fine is as high as 50 K, then guys might contest. If the fine is a few thousand, then it becomes more complicated -- to contest / appeal, or not?!

[UltraHappy]

If you can, avoid presenting your passport at a raid (say it is in your car, then go out and drive off if possible, as most customers did at a recent raid in Frankfurt). Deny going to an FKK to have sex, say you were just there for the sauna and to relax. Give a story about the places you visited as a tourist by train and with your mobile phone turned off. They are then faced with having to decide if it's worth seizing your or the club's electronics to try to disprove you. And so on.

I don't know why I would need to say that I was at the FKK for just relax. Being at FKK is totally legal in Germany. Why would I need to run away from FKK control? It's not illegal for me to be there. Why would I need to make up stories about other places that I've been to?

Perhaps these gentlemen feared that there was some sort of evidence of some sort of illegal activity against them? Maybe they were smoking inside the club when the raid occurred and the tourists knew that smoking inside the clubs is now illegal?

Even if the police seize my phone, I suspect that they couldn't do much with it as it is locked and encrypted. So, if my phone is off when they seize it, the data on it is completely encrypted and inaccessible, even if they could somehow bypass the lockscreen. To the police, my phone is just a useless brick -- an expensive brick but a brick nonetheless. Even if they seize my phone in the on state, bypassing the lockscreen is not trivial, even if possible, and I doubt they would go to such efforts for most low level offenses.

[Optimist]

Jnpr. You raise crucial questions. I hope somebody knows the answers

On a separate aspect. Advice given to me by Police I know, and obviously followed by Police themselves, don't admit to ANYTHING (until you have seen evidence against you which is clearly impossible to dispute in any way) to the Police when they first talk to you. If you are innocent of what they are asking about, still don't admit anything (even that the sun is shining). Police say that everybody is guilty of something somewhere in their lives, it's just a question of getting them to talk or seizing electronic evidence.

If you can, avoid presenting your passport at a raid (say it is in your car, then go out and drive off if possible, as most customers did at a recent raid in Frankfurt). Deny going to an FKK to have sex, say you were just there for the sauna and to relax. Give a story about the places you visited as a tourist by train and with your mobile phone turned off. They are then faced with having to decide if it's worth seizing your or the club's electronics to try to disprove you. And so on.

Of course once it goes to court the situation is different and what JNPR says in b) is sensible, not to insult the legal system with barefaced lies which can be easily disproven

[Myrrh]

Let's say I am riding the you-bahn without a ticket. Then, I get the standard 60 Euro fine.

What happens if I don't pay? What happens if I can't pay?

They take me to jail for awhile? Or, does this present a problem the next time I try to enter the country? If I have 3 unpaid you-bahn fines, will they deny me entry upon arrival by Immigration until I settle my previously late fines?

No need to discuss plausibility of enforcement of you-bahn fines. Happens every day. I've just never heard definitely what happens when one doesn't pay this fine.

I was stopped in June for being on the metro without a valid ticket. I had a ticket that was a couple of days old and was trying to argue that I had bought this ticket but hadn't traveled that day so thought that I could use it on another day as it had not already been validated.

Their view was that the ticket was only valid on the date that it was bought. They also said that if I was a German citizen then they would take and validate my address and give me a summons to appear at some office to either pay the fine or provide plausible reasons why I did not have a valid ticket. However as I was non-German I would have to either pay the fine on the spot or they would call the police.

I refused to pay and they called the police however as the police were busy with other more important matters I was detained at the station for 30 minutes before I decided that I could not stay waiting at the station indefinitely as I had to get on with my day.

They had asked for my passport saying that all visitors are obliged to carry identification at all times but I said that I did not have one. I was wary in case they would hold on to it rather than hand it back. Maybe the reason they detained me was also partly because they wanted the police to check whether I was in the country illegally.

In the scenario where you are left waiting for the police indefinitely and then have to make a trip to the police station which would take up 2 or more hours of your time then maybe it would be worth paying the fine.

In any case I believe they have a two or three strikes and then you are out approach. So if you are given a fine and do not pay it then the next time you could be arrested and asked to attend court where you could be fined a higher amount and imprisoned or banned from the country if you don't pay.

Do they note unpaid fines on your record for immigration purposes? I am not sure of the scenario whereby if you return to Germany and there are unpaid fines noted on your record whether you would have the option to pay the fine at the passport desk. That is not their responsibility after all and they may not have the procedure in place to pass these unpaid fines on to the appropriate persons.

[XXL]

If Germany were to take my passport in that scenario, what's to stop me from driving to my American consulate in France, reporting my passport lost, getting a new passport issued to me on an expedited basis, then returning home directly from France with my new passport?

If your passport gets confiscated it should go on a list and your consulate should know about it. Things go quite fast these days with EDP. If you lie to get one back all the same you are committing a further offence and putting yourself deeper into trouble. When you report a lost ID or passport you are required to tell the truth about what happened (lost, stolen, burnt etc.).

[Member #4581]

I agree with Neuro that these discussions are largely theoretical and academic. I think (hope?) that investigations, convictions, and large fines and other punishments are unlikely.

This link here gives some overview of the German legal system. No idea if this info is accurate and authentic.

http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/legal.html

My personal view in legal matters is, (a) not to break the law to the max extent possible (b) if broken and caught, then not to present a argumentative defense which could insult the judges' intelligence and toughen their stance and resolve -- rather to admit to facts which are evident, pay any fine and request for lenience due to a first time offense (c) not to repeat any longer. Anyway, that's me.

I am more interested in what the procedures and processes are -- can you pay the fine on the spot and leave? Does the record stay on beyond the fine? If the fine is a large one and you want to contest or appeal, how long before one can see the judge and be stuck in Germany (and do you need to engage a local lawyer -- if the fine is as large as 50 K then I would assume that you would want some legal help).

Anyway, I hope none of us have ever to face these issues.

[Akibono]

If Germany were to take my passport in that scenario, what's to stop me from driving to my American consulate in France, reporting my passport lost, getting a new passport issued to me on an expedited basis, then returning home directly from France with my new passport?

So many mysteries about the German legal system. Too bad there are no German legal experts here.

Are you willing to bet the German gov. Is that stupid? Are you willing to be charged with a second crime?

What is more interesting is: do you have the right to have the girl there as a witness? What if you paid her not to be available? You could always allege that no condom was the girls idea and you just did not know. A better defense.