German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[Akibono]

If Germany were to take my passport in that scenario, what's to stop me from driving to my American consulate in France, reporting my passport lost, getting a new passport issued to me on an expedited basis, then returning home directly from France with my new passport?

So many mysteries about the German legal system. Too bad there are no German legal experts here.

Are you willing to bet the German gov. Is that stupid? Are you willing to be charged with a second crime?

What is more interesting is: do you have the right to have the girl there as a witness? What if you paid her not to be available? You could always allege that no condom was the girls idea and you just did not know. A better defense.

[UltraHappy]

17.3 indicates the offender's wealth / economic circumstances are sometimes considered.

https://dejure.org/gesetze/OWiG/17.html

Damn. That's some serious shit.

And, thanks for sharing the link! You are a gentlemen and a scholar sir!

[Samplerr]

Do you happen to have a link to these general statutes that purport to charge fines for Ordnungswidrigkeit offences in proportion to salary? I don't see these anywhere in my searching.

17.3 indicates the offender's wealth / economic circumstances are sometimes considered.

https://dejure.org/gesetze/OWiG/17.html

[UltraHappy]

On your imigration card or your visa application you will have provided your profession.

Those of us arriving from the States do not fill out an immigration card -- Rather, we qualify for visa-free travel. So, we do not provide our profession to Germany before or upon arrival.

I found this interesting comparative law article that compares some of the aspects of German criminal law to American law. On p. 45, the author writes:

"German procedures against self-incrimination are equal to, or perhaps even stronger than, American standards. However, unlike in America, "most German defendants waive their right to remain silent. " On the one hand, this may be a cultural difference bolstered by the atmosphere and customs of a German trial. But there is also a procedural distinction that underpins the difference: defendants in Germany are allowed to give unsworn statements at trial, and they cannot be held criminally liable for these statements. ".

Source: http://www.eur.army.mil/aepubs/docs/CLS-Germany.pdf.

I find it interesting that the German court supposedly cannot hold a defendant criminally liable for their own statements. In the States, many Defendants are convicted solely based on their own testimony.

Another brief article about a few key points of German law states as follows:

"Under certain circumstances, accused parties who are not German may have their passports confiscated to keep them from leaving the country. In serious cases, the accused may be placed in pre-trial confinement. ".

Source: http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/legal.html.

So, at least in some cases, Germany could withhold your passport to keep you from leaving the country or keep you in jail until trial. I wonder how long I could go without paying a fine for traveling on the the Deutsche Bahn without a ticket before Germany decides to pull the trigger on the nuclear option and jails me or confiscates my passport?

If Germany were to take my passport in that scenario, what's to stop me from driving to my American consulate in France, reporting my passport lost, getting a new passport issued to me on an expedited basis, then returning home directly from France with my new passport?

So many mysteries about the German legal system. Too bad there are no German legal experts here.

[XXL]

Do you happen to have a link to these general statutes that purport to charge fines for Ordnungswidrigkeit offences in proportion to salary? I don't see these anywhere in my searching.

In Germany, an accused has an absolute right to remain silent. So, I'm curious how a German court determine a foreigner's profession if the accused relies on their right to remain silent?

You have a right to remain silent but once charged you (your lawyer) must say something eventually. Your lawyer can lie in court but it can be a good idea to tell something close to the truth. On your imigration card or your visa application you will have provided your profession.

Remaining silent means leaving it to your lawyer to do the talking and not incriminating yourself before any charges are made. It doesn't mean you can get off the hook by playing deaf and dumb.

In practice you should get the opportunity of paying a fine and be done with it and that is the best thing to do. I'm not sure they fine proportional to salary for non arrestable offences. For arrestable offences they sure do.

[UltraHappy]

It wouldn't be written in THE law. You would find it in general statutes regarding sentencing / fining.

Courts usually make an estimate of what a accused earns on the basis of their declared profession.

Do you happen to have a link to these general statutes that purport to charge fines for Ordnungswidrigkeit offences in proportion to salary? I don't see these anywhere in my searching.

In Germany, an accused has an absolute right to remain silent. So, I'm curious how a German court determine a foreigner's profession if the accused relies on their right to remain silent?

[Mr Ho]

Well only counter strategy I can think of for Germany is strategy 50.

If there is no BBBJ, I just go for 50 euro 30 min doggu dog style banging sessions. Without BBBJ quality of session would be limited anyways and I doubt they gives me rimjob after gives me CBJ? Or rimjobs comes with condom too now? LOL.

BBBJ long sessions, no BBBJ just 50 euro sessions is the only way for me.

[Mr Ho]

Change? But I thought there was a cap on 2 periods at the office.

Or does Germany also allow foreigners into high office positions? Hehe.

BBBJ Libre!

[XXL]

There's nothing written in the law about this. I'm not saying that you're wrong -- I'm merely stating that I've read the law and the law doesn't say anything about this (including the section that particularly deals with fines).

In any case, how would Germany know how much I, as an foreigner, earned anyways? What's to stop me from saying that I am but a humble office worker who only makes $23,000 per year? (or $47,000 per year or whatever).

It wouldn't be written in THE law. You would find it in general statutes regarding sentencing / fining.

Courts usually make an estimate of what a accused earns on the basis of their declared profession. Only in tax fraud cases or serious criminal cases (more than a 3-month suspended) would they look into your bank account (difficult to believe but true). A clever lawyer would tell the court what you do for a living in a way that would induce the court to set the lowest rate possible. Astonishingly the courts don't investigate this in detail, probably because it would add considerably to their workload. If you lie you lie at your own risk but you may withhold part of the truth. You may let on that you are a building engineer and withhold the fact that you are also a building contractor with your own successful company. That's why bragging about one's financial status is the last thing to do when dealing with the police or the court system here. There's a barrier in Germany that protects your bank account (up to a point) from automatic inspection even by the courts.

I'm sure if mongers get fined for BBBJ the fining/sentencing will be testimony-based only. This is not per se good news as it depends on someone else's story. But if a prosecutor ("Staatsanwalt"), or in more serious cases, a judge, is convinced you did it, you're toast. I am not about to forget the day when that German lawyer told me "You wouldn't believe how many guys sit in Stadelheim just because someone said "I saw him do it". Stadelheim is a well-know prison. I read somewhere this heavy reliance on testimonies was typical of Societies where torture is not an option. You can't torture a suspect so you have to rely on what other people say. Torture is certainly not a good think but it's interesting that even the abolition of torture may have come at a price.

[UltraHappy]

Let's say I am riding the you-bahn without a ticket. Then, I get the standard 60 Euro fine.

What happens if I don't pay? What happens if I can't pay?

They take me to jail for awhile? Or, does this present a problem the next time I try to enter the country? If I have 3 unpaid you-bahn fines, will they deny me entry upon arrival by Immigration until I settle my previously late fines?

No need to discuss plausibility of enforcement of you-bahn fines. Happens every day. I've just never heard definitely what happens when one doesn't pay this fine.

[Optimist]

All of this speculation about fines and how they will be collected is a bit of a waste of time. And that's because the law itself is unenforcible. I'll be surprised if there will any fines for BB sex at all.

What sequence of events will lead to that AND provide evidence to support the charge? Be specific and plausible.

Again, I agree (well, 90%) I find it hard to see the law being highly enforced (I'm no expert but I think there has been little enforcement over the years in Bayern). The most likely problem would be a normal run of the mill raid on one of the clubs which used to be officially AO, with the Police then rummaging through waste bins looking for condoms, and taking the names of the customers present and writing to them at home with some kind of general warning letter. Someone would have to be very very unlucky to be found in a position where legally relevant evidence of BBBJ was available.

Any views on this from members resident in Germany and fluent in German would be interesting

Time will tell.

[Pistons]

There is no worry now guys, I am standing in next election, I am going to change all this LOL.

Change? But I thought there was a cap on 2 periods at the office.

Or does Germany also allow foreigners into high office positions? Hehe.

[Mr Ho]

There is no worry now guys, I am standing in next election, I am going to change all this LOL.

[Neurosynth]

All of this speculation about fines and how they will be collected is a bit of a waste of time. And that's because the law itself is unenforcible. I'll be surprised if there will any fines for BB sex at all.

What sequence of events will lead to that AND provide evidence to support the charge? Be specific and plausible.

[Pistons]

Clubs have no incentive to help out mongers; as MCA and others said, they are operated by borderline legal entities who want to be seen as playing by the rules. And which club wants to be raising prices to help out a monger, and risk losing some business in the process?

I agree, but then why should the club even care advising or telling the girls about the new laws as the clubs want to legally distance themselves from both the girls and the mongers.