German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[Member #4581]

How does the process and time line work? You get charged in the club presumably; is it like a traffic ticket, with "pay it or contest it" provision? If you don't pay, what's the next step and how long before you get your day in the courts? If the fine is a few hundred euro one might pay it to avoid hassle, but if it is 50 grand, I assume at least some people would contest. Are foreigners required to stay in the country before it is resolved, else they will be stopped at the airport?

Is the amount of fine decided on the spot, as the traffic cops do, or is decided by a judge in the court?

[UltraHappy]

Fines are proportional to the purchasing power of the offender. If you get a one month suspended you pay a fine equal to one month wages.

There's nothing written in the law about this. I'm not saying that you're wrong -- I'm merely stating that I've read the law and the law doesn't say anything about this (including the section that particularly deals with fines).

In any case, how would Germany know how much I, as an foreigner, earned anyways? What's to stop me from saying that I am but a humble office worker who only makes $23,000 per year? (or $47,000 per year or whatever).

[XXL]

If I'm reading this correctly, I need to hire a surrogate unemployed guy to take my BBBJ, then if he gets caught he will be fined 400 euros, and I will pay him a measly grand to keep his mouth shut. I just hope LE isn't watching this thread.

This wouldn't make sense but if you're tired of chasing BBBJs and want to hit the pipe instead, that's the idea.

[Polyamorist]

Fines are proportional to the purchasing power of the offender. If you get a one month suspended you pay a fine equal to one month wages. If you are unemployed your fine can be as low as 400 Euro. If you are an executive you will pay 10 to 15 thousand (for the same crime / offence). That's why if a good-earner wants to commit a particular crime, it's a good idea for him to delegate the criminal activity to a low-earner and pay his fine plus a hefty premium for not spilling the beans.

If I'm reading this correctly, I need to hire a surrogate unemployed guy to take my BBBJ, then if he gets caught he will be fined 400 euros, and I will pay him a measly grand to keep his mouth shut. I just hope LE isn't watching this thread.

[XXL]

I have no idea what would happen to someone who did not have the financial wherewithal to pay the fine. It would be interesting to hear the answer from those familiar with the German legal system.

Fines are proportional to the purchasing power of the offender. If you get a one month suspended you pay a fine equal to one month wages. If you are unemployed your fine can be as low as 400 Euro. If you are an executive you will pay 10 to 15 thousand (for the same crime / offence). That's why if a good-earner wants to commit a particular crime, it's a good idea for him to delegate the criminal activity to a low-earner and pay his fine plus a hefty premium for not spilling the beans. Similar system but even worse in Switzerland where a millionaire made the news when he got a 150 000 Euro fine for speeding with his Lamborghini.

Legal insurance explicitely excludes insurance against premeditated offences and crimes. In practice any "vice" would be uninsured. I'm pretty sure a violation of the prostitution law would not be insurable. Drunk driving into a party of students and killing 5 could be insured though because it's something a moral jerk (married with four children etc.) would be likely to do. Insurance exists to protect families, not rogue individuals like mongers. Likewise a health insurance can cover costly mountain-climbing, diving and motocycle accidents but it will not cover a cocaine-induced heart attack.

If I were "caught" getting a BBBJ I would't expect a fine higher than the higher range of speeding tickets (hundred of euros, not more). And no criminal record, as has been pointed out before!

[Optimist]

Clubs .. are operated by borderline legal entities who want to be seen as playing by the rules

This wording should be handed out to every new visitor to fkks.

[UltraHappy]

Is it up to 50 grand or always a fixed amount of 50 K?

Section 33 of the law states that the fine is *up to* 50,000 Euros (not fixed) but within the discretion of the court. Presumably, the highest fine would be reserved for repeat offenders.

The explanation under Section 33 of the law explains that the high upper amount of the fine against customers is justified given that the objective behind the law is the protection of the health and safety of other third persons (that is, the prostitute themselves).

I have no idea what would happen to someone who did not have the financial wherewithal to pay the fine. It would be interesting to hear the answer from those familiar with the German legal system.

Regarding insurance for crimes, in most legal systems, it is considered against public policy to insure against fines from the commission of crimes and therefore prohibited. In the States for example, one cannot insure against fraud, willful misconduct, and fines resulting from the commission of crimes. Therefore, this type of insurance is usually prohibited. In short, the law usually takes a dim view on arrangements that encourage naughty stuff. I would be extremely surprised if Germany's position on this issue was substantially different than most other developed countries. So, I give the poster below Ilink good marks on creativity, but the lawyers appear to already be ahead of you on this point.

[Member #4581]

I understand that prosecution for BBBJ is only a minor offence similar to a parking or speeding ticket. However the fine of 50,000 is scary. . I believe the sex industry has an organisation to represent them. Why dos't the industry levy their members with a charge and say they will pay the fine for the first person successfully prosecuted up to 50,000.

Alternatively some enterprising insurance company could insure against the fine for what I believe could be a low charge. Or a gambling / betting company offer very good ods on you being prosecuted fined say over 1000. Where are all the lateral thinkers?

Is it up to 50 grand or always a fixed amount of 50 K€? What happens if a guy couldn't come up with more than a few thousands even if you auctioned off everything he has? I suspect that amount is a deterrent, and judges would have leeway in deciding the amount of fine, depending on other circumstances. Don't know how the German system works in these issues.

Clubs have no incentive to help out mongers; as MCA and others said, they are operated by borderline legal entities who want to be seen as playing by the rules. And which club wants to be raising prices to help out a monger, and risk losing some business in the process?

Insurance. That's always a possibility. If you look hard enough, you can buy insurance for pretty much anything. Just a matter of how much premium will be charged and who / how many would be buying such insurance.

For a lot of guys, the social opprobrium with getting charged and prosecuted, and any related risk of what that might do to his job and personal life is as bad or worse than the €50 K amount.

[Optimist]

McAdonis. I always, like you, try to put business the way of a girl I like and think is good. I check with her first of course. As you say, the girls concerned always appreciate this: they'd rather have a publicist than a jealous guy trailing them (unless that guy has the money to buy them for the day). I also let other less reliable guys take "my" girl first, so she appreciates that, and when she goes with me she often has already made her target for the day.

Badin. The girls concerned always like it if I tell them I was just a tiny bit jealous waiting. They think this is as you say, normal. And most girls like the flattery they see as implicit in this.In truth I'm not really jealous at all, just wish I had unlimited money, energy, and time.

[Ilink]

I understand that prosecution for BBBJ is only a minor offence similar to a parking or speeding ticket. However the fine of €50,000 is scary. . I believe the sex industry has an organisation to represent them. Why dos't the industry levy their members with a charge and say they will pay the fine for the first person successfully prosecuted up to €50,000.

Alternatively some enterprising insurance company could insure against the fine for what I believe could be a low charge. Or a gambling / betting company offer very good ods on you being prosecuted fined say over €1000. Where are all the lateral thinkers?

[Pistons]

If I like the WGs, I try to help them get more business. Most of the time, if I remember, I may even ask the customer to explicitly state that I was the one that directed business to the WG. The WG is always appreciative. This is not always selfish on my part. I have even referred WGs that I've never tried before. "That girl over there is Sandra. She is not my type, but I've never heard anything bad about her. ".

That's how I see it too. The girls are in it for the money and we don't get any pay for it as opposed to what that silly ABC article was on about. All we get might at most be a better relationship with the girl (s). And why be possessive and selfish? Why not open and polygamous?

[McAdonis]

I think it's normal human behavior. If you really really like someone it's only human nature to not like seeing someone with the person you like. I am sure someone can related to this. I am only saying to think with the big picture and remind yourself that it's part of their job. Don't go act out all crazy.

If I like the WGs, I try to help them get more business. Most of the time, if I remember, I may even ask the customer to explicitly state that I was the one that directed business to the WG. The WG is always appreciative. This is not always selfish on my part. I have even referred WGs that I've never tried before. "That girl over there is Sandra. She is not my type, but I've never heard anything bad about her. ".

When a customer walks up and says "Hi Sandra. We never met before, but I heard from another customer that you are good in the room", I think that sends an indirect message: The customers talk to each other. It is a form of positive reinforcement that would hopefully encourage them to continue being top-performers (and not go to the dark side).

Problem is at many clubs, particularly touristic ones, the men are lone wolf, anti-social types, who are not interested in sharing information. So the scammers don't get punished, and the honest ones don't get rewarded.

[McAdonis]

No, I don't believe this is one year lease as the girls sometime come and go.

Plenty of people have long term leases but "come and go". I have met one German FKKer who is married. He works in FRA maybe 5-10 days out of the month while his family lives three hours away. So he has a lease on a small flat that is only occupied a portion of the year.

Also it could also be one person officially on the lease but multiple people rotating in and out.

Here is an idea. Why don't you ask the WG you know to find a cheap, temporary flat for you? Tell her the more you can save on hotel costs, the more you can spend on her! Good luck.

[BadinSweet]

Come on, you really believe the girls when they tell you the price of their apartment rents? Sale school 101 tells you not to trust a seller on these topics.

Most girls don't live alone. They share the apartment with perhaps 1 or 2 other girls. And going by market rates for student flats, it shouldn't cost them more than perhaps 500 euro a month per person. Plus electricity, internet and so on.

I don't see a reason why they need to lie about the apartment cost. It's not like I am renting an apartment from them. If they are going to lie about it I would think they would say that it is more expensive than they are paying. So, they can claim that they need money to pay for the rent, no money left, etc. Instead of saying it being so low. Keep in mind though that these are not like a typical apartment. Some are just a dingy hotel with small room and bathroom, dorm, etc.

I see some low daily rate in NRW on AirBnb. Maybe I will just migrate up there. Thanks everyone for the inputs.

[Akibono]

Even when people book a girl for just one day, they are paying 800 to a grand in most cases, which comes to a discount of 60% to 65% from stated rate. I know some mongers mentioned they have booked girls for longer periods, a few days to a few weeks for example, but never mentioned any rates. I would think the discount rate should expand the longer you book, no? Say, 80% discount brings to roughly 14 grand a month -- Is that how much a relatively popular girl would make in a month, after entry fee? Not sure but my guess is that many girls might take such an offer (if they like and trust the guy).

Mr Ho and Cane are always telling us to outsource sex, and even Syzy said that many times. When you look at the above 14 K calculation, many rich guys are spending multiple times that much for their wives, and in a cold calculated way, perhaps Cane and MrH are right. Becker paid several million for a few minutes of bath rooom sex (and she looks hideous, he clearly needs better tastes) and now is bankrupt. There was this billionaire called Wildenstein who paid something like 3 billion for 20 years of marriage at the time of divorce, which comes to more than 15K per hour.

It's called being in love instead of fucking. There is a difference.