German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[Hessen Bub]

but definitely a very big majority and the vast majority of Romanian / Bulgarian Girls are controlled by individuals or groups. Now this does not mean that they are always controlled by gangs. But they may be paying a male relatives or "friends".

The reality is that most women continue to pay a percentage of their income (in extreme cases most of their income) to the individual or group even after the debt has been paid. Yes once the debt has been paid they are free to work as independents but they are also free to be leaned on by other individuals or groups. The tendency is for the vast majority of the women To continue to pay a percentage for protection to the original individual or group

Both these quotes state that way over 50% of the girls are not working independently, this is what you wrote. What's the source for that? Which clubs are you referring to?

HB

[Neutron Flux]

There will always be a majority of FKK mongers (and probably ISG members) who don't see the bigger picture because they are either too inexperienced, too dumb, they refuse to believe that one of their favourite pleasures is tainted that way, they refuse to accept that they help shady businesses that way and so forth (or multiple of the above). Nothing can be done, that's just the way it works, and not exclusive to this business.

It's not like the majority of FKK girls are trafficked slaves, in fact, some of these girls probably have more personal freedom than the average worker, but the notion that organised crime is anything but a major player in ALL FKKs is, in short, quite wrong. To realize how much money is diverted in some directions you just need to look at FKK car parks when closing time nears.

A few thinking points: Actually I believe that if the WGs would be fully independent and properly taxed like other businesses, something the authorities did not accomplish yet, many would end up having less money than now, paying very little tax and some shares to 'protection'. And, you know, some of the most GFE girls are those who are most tightly controlled.

[ZeevZ]

As you don't stop repeating that. It is only partly true. It is not the major part of girls in FKK / Saunaclubs who get abused, this is simply untrue.

HB

It is not untrue Hessen Bub, unfortunately my experience of being a regular of most clubs since many years has teached me that not only and simply the major part of the girls are abused but the percentages indicated by Kommodore are more than true. I would also easily say that at least 75% of the girls are in a way or in an other everything but independent and really free to decide of their lifes.

That's all.

Moreover, being a man of such long and wide experience as you are, you should not try to keep your feet in two different shoes. Either you agree with what Kommodore says or you say traffiking is not a real major problem. You posts seems to me a bit too much like the Roman God "Giano" who had two faces. Maybe I am wrong and didn't understand clearly what is your position on the issue raised by Kommodore and Indi Companion.

[ZeevZ]

Thank you for your post Indi and I completely agree that it is important for everyone who reads these forum pages to have some understanding of the reality of these clubs. Sure they are fun places to go but let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that this is a happy male Disneyland where everything in the garden is rosey! A perfect world it is not and there is a darker side to these clubs which should be understood. At least then members of this forum will know what they are talking about and not sound foolish to members who actually know the score! The subject under discussion has been until recently something that has not been discussed, swept under the carpet and somewhat taboo. I believe it is good that these clubs are seen for what they are. I will still travel to Hessen and NRW and enjoy my FKK / Sauna Club visits but just like you I do not want to deceive myself. I like to know what is reality.

I wish you good fortune.

K

Kommodore, I agree with you and Indi Companion. This topics should be discussed and the people should know what's going on the dark side of prostitution and particularly of FKK / Sauna Clubs.

But then, do not forget that most of the time mongers are often poor on the side of sensibility in order to "save" their coscience. Therefore, they prefer or pretend not to see what is obvious and in full light for anyone who is not an occasional visitor of these places.

I am suprised that senior memeber that I always liked to read show such attitude and do not admit what is simple reality and simply evident. However, to anyone it's own. They will continue to buy the bullshit the girls say them just to gratify their egos and feel themself morally comfortable with what they are doing in the clubs with most likely families at home.

[ZeevZ]

Dreams,

With respect, seeing some of the comments made by ISG members, there are those that think that these girls in the main are doing this job for fun and independently. Some may not have thought about it or refuse to see these happenings being discussed about the controls and the exploitation. That is all.

I agree with you Yakob. In my many years of experience I have witnessed the fact that the very large majority of the girls can be happier or sadier because they made more or less money but almost no one would freely choose to be a prostitue.

[Kommodore]

But yes, we are on the same side, FKKs are trying to cover the dark side od the business which is there. Girls are being pimped, trafficked, used, they have to make a certain amount of money per month and can't keep it, all the bad / sad stuff. And most men don't want to see it, they want to believe in Disneyland.

You are incorrect. I am implying what you yourself have said above and as I set out in my previous post (below). I am content to agree with you on the above point and have said so previously. Any other implication is in your imagination. At no point have I said anything like what you are implying. Please have the courtesy not to put words in my mouth or to paraphrase incorrectly what I am saying.

K

[The Cane]

Those who throw around accusations of racism about clubs with door policies might also do well to remember that the clubs owners / management might also have unseen concerns that fuel such policies. You know what they say about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

Two wrongs don't make anything right.

[Hessen Bub]

This is NOT what I said. I know English may not be your first language.

I said the following "The whole Sex Industry in Germany (including FKK / Sauna Clubs) is infiltrated to a major degree by organised crime. Women are trafficked and abused in every large FKK / Sauna club the lenght and breath of Deutschland"

I am saying that organised crime has infiltrated the Sex Industry in Germany in a very big way and that every FKK / Sauna Club in Germany has problems relating to this, including women who are trafficked and abused. Please read what I write and not what you think I write.

English is not my first language. But I read what you wrote and what you are implying. You are trying to make people believe that most of the girls are being trafficked and abused. That's not the case. A lot of girls are scared or stupid enough to have a husband, friend, manager, pimp taking their money, not taking the steps necessary to become independent because they are scared and have a twisted picture of Germany's law inforcement situation.

And yes, ALL the girls are there to make money. It's a job they do because they come from the poorest part of the EU. And because they get used to the steady flow of big money it's hard to turn their back to the business. It's OK to tell ISG members to not be blinded by the clean wellness or disco atmosphere. I trust most clients know why the girls are here. Others don't, and they never want or will understand.

HB

[Yakob]

And, besides this, do you really think that we are all, ISG members, so dumb that we would think that all Wgs are just doing it alone, and for fun?

Please stop patronizing, this is a monger forum, and, by definition, everyone on this forum has dealt with his own moral issue with regards prostitution. And if you really want to go on discussing this, please do so in the appropriate dedicated thread.

Dreams,

With respect, seeing some of the comments made by ISG members, there are those that think that these girls in the main are doing this job for fun and independently. Some may not have thought about it or refuse to see these happenings being discussed about the controls and the exploitation. That is all.

[Kommodore]

As you don't stop repeating that. It is only partly true. It is not the major part of girls in FKK / Saunaclubs who get abused, this is simply untrue.

HB

This is NOT what I said. I know English may not be your first language.

I said the following "The whole Sex Industry in Germany (including FKK / Sauna Clubs) is infiltrated to a major degree by organised crime. Women are trafficked and abused in every large FKK / Sauna club the lenght and breath of Deutschland"

I am saying that organised crime has infiltrated the Sex Industry in Germany in a very big way and that every FKK / Sauna Club in Germany has problems relating to this, including women who are trafficked and abused. Please read what I write and not what you think I write.

What exactly is your objective here? Are you a priest? Trying to preach the gospel to us all, sinners?

And, besides this, do you really think that we are all, ISG members, so dumb that we would think that all Wgs are just doing it alone, and for fun?

Please stop patronizing, this is a monger forum, and, by definition, everyone on this forum has dealt with his own moral issue with regards prostitution. And if you really want to go on discussing this, please do so in the appropriate dedicated thread.

I am no priest but my gospel is this. I am completely sick and tired of reading the most stupid statements written by members of this forum who come to Germany on an occasional basis and then write comments and make moral judgements about the FKK / Sauna Clubs and the girls who work in the clubs. No I don't think that ALL ISG Members are dumb but SOME certainly are. Particularly the ones who travel to Germany on an occassional basis and think that they are experts. They completely ignore bigger issues. For instance the door policy at GoldenTime is constantly called into question. Have they got a racist door policy or not. Well YES they do! Caused by many reasons including the involvement of organised crime. But don't make stupid statements about this club and ignore bigger issues which affect the whole of the German Sex Industry and all FKK / Sauna Clubs in particular.

If I sound preachy, it is because I write what I write expecting to be attacked, mis-read and mis-quoted. This is not about moral issues surrounding prostitution. It is about stupid comments and redicules moral concerns which are constantly raised in this Section of ISG by members who need to know better. I am lifting the rock and letting the light of day shine on all the worms and bugs that wriggle and crawl around underneath. Not everyone is going to like what they see underneath the rock. Thats not my concern. If we are going to talk about morality, well lets speak about the bigger picture and not just about whether some Turk or Arab can get inside the door of GoldenTime. Members should stop making comments and seeking brownie points because they think they are fighting some false battle against racism.

[Angus Magee]

I want ISG members to understand the bigger picture.

I believe that everyone should be made aware of how the industry is run so they can better understand why sometimes women are desperate to make money in the clubs. Lets all be wise.

I believe this is the main thrust behind Komadore's somewhat wordy diatribe of late. I can not say that I disagree with the message just that the messenger comes across a wee preachy.

Those who throw around accusations of racism about clubs with door policies might also do well to remember that the clubs owners / management might also have unseen concerns that fuel such policies. You know what they say about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

[Dreams]

. I want ISG members to understand the bigger picture.

K

What exactly is your objective here? Are you a priest? Trying to preach the gospel to us all, sinners?

And, besides this, do you really think that we are all, ISG members, so dumb that we would think that all Wgs are just doing it alone, and for fun?

Please stop patronizing, this is a monger forum, and, by definition, everyone on this forum has dealt with his own moral issue with regards prostitution. And if you really want to go on discussing this, please do so in the appropriate dedicated thread.

Thanks

[Hessen Bub]

Now I would have to say that I genuinely believe that you underestimate the situation

The whole Sex Industry in Germany (including FKK / Sauna Clubs) is infiltrated to a major degree by organised crime. Women are trafficked and abused in every large FKK / Sauna club the lenght and breath of Deutschland

As you don't stop repeating that. It is only partly true. It is not the major part of girls in FKK / Saunaclubs who get abused, this is simply untrue.

HB

[Kommodore]

Hey Kommodore, great piece!

This is all correct what you write, from A to Z. This issue has been discussed many times and also lately both on this thread and on the World thread.

The percentages given by you are more than correct.

As I wrote many times and as you do now, running prostitution today does not necessarily and only mean that a girl has a pimp / boyfriend who simply forces her with violence every morning to go to work. Prostitution and all the crime behind it has evolved, particularly in places like this clubs.

But then, as I wrote many times, the hypocritical and false morale of some "family guys" who need to think that they are not helping such business and get the feeling of not doing anything wrong, makes the very same people blind and deaf towards what happens behind the courtains of clubs.

No matter, we know exactly what happens, myself I have been around too too long for not knowing all details behind that but then, if anyone wants info, please read back the mentioned threads and open your eyes.

I prefer to know reality than making a fool of myself. And all this does not make me stop from my favorite hobby, of course, but at least I have the decency not to lie to myself.

People should always remeber what a way of saying of my country says: "sometimes it is better to keep silent seeming a fool than to speak proving to be a fool", but then often they forget about this smart rule.

However, thanks Kommodore for your post and for sharing your infos and your thoughts.

Thank you for your post Indi and I completely agree that it is important for everyone who reads these forum pages to have some understanding of the reality of these clubs. Sure they are fun places to go but let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that this is a happy male Disneyland where everything in the garden is rosey! A perfect world it is not and there is a darker side to these clubs which should be understood. At least then members of this forum will know what they are talking about and not sound foolish to members who actually know the score! The subject under discussion has been until recently something that has not been discussed, swept under the carpet and somewhat taboo. I believe it is good that these clubs are seen for what they are. I will still travel to Hessen and NRW and enjoy my FKK / Sauna Club visits but just like you I do not want to deceive myself. I like to know what is reality.

I wish you good fortune

K

[Kommodore]

But yes, we are on the same side, FKKs are trying to cover the dark side of the business which is there. Girls are being pimped, trafficked, used, they have to make a certain amount of money per month and can't keep it, all the bad / sad stuff. And most men don't want to see it, they want to believe in Disneyland.

I think what you have said above is the main message that I too wish to get accross to this forum.

Now I would have to say that I genuinely believe that you underestimate the situation and by the same token I am sure you think I overestimate. I think we are both genuine in our beliefs and anyway there is no point arguing over percentages, because the main message as you have outlined above will be lost. Even if we do differ I do believe that we are at least on the same page. I want the guys who read this forum to wise up and stop making stupid ascersions about the clubs and the women who work in these clubs. I want ISG members to understand the bigger picture.

I think we can both agree that this would be a good thing.

I wish you well.

K