German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[Dreams]

. I want ISG members to understand the bigger picture.

K

What exactly is your objective here? Are you a priest? Trying to preach the gospel to us all, sinners?

And, besides this, do you really think that we are all, ISG members, so dumb that we would think that all Wgs are just doing it alone, and for fun?

Please stop patronizing, this is a monger forum, and, by definition, everyone on this forum has dealt with his own moral issue with regards prostitution. And if you really want to go on discussing this, please do so in the appropriate dedicated thread.

Thanks

[Hessen Bub]

Now I would have to say that I genuinely believe that you underestimate the situation

The whole Sex Industry in Germany (including FKK / Sauna Clubs) is infiltrated to a major degree by organised crime. Women are trafficked and abused in every large FKK / Sauna club the lenght and breath of Deutschland

As you don't stop repeating that. It is only partly true. It is not the major part of girls in FKK / Saunaclubs who get abused, this is simply untrue.

HB

[Kommodore]

Hey Kommodore, great piece!

This is all correct what you write, from A to Z. This issue has been discussed many times and also lately both on this thread and on the World thread.

The percentages given by you are more than correct.

As I wrote many times and as you do now, running prostitution today does not necessarily and only mean that a girl has a pimp / boyfriend who simply forces her with violence every morning to go to work. Prostitution and all the crime behind it has evolved, particularly in places like this clubs.

But then, as I wrote many times, the hypocritical and false morale of some "family guys" who need to think that they are not helping such business and get the feeling of not doing anything wrong, makes the very same people blind and deaf towards what happens behind the courtains of clubs.

No matter, we know exactly what happens, myself I have been around too too long for not knowing all details behind that but then, if anyone wants info, please read back the mentioned threads and open your eyes.

I prefer to know reality than making a fool of myself. And all this does not make me stop from my favorite hobby, of course, but at least I have the decency not to lie to myself.

People should always remeber what a way of saying of my country says: "sometimes it is better to keep silent seeming a fool than to speak proving to be a fool", but then often they forget about this smart rule.

However, thanks Kommodore for your post and for sharing your infos and your thoughts.

Thank you for your post Indi and I completely agree that it is important for everyone who reads these forum pages to have some understanding of the reality of these clubs. Sure they are fun places to go but let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that this is a happy male Disneyland where everything in the garden is rosey! A perfect world it is not and there is a darker side to these clubs which should be understood. At least then members of this forum will know what they are talking about and not sound foolish to members who actually know the score! The subject under discussion has been until recently something that has not been discussed, swept under the carpet and somewhat taboo. I believe it is good that these clubs are seen for what they are. I will still travel to Hessen and NRW and enjoy my FKK / Sauna Club visits but just like you I do not want to deceive myself. I like to know what is reality.

I wish you good fortune

K

[Kommodore]

But yes, we are on the same side, FKKs are trying to cover the dark side of the business which is there. Girls are being pimped, trafficked, used, they have to make a certain amount of money per month and can't keep it, all the bad / sad stuff. And most men don't want to see it, they want to believe in Disneyland.

I think what you have said above is the main message that I too wish to get accross to this forum.

Now I would have to say that I genuinely believe that you underestimate the situation and by the same token I am sure you think I overestimate. I think we are both genuine in our beliefs and anyway there is no point arguing over percentages, because the main message as you have outlined above will be lost. Even if we do differ I do believe that we are at least on the same page. I want the guys who read this forum to wise up and stop making stupid ascersions about the clubs and the women who work in these clubs. I want ISG members to understand the bigger picture.

I think we can both agree that this would be a good thing.

I wish you well.

K

[Hessen Bub]

Look I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. You may not have liked my more complete explanation of your debt payment scenario. I believe that you have something to do with one of the German Language FKK / Sauna Club Forums (moderator and/or proprietor). I enjoy the FKK / Sauna Clubs as do you. I also know of many women working in these clubs who are not controlled and who are making a very good living out of the business. But most of the women in my oppinion (75% at least) are paying some money (and this may be as little as 5% of their takings) to individuals or groups. However, in very many cases it is an awful lot more money than this. You even state yourself that the independent women you know were at some point paying a pimp, a manager (a friend?).

If "paying money" to someone includes helping the family or relatives. Yes, then probably more than 95% of the girls are paying money to an individual or group. But independent girls (Romanians, I heard other rumors about Bulgarian girls) are not paying aything for protection to anybody. Not even 5.

But yes, we are on the same side, FKKs are trying to cover the dark side od the business which is there. Girls are being pimped, trafficked, used, they have to make a certain amount of money per month and can't keep it, all the bad / sad stuff. And most men don't want to see it, they want to believe in Disneyland.

HB

[Kommodore]

That's not true for quite a few girls I got to know better. There was NO payment for any protection to "Romanian gangs". You are exaggerating. They were free to do whatever they want. Working independently, at different clubs all over Germany. Some after getting rid of their pimp / manager / friend. Others are controlled 24h by managers and girls in the club. But no reason to generalize.

Look I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. You may not have liked my more complete explanation of your debt payment scenario. I believe that you have something to do with one of the German Language FKK / Sauna Club Forums (moderator and/or proprietor). I enjoy the FKK / Sauna Clubs as do you. I also know of many women working in these clubs who are not controlled and who are making a very good living out of the business. But most of the women in my oppinion (75% at least) are paying some money (and this may be as little as 5% of their takings) to individuals or groups. However, in very many cases it is an awful lot more money than this. You even state yourself that the independent women you know were at some point paying a pimp, a manager (a friend?).

That is true. They do control women, but not ALL the women as you are trying to make people believe. And it is true for all thr variations of paysex.

I'm afraid you are exaggerating. I never said all the women were controlled by gangs but definitely a very big majority and the vast majority of Romanian / Bulgarian Girls are controlled by individuals or groups. Now this does not mean that they are always controlled by gangs. But they may be paying a male relatives or "friends". The reality of the situation is that most of these girls are not turning up at the door of World / Acapulco / Oase from the back streets of Bucharest without the help of some individual or group and for this service continued payments is very often expected and must consequently be made.

Look I actually don't think there is that much difference in our oppinions. Perhaps where we place our emphasis. This is not a black and white matter and there are shades of grey in between. I accept this fact. I also accept you know a lot about the Sex Trade in Germany. But although I have very few posts on this forum, please believe that I have an awful lot of experience too and not just in Germany. However, I see no reason to sugar coat this business and better that there is an understanding that these clubs have a darker side than the Male Disneyland idea that is too prevalent on this forum. Believe me, for every girl I know who is making a good living at this business, I can also name another who is on drugs and in debt to gangs / individuals or who is afraid for her life or the lives of her family. Most of the women in the clubs fall somewhere along the scale between both extremes.

I wish you well.

[Hessen Bub]

The tendency is for the vast majority of the women to continue to pay a percentage for protection to the original individual or group. If you are a Romanian WG perhaps you would prefer to continue to pay for protection by the Romanian Gang who brought you to Germany in the first place and not run the risk of being leaned on by the Bikers or by the Albanian or Russian Mafia.

That's not true for quite a few girls I got to know better. There was NO payment for any protection to "Romanian gangs". You are exaggerating. They were free to do whatever they want. Working independently, at different clubs all over Germany. Some after getting rid of their pimp / manager / friend. Others are controlled 24h by managers and girls in the club. But no reason to generalize.

The FKK/Sauna Club concept is an ingenious creation and a fun place to go for pay sex. I'm a regular myself. But lets not fool ourselves that this is Disneyland. Organisied crime may not own the physical building but they control the women and make profit from the German Sex industry and in this case from FKK/Sauna Clubs.

That is true. They do control women, but not ALL the women as you are trying to make people believe. And it is true for all thr variations of paysex.

HB

[Indi Companion]

The FKK/Sauna Club concept is an ingenious creation and a fun place to go for pay sex. I'm a regular myself. But lets not fool ourselves that this is Disneyland. Organisied crime may not own the physical building but they control the women and make profit from the German Sex industry and from FKK/Sauna Clubs in particular.

Kommodore, thanks for sharing your point of view and experience but I think your effort is a waste of time, some adults here still believe fairy tales.

[Indi Companion]

Young EE girls usually come to German FKKs with "help". They have to pay back a debt. When this is paid back they can work for themselves and be free and independent. Can. A percentage of the girls will be able to take that step, others don't.

HB

This is one of the ways EE girls are then binded to pay. However, I know many "german" girls who have a pimp since many years. One of my favorites got rid of her pimp when he got arrested. He was quite obviously an "emerit" member of the most famous German Gang.

[Kommodore]

Young EE girls usually come to German FKKs with "help". They have to pay back a debt. When this is paid back they can work for themselves and be free and independent. A percentage of the girls will be able to take that step, others don't.

There are many forms of debt bondage used by groups and individuals to control the women working in the German sex industry. The type of debt bondage as you outline above is perhaps one of the better sounding ones.

The reality is that most women continue to pay a percentage of their income (in extreme cases most of their income) to the individual or group even after the debt has been paid. Yes once the debt has been paid they are free to work as independents but they are also free to be leaned on by other individuals or groups. The tendency is for the vast majority of the women to continue to pay a percentage for protection to the original individual or group. If you are a Romanian WG perhaps you would prefer to continue to pay for protection by the Romanian Gang who brought you to Germany in the first place and not run the risk of being leaned on by the Bikers or by the Albanian or Russian Mafia.

The FKK/Sauna Club concept is an ingenious creation and a fun place to go for pay sex. I'm a regular myself. But lets not fool ourselves that this is Disneyland. Organisied crime may not own the physical building but they control the women and make profit from the German Sex industry and in this case from FKK/Sauna Clubs. I believe that everyone should be made aware of how the industry is run so they can better understand why sometimes women are desperate to make money in the clubs. Lets all be wise. Why have half the members of this German Section left in the dark?

[Hessen Bub]

Young EE girls usually come to German FKKs with "help". They have to pay back a debt. When this is paid back they can work for themselves and be free and independent. Can. A percentage of the girls will be able to take that step, others don't.

HB

[Indi Companion]

And I find the numbers given below hard to believe too. Do you have anything to back this up?

90% of Romanian girls?

Of all the 10-12 Romanian girls at GT, I know 5 or 6 are independent to the point where:

They work when they like

They move to clubs when they like.

They ask me which clubs are good / bad

They fly into Germany when they like.

They rent their own apartments in and around the area.

They have their own cars.

They are open to seeing me and others outside the clubs.

They openly tell me "some" girls are controlled by pimps. About 1 in 5 and that's club specific (higher at Aca and Oase)

when in reality probably 75% of all the women (90% in the case of Romanian / Bulgarian women) in all the clubs are either run by gangs or are paying protection to some group or individual.

Wow, see'mon Simex, you have been around since long enough to know the truth, at least I thought it thinking back to the fact that 3/4 years ago you were already roaming around in NRW!

Do you really and seriously think that the list of facts you wrote down proves that a girl is totally free?

Man, these girls have budgets and targets to meet. That's all. Of course they can sometimes choose the club, they rent their apartments (it would be quite foolish for a pimp to rent the apartment or buy the car in his own name, much better if everything stays on the name of the girl otherwise where would the money the pimp uses for buying such goods come, if anyone asks him about? Ever heard of tax and criminal law?).

But I always find amusing when someone who has been around for so long still buys what the girls tell him. Man, the girls usually tend to tell the customer what the customers likes to hear.

Man, in GT by the own words of many of the historical german workers, around 80 percent of the girls are controlled, in a way or in an other.

So think about places like ACA, Magnum, Oase or World. With my buddy we had a funny talk in Palace over this issue with one very well known provider I know since long. She admitted herself to be pimped and we made a game, of the first 10 girls passing by she told us who was for sure pimped and who she didn't know. The count was 7 out of 10 and these were the girls she was sure about.

Over Christmas, in Sharks a new girls talked openly about it and she told us: I do not htink you can set foot here inside if you are Romanian without having a pimp. But she also said us she was fine with that, with 50 percent of what she earned for herself she was proportionally making a lot of money considering the average salary in Romania, so she didn't have anything to blame about it. She then obviously confirmed that all girls usually swear to the clients that they are free, they have their own cars, they rent their own apartments and live with other girls, keep all the money for themself, etc, etc. Of course, bla, bla, bla for these who need to hear that for their coscience, that's all!

What Kommodore wrote is the simple reality, accept it or not.

[Indi Companion]

I'm surprised if the number is not higher. I would think once a club has gang influence, the "independents" would be pressured for protection as well.

That regularly happens. Than it is a question of the management how to handle this kind of situation. There are clubs where the gangs are direct shareholders and nothing is done, there are clubs where this is not the case where they try to keep a balance by admitting anyone and looking the other way when anything happens.

[Indi Companion]

Continued from Magnum Saunaclub Thread

This is not what I said. I said that 75% of all the women (90% in the case of Romanian / Bulgarian women) in all the clubs are either run by gangs or are paying protection to some group or individual.

All the main organised crime organisations in Germany are involved in prostitution. Hells Angels (and other Biker Gangs) , Romanian Criminal Syndicates, Russian Maffia, Albanian Gangs etc etc. Why not? It is a very, very profitable business and why should Germany be different to any other country in Western Europe? Some of these gangs are actual investors in German FKK / Sauna Clubs and brothels but by in large they are content to organise women to work in these establishments. As for the individuals they can range from Romanian / Bulgarian "boyfriends" who travel with their girlfriend and maybe her sister or cousin, to managers who organise work for a number of women. The women are not necessarily forced into the business but they are organised by groups and individuals. As I said earlier (in a previous post) a club like GoldenTime may have a higher proportion of independent girls than clubs like Acapulco or World. But nevertheless there is definitely a gang presence in GT which partially influences the door policy. Without question some girls in this business are forced to work others may just pay a percentage of their earnings to a manager or perhaps just pay a sum for "protection". If you want to believe what you are told by the girls working in the clubs that is up to you but the reality is very different to what the occasional visitor to the FKK or Sauna Club is told. In general few Romanian or Bulgarian girls are in Germany alone and not influenced by at least a single individual or gang. There was an interesting discussion about this topic in the German FKK Lounge Area back in December 2012 & January 2013 which is in line with what I am saying here. Worth checking out. Some of the posts should be in the ROD Thread. Three examples of girls of my aquaintance who I got to know in the FKK Clubs of Hessen & NRW in the last 18 months. One girl (and her friends) has worked for a Romanian Gang in four different European Countries in the past 2 years. From Spain to Germany and 2 other European countries hundreds of kilometers from both Germany and Spain. Another girl is controlled by a Biker Organisation and a third was brought to Germany by her Romanian Cousins Boyfriend who receive a percentage of her income. The organised nature of the prostitution business in Romania and the involvement of organised criminal gangs in this business has made it necessary for the Romania Government to launch a programme of education aimed at girls in High School warning them about the risk of involvement with gangs, travel to Northern Europe and prostitution. Look I don't tell this information to shock or frighten anyone. These facts don't stop me visiting the clubs. Prostitution has always been a business in which organised crime has been involved. This has not changed. It won't stop me visiting the clubs. But please don't believe all these stories about girls saving money to study in university in Bucharest or to pay for Momma's heart operation. Give me a break.

Look my point is this. How can anyone sensibly refuse on moral grounds to go to GoldenTime because of their refusal to allow entrance to Blacks, Arabs, Turks and North Africans when the whole f*cking business (all over Germany) has huge involvement by organised crime. Makes no sense. Look we may haggle about the percentage involvement but the thrust of my argument is based on fact. Know the facts and not what some Romanian Ho tells you after poist-coital bliss!

Hey Kommodore, great piece!

This is all correct what you write, from A to Z. This issue has been discussed many times and also lately both on this thread and on the World thread.

The percentages given by you are more than correct.

As I wrote many times and as you do now, running prostitution today does not necessarily and only mean that a girl has a pimp / boyfriend who simply forces her with violence every morning to go to work. Prostitution and all the crime behind it has evolved, particularly in places like this clubs.

But then, as I wrote many times, the hypocritical and false morale of some "family guys" who need to think that they are not helping such business and get the feeling of not doing anything wrong, makes the very same people blind and deaf towards what happens behind the courtains of clubs.

No matter, we know exactly what happens, myself I have been around too too long for not knowing all details behind that but then, if anyone wants info, please read back the mentioned threads and open your eyes.

I prefer to know reality than making a fool of myself. And all this does not make me stop from my favorite hobby, of course, but at least I have the decency not to lie to myself.

People should always remeber what a way of saying of my country says: "sometimes it is better to keep silent seeming a fool than to speak proving to be a fool", but then often they forget about this smart rule.

However, thanks Kommodore for your post and for sharing your infos and your thoughts.

[Trans Atlantic]

Continued from Magnum Saunaclub ThreadThis is not what I said. I said that 75% of all the women (90% in the case of Romanian / Bulgarian women) in all the clubs are either run by gangs or are paying protection to some group or individual.

I'm surprised if the number is not higher. I would think once a club has gang influence, the "independents" would be pressured for protection as well.