German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[Banana Boi]

I like cim finish. But some girls promise to do it, then pull away. What do you do.

Spend the 50 euro you just saved on the next girl. .

Are you better off haveing a session shortly after arriving or waiting an hour or so to get yourself acclimated. It seems like after you bat away the first ten the others seem to loose interest.

Have a session when you see the girl you want to go with, whether it be within minutes or an hour after you arrive. If no one asks you then walk up to whoever you want and ask her. She isn't going to say no and girls really appreciate guys who ask.

[Tjohoo]

I am trying to book well known ETAP hoteles but ACCOR web site shows them as Ibis Budget with remark "Ex- Etap".

Service is still as at ETAPs, or front desk as st Ibis? What changes have been made?

Thanks

No change at all, except the "new" name. Same check-in, same front desk service as before. At least in Hamburg, Ratingen, Willich and Köln.

My guess it's a move just to get a brand that they have full control over and that they can develop and aim at the right customer group.

Go to etap (dot) com, and you will come to a homepage that is promoting some "power system software". Check out the colours, the logo, the typography and the struckture of the homepage. Either the hotel chain or the software company are "ripping" the other off (or they are cooperating).

I hope that the change will not affect the price level in the wrong direction.

T

[StarletVoyager]

I would expect rates to be between etap and ibis levels and it seems they may have redecorated the old etaps to make them look more modern and so charge a higher rate.

[Reporter2010]

I am trying to book well known ETAP hoteles but ACCOR web site shows them as Ibis Budget with remark "Ex- Etap". Service is still as at ETAPs, or front desk as st Ibis? What changes have been made?

I believe it's just a change to the branding, not the service. Management believes the Ibis name is better known than ETAP and wants to capitalise on that. Similarly, the former "All Seasons" hotels are becoming "Ibis Styles". So there are now three sorts of Ibis.

[Katinka]

Are you better off haveing a session shortly after arriving or waiting an hour or so to get yourself acclimated. It seems like after you bat away the first ten the others seem to loose interest.

[Katinka]

I like cim finish. But some girls promise to do it, then pull away. What do you do.

[Jymondor]

I am trying to book well known ETAP hoteles but ACCOR web site shows them as Ibis Budget with remark "Ex- Etap".

Service is still as at ETAPs, or front desk as st Ibis? What changes have been made?

Thanks

[Member #4449]

If there is hard evidence, you should do something about it, sure, and actually I quite disagree with the line Batou took (although as others have pointed out, there's a high probability she was BSing).

This is something I have been thinking allot about, and I still do not know what the right thing to do would be, but I am not proud of my self for doing nothing.

So my question is, what do you guys think I should have done? Have anyone of you been in a similar situation, if so how did you handle it? And if this is indeed a was scam, than I can't have been the first victim.

I still believe it was real because here weird behavior, she showed me all kinds of emotions, from scared to happy and smiling to almost crying. She was all over the place, hard to explain.

She did have a DKNY watch and a IPhone, when I asked about the watch, she told me it was a gift from the "boyfriend", he gave it to her when he showed her off to his buddies.

[Hessen Bub]

I have never felt that a girl in an FKK was forced to work.

Most girls seem to be enjoying themselves, not only for the money but also the relative relaxed life.

That's what you should experience as a guest to the club.

atArtic: Go visit some clubs and see for yourself. I am not into an ideological theoretical discussion. Neutron Flux's description is right to the point.

HB

[Putantour]

Do you think that German girls are slave too? There are a lot of them in these clubs.

Anyway in my country (ITA) , cause of the laws that forbid prostitution, there is seriously the problem of slavery, exploitation, and violence on the girls that works (illegally).

I think that in a country like Germany, where laws seems working right, some heavy situations are less than we think, and I seriously hope so.

In some club where I had been staying chatting a lot with the girls, at the end of the business, a lot of time I've heard the same story: I want to save some money for buy my own house,

I need some money for the holiday, change the car, get married (your boyfriend and future husband knows what you are doing?). Well probably the most of the time, behind there is a smart boyfriend.

That say "make money and give it to me, so I buy our house and prepare for the marriage", and simply an easy girl that believe in that.

[Optimist]

Atooz. Yes everything you say is correct. But only if one defines (as you do) "pimp" as a trafficker forcing someone to do something. many people interprete "pimp" much more widely i.e. receiving some benefit from a working girl

As Neutron says there are many shades of grey

As Artic and Neutron indicate, there are complex situations. What if the "pimp" is in fact an unemployed man living with a working girl, or even a working girl who has taken a fee for introducing a new girl to the profession. There are as many variations as we have imagination for. In some cases it may amount to slavery, but in many more the element of co-ercion is more likely to be general economic circumstances. This means we should perhaps also be very worried about the conditions of the millions in debt bondage and sweated labour producing our goods in India etc.

The so called respectable companies are exploiting millions of people. And we are almost powerless to stop it. We should not reserve our morality for FKK encounters only - despite what the US debate might suggest. At least in FKK we can see the worker for ourselves and can make some kind of guess and try not to encourage any form of trafficking.

And we should also be aware that we need to reserve some awareness of the possibility that some of the girls can be excellent (intentionally or otherwise) at exploiting our own weaknesses/needs (emotional or otherwise) and are able to entrap and enslave us in various ways

Neutron - for what it's worth I also have the feeling we are entering a bubble economy so far as FKKs etc are concerned and that the inevitable crash will come. The concerted action against Hells Angels in northern Germany, the closure of street prostitution in Dortmund could be the first signs of a coming (moderate) reaction against the explosion of immigrant workers and the milieu. I say moderate reaction in view of increasing moves by the State to regularise tax payments from sex workers

[Casey69]

Your girlfriend offers you companionship, sex, etc, which are tangible benefits. Pimps by definition offer no benefits to the girls they control. Quite the contrary, they offer physical and mental harm to them.

The cook and the busboy contribute to the overall service and dining experience to the customer, which in turn contributes to the tips she receives. Pimps contribute nothing to the service the girls provide to their customers, except the coercion part that made the girls' sex service available to begin with (involuntarily by definition).

The husband shares much with the wife: apartment, cars, children, sense of family, etc, and she does have the option to leave him if she wishes and that happen quite often in real life. Pimps share nothing with the girls they control and most girls do not have the option to leave their pimps even if they wish.

The statistics on sex trafficking may be exaggerated but sex trafficking does happen and it is not a figment of our imagination. Selling sex for a living voluntarily is one thing, being forced into it is entirely different. Yes, we are all "forced" to work in some sense in order to survive. But most of us have the choice of career or means of making a living and we often choose doing something that we feel morally accepatble to ourselves and our families. For example, we all know that scamming people out of their life savings or pimping are not something our conscience (or lord if you're religious) would approve of, and we would not choose either one as our career choice. Now, whether *you* personally think selling sex is morally acceptable is besides the point. What matters is the girls' value system and if it tells them that it is an immoral and shameful thing to do, and then some pimps force them to do it, I think it is not very difficult to see how wrong it is. And I think it is not hard to see the difference between the girls being forced to sell sex for a living. Given that they perceive it to be a morally reprehensible thing to do. And us being forced to work to make a living the "normal" way.

I have never felt that a girl in an FKK was forced to work.

Girls that originate from Eastern Europe, especially Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, etc. All claim that as a waitress or as an office clerk in their own country they make about 200-300 Euro per month. This is consistent and public knowlegde.

That 300Euro is also the amount that in average most girls seem to be making in an FKK PER DAY. Assuming they have the looks and the attitude.

One newby once told me that during the first week, she didn't make less than 300 Euro per day even on the worst day of the week.

Of course these girls have a private life and people taking advantage of them personally. I have however a very hard time to believe that many of them are really forced into this.

Most girls seem to be enjoying themselves, not only for the money but also the relative relaxed life.

Just my two cents.

[Nick The G]

For those, who are in the area: starting tonight and lasting until Monday, the town of Bad Homburg celebrates the well-known "Laternenfest" (lantern festival)

http://www.bad-homburg-tourismus.de/...howid36540.htm

Program here as pdf download (in german)

http://laternenfest.de/wp-content/up...gramm-2012.pdf

For Americans: tonight Shannon McNally and Will Sexton will be on stage over there!

Might happen that you will meet some of the FKK-Oase girls over there too!

[Atooz]

What does that mean?

Doesn't my girlfriend get a percentage of that cut? She doesn't have to beat me for it. She just closes her thighs. Does that make me a slave?

Your girlfriend offers you companionship, sex, etc, which are tangible benefits. Pimps by definition offer no benefits to the girls they control. Quite the contrary, they offer physical and mental harm to them.

I tip a waitress, does she keep that money? No, because she gives some of that to the cook and the busboy too. Does that make her a slave?

The cook and the busboy contribute to the overall service and dining experience to the customer, which in turn contributes to the tips she receives. Pimps contribute nothing to the service the girls provide to their customers, except the coercion part that made the girls' sex service available to begin with (involuntarily by definition).

What about a chick that works in Walmart who has a husband who takes her paycheck? Is she a slave? Doesn't she have options to leave him if she wishes?

The husband shares much with the wife: apartment, cars, children, sense of family, etc, and she does have the option to leave him if she wishes and that happen quite often in real life. Pimps share nothing with the girls they control and most girls do not have the option to leave their pimps even if they wish.


The statistics on sex trafficking may be exaggerated but sex trafficking does happen and it is not a figment of our imagination. Selling sex for a living voluntarily is one thing, being forced into it is entirely different. Yes, we are all "forced" to work in some sense in order to survive. But most of us have the choice of career or means of making a living and we often choose doing something that we feel morally accepatble to ourselves and our families. For example, we all know that scamming people out of their life savings or pimping are not something our conscience (or lord if you're religious) would approve of, and we would not choose either one as our career choice. Now, whether *you* personally think selling sex is morally acceptable is besides the point. What matters is the girls' value system and if it tells them that it is an immoral and shameful thing to do, and then some pimps force them to do it, I think it is not very difficult to see how wrong it is. And I think it is not hard to see the difference between the girls being forced to sell sex for a living - given that they perceive it to be a morally reprehensible thing to do - and us being forced to work to make a living the "normal" way.

[Neutron Flux]

HB is quite correct in almost everything, but it's even a bit shallow to reduce it to that layer of 'good / forced girl' and 'bad boyfriend / pimp / manager' in order to get a bigger picture.

Where to start Arctic? Hard evidence. Yes, you can actually find a lot of that, just google around (don't know whether you speak German). As soon as there is hard evidence, police will get involved, sure. We are a country of law, after all. There's tons of stories, people getting arrested ('Zuhälter', German for pimp). I suggest you widen your google also a bit towards Hells Angels, Bandidos, Italian and Russian Mafia und such. I spare you the role some bribed police guys sometimes have in this.

Other than that, yes it's mostly just hearsay, but when you are around for a while, you will see a lot of things and start trying to make sense of it. A good exercise to begin with, is actually, what others have suggested, staying around for a while, when an FKK closes. Did that only very little, but you can read a lot of stories about that actually in German forums. Suffice it to say, the scenery will change quite a bit. There are also a lot of stories, where mongers have seen known girls getting beaten up at places like autobahn parking spaces and the like.

Oh yes, the girls will talk a lot of BS and it's actually quite simplistic to put them down as victims. More hearsay? Surprisingly, a lot of the girls at FKKs are no angels either. The 'unlucky girl' that just let her eyes fall onto the wrong guy. She exists, but mostly it's a wholly different story. Many girls you will meet in the clubs will have been involved in some sort of semi-legal / illegal stuff even before they start their careers. Drug dealing, theft, etc. Many of them will have criminal records not associated to their current job. This particularly, but by no means exclusively, applies to German girls you will find in clubs. As a result of this they will often have a deeper understanding of the various business schemes running in these venues, because they are often no different in mind. Also, particularly in larger clubs, its very common that there are hierarchies between the girls based on status in the club, experience, nationality etc. There are frequently girls that act as 'associate managers' and overlook other, mostly newer, girls as a side income in the club, or even just to upgrade their status with their boyfriends. There are also a lot of physical confrontations going on between the girls, and often for laughable matters. And so forth. Shades of grey.

And pimps. The idea of a pimp/'bad ass boyfriend' operating freely in any of the major FKKs / brothels is pretty much a 'romantic leftover' from past times. That happened in brothels in the 60s / 70s, and was also very violent back then. But times have long changed, as others have pointed out, there are various motorcycle gangs operating, big and small ones, Italian / Russian mafia, various groups from eastern Europe / Turkey / North Africa. And. They all have their territories. The pimps are often just as unfree as the girls because they are deeply involved in their organisation. More hearsay? Those gangs often have initiation / loyalty rituals or tests that make black saturdays look like childs birthdays. Not just hearsay though, has been attested in court several times.

It's an underworld environment and a lot of BS is happening there. BTW this will certainly not go on forever like this. Sooner or later there will be crackdown, because of the way all this has grown in the past few years and people coming from all over the world to us, you can bet on that. It's just a natural business cycle and I'the be surprised if we weren't very close to the top of it right now.

Look at your last sentence above, you're stating that you're fine with the abuses you believe are occurring and it wouldn't make the practices go away if you didn't participate in clubbing. True, but really, if you believe what you are saying then you ARE contributing to the demand of those you believe are held in sexual bondage and you aren't doing anything to help the problem, but are rather a key component in it.

You are a key component in abuse as soon as you see the light of this planet. Yes, a significant amount of your money spent in FKKs or other brothels will find its way into channels you and others will not like, but so does your money spent on pretty much everything else. But it's not our fault. After all, it's a legal and regulated business, and if there are things going wrong the idea that a customer could do a lot about it is quite laughable. Do you investigate abuses in the production chain when you buy a car or a smartphone? If there is hard evidence, you should do something about it, sure, and actually I quite disagree with the line Batou took (although as others have pointed out, there's a high probability she was BSing). And you should also avoid places that are too shady, but that's about all you can do. You should keep your compass up, yes, and try to improve things whenever you can, but if you start questioning, whenever you do something that is fun, you will have a sad life.

And, no offense Arctic, but maybe you should try to look at it from a less ideological perspective. Yes, I know, the debate in America concerning sex and other things is deeply like that, but there's no use in it, really. There's often no simple good or bad, right or wrong. You should worry less what message the USA State Dept or other governments / organisations are trying to convey to whomsoever. Nobody cares, in Europe at least.