German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[Turgid]

When I was working in Eastern Europe there was unanimous agreement amongst the expats, including many Americans, that the local product was far superior. I'm presuming that you've never visited the likes of Czech, Poland, the Baltic states or Russia during the warmer months of the year.

I've seen a higher proportion of Euro girls that keep their figure together post 30 than I ever did in the states. Partly because they smoke more, but also because they eat less junk and use public transport, or cycling, far more in Europe.

If you walk around cities in the US you will see women who are just as beautiful as in Europe. I have been to most European countries and many US cities and that is my conclusion. Back in the 70's and 80's there were many US hookers within my price range who could compete in looks with European escorts. However, things are different today. The quality of hookers who would have cost $50 an hour back in the 1980's would fetch at least $1000 an hour now. Generally, hookers who charge $500 and less do not look anywhere as good as hookers who used to charge $50 back in the day. I blame nutrition and lifestyle. If I somehow become minded to try a $1000 plus hooker I would not be able to as I do not know of any elite agency that I can trust.

[Turgid]

Osho speaks and keeps it real: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipLS...ature=youtu.be.

In my early days of mongering I went through a phase. Back in the 1970's and early1980's I used to cruise the streets of NYC in my car and pick up street hookers for BBBJ / CIM in my car. At the time I enjoyed that as much and sometimes even more than sex and sex with hookers at the time was bare back. Those were great times.

[Mr Ho]

I just spent some time thinking about the past ten years in the USA.

For a relatively long time preceding the last 10 years, the cost of a premium hour of sex in the USA in the escort world was $350-$400 an hour in most large metropolitan areas.

I believe it to now be $550-$600.

This is Las Vegas, New York City, Miami and Chicago.

LOS Angeles needs to be excluded due to the distortion created by Koreatown, although it's numbers aren't that far off.

There are some bells and whistles that have to be excluded just like with cars. BBBJ, spanking and Anal Sex is simply more of an accepted part of all sex in the last decade, particularly after overly-oppressive AIDS sex education was lessened and mainstream internet articles began discussing alternative sexual activities. Sometimes you get more activities in an hour than you used to. And your standard car now has more safety features and cool electronics. This is a good thing and deserves some inflation.

Inflation in the commercial sex industry occurs in sudden shocks....

So there were many efforts by entrepreneurs to do proper prostitution ventures in USA, but fed cracked in each time something was set up properly for mongers!

I think it is due to how America really is, as freedom as they may like to portray, which they are when it comes to unusual thing like guns, but when it comes to sex, somehow, it become really strict! Why? I think it is to do with how religious America really is behind the scene!? Am I right?

On the other hand, in Europe too, it tend to be only in German speaking part of Europe that only has the proper set up for prostitution namely FKK! What is the relation between proper opened legally controlled prostitution format and German speaking part? Are Germans more kinky and liberal enough to admit the need of sex in society matched with their good organization or what is it with German speaking part and good prostitution format that is so open!?

[Mursenary]

When I was working in Eastern Europe there was unanimous agreement amongst the expats, including many Americans, that the local product was far superior. I'm presuming that you've never visited the likes of Czech, Poland, the Baltic states or Russia during the warmer months of the year.
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I've seen a higher proportion of Euro girls that keep their figure together post 30 than I ever did in the states. Partly because they smoke more, but also because they eat less junk and use public transport, or cycling, far more in Europe.

For sure most Euro girls keep in better shape post 30, might even be able to lower that threshold to 25-26 really.

Never been to Russia or the Baltics but can't say that I was blown away with Polish or any Slavic peoples when visiting those areas. Superior in daily presentation yes, but not so much my experience regarding natural beauty. I'm the type of guy who prefers a woman in a pony tail wearing short shorts and a tight t-shirt or a sun dress over a chic, fashion-forward, runway type though.

Anyway, it's subjectively really. Point was that American girls get too much of a bad rap especially when looking back fondly on my university years.

[Samplerr]

As for women, I think we get a bad rap for civilian women. Regarding young women, they are just as pretty as the European counterparts, especially in the American South (People think Californian girls are hot but let me tell you, the perceived hotness of girls in that state is a sham.) I would take the sorority girls I knew in college over most FKK girls.

When I was working in Eastern Europe there was unanimous agreement amongst the expats, including many Americans, that the local product was far superior. I'm presuming that you've never visited the likes of Czech, Poland, the Baltic states or Russia during the warmer months of the year.

It's just unfortunate that lifestyle and diet means they end up obese by the time they are 30. But let's be honest, don't the over-30 ladies in Europe tend to be a bit heavy also?

I've seen a higher proportion of Euro girls that keep their figure together post 30 than I ever did in the states. Partly because they smoke more, but also because they eat less junk and use public transport, or cycling, far more in Europe.

[Mr Ho]

What's wrong with Geneva? Looking at a site like geneva. Girls ch looks promising.

For normal girls market, Geneve is amazing especially going out in disco like Java if you know the crowd, and also for pro girls, escorts in Geneve is good, there used to be amazing agency called Barbara agency which had amazing stunner girls, but costed you 1000 CHF for I think it was 3 hours! And there are some individual ones, but those I never tried to risk just in case as I have high standard for girl I like to fuck, they have to be stunner level beauty!

However, when it comes to FKK format, there are basically none in Geneve, there are few brothels on route de Bern which are real bad as far as I know and there was one front of Balexert in residential area called Villa 22 (I forgot the number, but it wad Villa something), but they are not FKK set up, so if I were to live in Geneve again, I would commute to Zurich to go to globe!

I always tend to prefer German speaking part of Europe for mongering and other places, I managed, but stunners are harder to find always! It is something to do with German speaking part and good prostitution setup and culture LOL why? I wonder!

[Akibono]

I just spent some time thinking about the past ten years in the USA.

For a relatively long time preceding the last 10 years, the cost of a premium hour of sex in the USA in the escort world was $350-$400 an hour in most large metropolitan areas.

I believe it to now be $550-$600.

This is Las Vegas, New York City, Miami and Chicago.

LOS Angeles needs to be excluded due to the distortion created by Koreatown, although it's numbers aren't that far off.

There are some bells and whistles that have to be excluded just like with cars. BBBJ, spanking and Anal Sex is simply more of an accepted part of all sex in the last decade, particularly after overly-oppressive AIDS sex education was lessened and mainstream internet articles began discussing alternative sexual activities. Sometimes you get more activities in an hour than you used to. And your standard car now has more safety features and cool electronics. This is a good thing and deserves some inflation.

Inflation in the commercial sex industry occurs in sudden shocks...

Excellent report. Belongs in the ROD.

[Pessimist]

I just spent some time thinking about the past ten years in the USA.

For a relatively long time preceding the last 10 years, the cost of a premium hour of sex in the USA in the escort world was $350-$400 an hour in most large metropolitan areas.

I believe it to now be $550-$600.

This is Las Vegas, New York City, Miami and Chicago.

LOS Angeles needs to be excluded due to the distortion created by Koreatown, although it's numbers aren't that far off.

There are some bells and whistles that have to be excluded just like with cars. BBBJ, spanking and Anal Sex is simply more of an accepted part of all sex in the last decade, particularly after overly-oppressive AIDS sex education was lessened and mainstream internet articles began discussing alternative sexual activities. Sometimes you get more activities in an hour than you used to. And your standard car now has more safety features and cool electronics. This is a good thing and deserves some inflation.

Inflation in the commercial sex industry occurs in sudden shocks.

There was a major shock that occurred a decade ago. The federal government seized the assets of Miami Companions, the predominant multi-state escort agency. All of a sudden many similar agencies including Taylor's and Jillians in NYC disappeared. This was not a major law enforcement event, by the way, for hookers and Johns. The USA Federal government has a very specific policy that it does not pursue hookers and Johns unless a party is under 18 or clear coercion exists. These were financial seizures that wiped out the agencies and unfortunately did subject a lot of agency owners and bookers to criminal sanctions, although most were not that significant.

But independent escorting grew significantly at that time, and the many independent escorts and the agencies that did not cross state lines stopped price matching those huge agencies that had prices of $350 - $400 an hour. We saw prices go up some for independent escorts and small agencies.

A few years ago, there was a massive economic shock. Backpage was seized and Fosta / Sesta was enacted. Now for the many guys who would say that Backpage prices were a fraction of what I just listed, you are correct. But I would never classify the Backpage providers as a premium hour of sex. They were, unfortunately, often just as PallhasMaximus described. Not my scene, and not representative of the higher end of the scene, but they kept prices overall down. The hot, high-performing independent escort was somewhat limited by how much more per hour she could charge in comparison to what was available on Backpage.

Once the USA Government wiped out multi-girl classified advertising, another and more significant price increase occurred. Of course, sex workers argue that their costs increased significantly, too. There are now more independent websites they establish in places like Switzerland, screening is more time consuming and they have to do more of it due to presence of law enforcement, and the rise of Twitter in advertising and marketing requires more constant pictures and videos to keep up with the completion. And incall locations must be smaller, more discrete, and shared by fewer ladies. That is a big cost..

The trouble with using inflation in situations like this is that PCE deflator depends significantly on whether it is adjusted, unadjusted, formulaic, and what are the weights of various baskets. Obviously you know this but applying such a metric to two families one with a university age kid and one w / o will not be the right approach given the serious price increases we have seen in tuition over time and while the deflator does include the educational expense factor, for one family it is a very large amount and for another it is non existent and the CPI measurement includes it say at 6% (education overall, not necessarily university education). And for industries and segments which experience some shock this metric is quite ineffective. You already said there were regulatory actions and FOSTA / SESTA and shutting down of backpage etc. Such actions obviously change the price in ways that can not be explained by applying inflation in a linear fashion.

In my view, the entire pay for play industry is so outside the purview of normal economics that CPI never applies here. To the extent it does, it is a 2nd or 3rd derivative. I. e. Participants (mongers and providers) are still part of the economic system and this demand / supply is still governed by the overall economy. But the shocks have a much bigger impact. The same was seen in German clubs in 2017.

In any case, the US market is indeed moving in the direction of one to one exchanges and that change will only accelerate. What is the number of cab drivers vs ride share providers now?

If you ask a cab driver "what do you do" he might say "drive a taxi". The Uber driver might say "I'm a student, housewife, cashier, teacher, etc etc". Most girls doing sugaring do not think they are prostitutes. The mongers on this site have a massive problem when they hear sugarbabes don't think of themselves as prostitutes (which they ironically don't if a Uber driver tells them "I am not a taxi driver" At least in the case of ride share, the platform sets a price (like FKKs do). In the truly self provider exchange facilitated by SA and others, girls set the terms on everything -- what they will do, what they will NOT do, when they will and how often, what they need and want, and who they will provide the service to. And those prices are not at all correlated to whatever the prevailing market rates for the professionals in the same location. At least Uber may take into consideration the taxi rates in each location in setting their own pricing algorithms (I don't know; I don't work for Uber), but the self provider girls on SA often have no idea how to price their own time and company. Often this leads to massive spread in pricing between various girls even in the same location and of course between cities / countries. It is up to the enterprising gentleman to be patient and find the good girls and deals.

[GuyBrusg1957]

You must have dealt with real swiss swiss people unless you lived in either Lugano, Geneve or Basle, which are only border town with reasonably large size for Switzerland. I always loved Zurich and also Geneve region stretching it out to Lausanne, Vevey, to Montreux and all the small towns in between like Lutry, Pully, Cully etc, I find those places among most beautiful place to live in the world, which is why so many rich people move and live there beside tax break.

For normal girls both Geneve and Zurich are amazing as the city is so international, but for mongering geneve is terrible, Lausanne is ok level terrible and Zurich as some of you know is amazing! Just expensive over all!

What's wrong with Geneva? Looking at a site like geneva. Girls ch looks promising.

[Mongerer88]

We are seeing a variation of your hypothetical situation play out due to CV19 (minus the packing bags to NYC part). Frankfurt clubs have been closed since early March, so many erstwhile FKK girls have been plying their trade as "independent escorts" and scheduling based on email and cell phone messages. Theses ex-FKK WGs are charging 150 EUR to meet mongers in Darmstadt or Frankfurt hotels. The question is are they getting enough volume to match their pre-CV19 incomes in the FKK club? I suspect some are, some aren't. Some will find that their new economic and work schedule suits them better, some will run to the FKKs as soon as they re-open.

For various reasons, I think the WGs are not getting a realistic sense of their true market value as independent escorts. They may find that customer demand evaporates as soon as FKK clubs reopen (or not). Or they may see that customer demand increases if / when a vaccine becomes available.

I just spent some time thinking about the past ten years in the USA.

For a relatively long time preceding the last 10 years, the cost of a premium hour of sex in the USA in the escort world was $350-$400 an hour in most large metropolitan areas.

I believe it to now be $550-$600.

This is Las Vegas, New York City, Miami and Chicago.

LOS Angeles needs to be excluded due to the distortion created by Koreatown, although it's numbers aren't that far off.

There are some bells and whistles that have to be excluded just like with cars. BBBJ, spanking and Anal Sex is simply more of an accepted part of all sex in the last decade, particularly after overly-oppressive AIDS sex education was lessened and mainstream internet articles began discussing alternative sexual activities. Sometimes you get more activities in an hour than you used to. And your standard car now has more safety features and cool electronics. This is a good thing and deserves some inflation.

Inflation in the commercial sex industry occurs in sudden shocks.

There was a major shock that occurred a decade ago. The federal government seized the assets of Miami Companions, the predominant multi-state escort agency. All of a sudden many similar agencies including Taylor's and Jillians in NYC disappeared. This was not a major law enforcement event, by the way, for hookers and Johns. The USA Federal government has a very specific policy that it does not pursue hookers and Johns unless a party is under 18 or clear coercion exists. These were financial seizures that wiped out the agencies and unfortunately did subject a lot of agency owners and bookers to criminal sanctions, although most were not that significant.

But independent escorting grew significantly at that time, and the many independent escorts and the agencies that did not cross state lines stopped price matching those huge agencies that had prices of $350 - $400 an hour. We saw prices go up some for independent escorts and small agencies.

A few years ago, there was a massive economic shock. Backpage was seized and Fosta / Sesta was enacted. Now for the many guys who would say that Backpage prices were a fraction of what I just listed, you are correct. But I would never classify the Backpage providers as a premium hour of sex. They were, unfortunately, often just as PallhasMaximus described. Not my scene, and not representative of the higher end of the scene, but they kept prices overall down. The hot, high-performing independent escort was somewhat limited by how much more per hour she could charge in comparison to what was available on Backpage.

Once the USA Government wiped out multi-girl classified advertising, another and more significant price increase occurred. Of course, sex workers argue that their costs increased significantly, too. There are now more independent websites they establish in places like Switzerland, screening is more time consuming and they have to do more of it due to presence of law enforcement, and the rise of Twitter in advertising and marketing requires more constant pictures and videos to keep up with the completion. And incall locations must be smaller, more discrete, and shared by fewer ladies. That is a big cost.

Those are just a few examples of the changes in the past decade, but I did some inflation calculations. Based on typical USA Inflation, a purchase made for $375 in 2010 would cost $450 in 2020, which is a 1. 9% inflation rate. I think this cost is now $575 based on the averages I have seen and experienced. That is a 4 percent inflation rate. I am not sure how much of that is taken away by the increased costs that the sex workers incur. There have been a few industries where the wage inflation has exceeded 4 percent a year, including the financial sector in New York City, which can explain the significant inflation to obtain an hour of quality sex that has occurred in NYC. The same is true in the San Francisco / Silicon Valley technology industry where I think the average hourly cost now exceeds $550-$600, but was once relatively low. The closure of the ubiquitous Asian Massage Parlors in this area, primarily due to pressure by the federal government, was a shock unique to this area of the country.

Every market is different, although surprisingly Canada, which did not have these same economic shocks, has seen similar inflation (I didn't run the precise numbers, but the major Montreal agencies have gone from $160-$200 an hour to $220-$260 an hour, and a lot of Montreal independents are $300-$400 an hour, especially when you factor in their upcharges for anal and fetish. Americans haven't noticed as much since the currency exchange has gone from par to 75 cents on the dollar during most of this price increase. The numbers I just did are in Canadian currency.

Europe doesn't seem to have experienced as much price inflation during this decade, although the greater availability of half-hour sessions, and the lower starting price in general, can disguise the inflation in terms of total spending.

This isn't a real economic or scientific study. Just my personal observations and thoughts.

[Pessimist]

We are seeing a variation of your hypothetical situation play out due to CV19 (minus the packing bags to NYC part). Frankfurt clubs have been closed since early March, so many erstwhile FKK girls have been plying their trade as "independent escorts" and scheduling based on email and cell phone messages. Theses ex-FKK WGs are charging 150 EUR to meet mongers in Darmstadt or Frankfurt hotels. The question is are they getting enough volume to match their pre-CV19 incomes in the FKK club? I suspect some are, some aren't. Some will find that their new economic and work schedule suits them better, some will run to the FKKs as soon as they re-open.

For various reasons, I think the WGs are not getting a realistic sense of their true market value as independent escorts. They may find that customer demand evaporates as soon as FKK clubs reopen (or not). Or they may see that customer demand increases if / when a vaccine becomes available.

If they meet clients at 150 an hour, they will not make the same amount they do in the clubs. They will have too much time that is not billable. In the club the turnaround time between sessions can be a few minutes.

And do they ask for taxi reimbursement + 150? Otherwise, cab fare will eat even more into their billings.

For incall 150 may be OK if they have the ability to host.

In the club they are paying 100 or more for daily entry fee. Some of that goes to their food but a lot of that can be allocated to the room rental. Say, 75 goes to room rent and they have 5 sessions on average. I know the popular ones have more sessions especially on the weekends but if you average over all the girls across all days of the year, 5 may not be a terrible assumption. So, roughly 15 bucks can be attributed to the room rent per session.

If they are doing an incall, at a minimum they should be passing that much amount on to the client if not more (probably more because they may have more downtime between sessions during incall as escorts).

And anyway, most girls were already charging 150 an hour just for BBBJ + DFK, sometimes 150/ HR with just BBBJ thrown in (and obviously a lot higher for Asian clients). So, strictly on a breakeven basis they can charge more as escorts. And the guys are saving the 65 entry fee. And I think girls should be adding more if this is outcall. Yes, they save room rent if they are doing only outcalls but the cab fare and downtime add a lot more to the expense (unless they are doing guys in adjacent rooms the whole day).

So, all in all, I agree with you that girls are undercharging as escorts relative to their FKK time. My guess (assuming your numbers are accurate) is that (a) they are afraid to push the rate up too much because they are desperate and don't have much confidence in their bargaining power (b) in the absence of international and even domestic tourists, the demand may be anemic (even more so if the local guys are staying put due to fears about Covid). So, these girls are accepting scraps and hoping to just survive till the clubs open.

[Mr Ho]

This is also so true in the FKK now, you can t imagine how many times I told the girl to stop doing this crazy speaking, they believe it will make the monger come faster which is their main target. In each country you have good food, I don t like Switzerland at all, I worked there for several years, the mentality is terrible, and I was surprised how mass alcoholism is present there despite it is a very rich country. I spent 15 YO near the Switzerland boarder may that is the reason I have a deeper understanding about what they really are.

You must have dealt with real swiss swiss people unless you lived in either Lugano, Geneve or Basle, which are only border town with reasonably large size for Switzerland. I always loved Zurich and also Geneve region stretching it out to Lausanne, Vevey, to Montreux and all the small towns in between like Lutry, Pully, Cully etc, I find those places among most beautiful place to live in the world, which is why so many rich people move and live there beside tax break.

For normal girls both Geneve and Zurich are amazing as the city is so international, but for mongering geneve is terrible, Lausanne is ok level terrible and Zurich as some of you know is amazing! Just expensive over all!

Alcoholism is present there because every time I drove or took train in Switzerland I always looked at those small beautiful town in distance on mountain and thought, what if I born there! It is nice and beautiful, but it must be so boring and also city like zurich and Genève has big going out culture and people have money, so alcohol and by the way big time drug culture too goes hand on hand! But it is very safe nation! And I find Switzerland to be so liberal in many areas like drug, alcohol, sex, prostitution etc, I mean they once lowered legal age to prostitute to 16 years old! Which was happy time for some mongers, but that they now raised back to 18 years old! It is very liberal nation beside their hardheadedness and federal tendency to block out foreigners in recent years, but public are still open to foreigners I mean they live off foreigners and wealth of foreigners, chocolate and watches are nice, but they do not make enough cash, it is banking they are good at with their bank secrecy law that no longer functioning, so it could be melting pot nation! But hey it is good, they maybe even open to prostitution than even they already are now! Their bank has less competency compared to before doing whatever they wanted with their secrecy law, now they have to obey OECD LOL!

[The Cane]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4h6UspyAlU

I like listening to my Osho better than to your Osho LOL!

[Mursenary]

Neither of the two ladies I see in NYC, who are $600 an hour, not $1,000 an hour, are anything like PahllusMaximum describes, especially with respect to the act and mannerisms he describes. NYC has thousands of sex workers, and guess what, they are all different. That is one of the reasons they have all selected unique names as a way of distinguishing themselves from other sex workers in the same country. Ironically, I have encountered a couple of ladies in Barcelona who were a

As always, good insight. Sometimes I am also guilty of romanticizing Europe versus America. We have our issues but also so much more to offer in other ways. Europe has the benefit of having so many nations crammed into a small space, which makes things interesting when it comes to food, culture, and history. Here in the US, I feel that there is less judgement (marginally) and more mixing of social classes (maybe also only marginally) perhaps because we are generally more laid back with public behavior. That leads to a pretty interesting dynamic at common social venues.

Our natural outdoors, I believe is superior by far. The Rocky Mountains over the Alps. The Gulf, west coast, and Hawaiian beaches over the Mediterranean. The plethora of national parks and preservations are quite the sights of natural wonders. Are there even plateaus and desserts in Europe? Perhaps a small one in Spain? Alaskan glaciers are one of the most awesome sights I've ever seen. Grand Canyons, Smokey Mountains, the entire countryside is damn gorgeous. Architecture's not so bad either. American southern cities have beautiful giant homes and quaint downtowns. Cities such as New Orleans and Savannah have a combination of French and Victorian buildings nested in unique foliage and climate you can't find anywhere else in the world. Spanish influence in west coast cities is neat, especially when right next door to a modern art deco home. American skyscrapers and their skylines blow any European city out of the water. Perhaps only the East Asian and UAE cities can compete.

As for women, I think we get a bad rap for civilian women. Regarding young women, they are just as pretty as the European counterparts, especially in the American South (People think Californian girls are hot but let me tell you, the perceived hotness of girls in that state is a sham.) I would take the sorority girls I knew in college over most FKK girls. It's just unfortunate that lifestyle and diet means they end up obese by the time they are 30. But let's be honest, don't the over-30 ladies in Europe tend to be a bit heavy also? We do have a bit of diversity too, but you would have to be into Black and Hispanic women to fully appreciate that aspect. I will say that I notice that in Europe, there are so many more beautiful girls working normal jobs so you see them in everyday places. Female cops, female baggage handlers at the airports, or just the cute retail worker. For some reason, in the US outside of the food and beverage service industry, you hardly see beautiful women working these blue collar jobs. Add to it, the fact that American girls, at least the European-origin ones, tend to be more lax in their public presentation, often just choosing a sweatshirt and a pony tail when going out in public. But visit a popular bar at night when they dress up and I can't recall any European spot that has a better views than my local lounge.

Traditional mongering scenes such as massage parlors and internet listings are generally terrible and full of scams. Haven't messed with the sugar babes scene so I don't have much input on that.

[McAdonis]

And I am still pretty sure if you asked a Romanian sex worker in an FKK if she would like to work as an independent escort in NYC with the ability to live where she wants in the city (rather than living in her workplace) and set her own schedule based on email and cell phone messages (after screening her clients), her bags would be packed in five minutes.

We are seeing a variation of your hypothetical situation play out due to CV19 (minus the packing bags to NYC part). Frankfurt clubs have been closed since early March, so many erstwhile FKK girls have been plying their trade as "independent escorts" and scheduling based on email and cell phone messages. Theses ex-FKK WGs are charging 150 EUR to meet mongers in Darmstadt or Frankfurt hotels. The question is are they getting enough volume to match their pre-CV19 incomes in the FKK club? I suspect some are, some aren't. Some will find that their new economic and work schedule suits them better, some will run to the FKKs as soon as they re-open.

For various reasons, I think the WGs are not getting a realistic sense of their true market value as independent escorts. They may find that customer demand evaporates as soon as FKK clubs reopen (or not). Or they may see that customer demand increases if / when a vaccine becomes available.