German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[Rogue Nation]

That's nonsense though. Our hobby is peanuts to the German economy. We carry about as much weight as maybe the toothpick industry.

Exactly. As much nonsense as the rest on the analysis on the German P6 industry.

So if sex workers were illegal immigrants plus prostitution being illegal in the US, that would not be ignored by authorities.

[Mongerer88]

All very clean, orderly, no shame, no LE, no sleaze, and excellent health care and tests. It is essentially a resort. My only gripe with FKK's is the smoking. If that could be removed save for carefully isolated areas it would be nirvana. This could be so easily replicated in the USA but for silly laws, and it would bring investors or retirees buying houses nearby to engage in such facilities..

I still have a lot of questions regarding your posts which are always at 50,000 feet looking down.

Which laws are silly, the laws against prostitution or the laws limiting immigration.

Because in the USA, contrary to what is said on this board, the laws against foreigners coming to work in the USA Are enforced a lot more heavily than the laws against prostitution itself. Almost all sting operations involving customers involved fake ads on low end advertising sites like Backpage. Sure there have been plenty of federal-level enforcement actions against agencies, but those are about money and publicity, not about prosecuting ordinary customers or sex workers. The tried and true method of a guy contacting a reviewed independent, cooperating with reasonable screening, and doing the deed, usually repeatedly if he becomes a regular, is basically the USA Scene. It is a big market with big supply and big demand. Prices are high, but if a guy pays enough services are excellent, including BBBJ, CIM, anal, fetishes, etc. Granted we are talking very high prices, but most USA Johns spend a lifetime with this system with no realistic fear of law enforcement activity. There are a lot of USA Message and review boards that confirm this.

I realize this independent escort system does not appeal to guys who like FKKs, but my detailed questions are how the entry of a German-style FKK system would really change things the way you suggest.

I presume you want low prices like those at the FKKs. The secret to success at the FKKs is the availability of low-cost labor from Eastern Europe. What changes would you propose to the immigration and temporary visa system to allow Venezuelans, Cubans and ladies from some parts of Mexico and Colombia work at the FKKs? That is a bigger change than legalizing prostitution. And that is the only way you are going to get low prices. $50 to $100 is a fortune when taken back to those countries. It ain't jack shit to American sex workers currently getting $200 to $600 an hour as independents. You seem swayed by the reported wages of American ladies, or what they say after leaving a Bernie Sanders rally, but if you look at their lifestyles, including what they drive, wear and eat, they have some damn good money coming from somewhere, even the ones in North Dakota.

So what would your target session price be at your hypothetical American FKK? How would you find workers at low prices?

Do you really think American escorts want to register and receive tax reporting documents that would forever indicate she worked in the sex industry. Do you really think she wants to give up the freedom that working for herself gives her?

And you never discuss detailed services in your posts, even with respect to your sessions. The only American legal system now is in rural Nevada, and not only does that have the highest prices in the country, but it also has the most clinical services. Independents in Vegas are less expensive than the brothels and it is much easier to find BBBJ, CIM and anal (all of which are forbidden in the Nevada legal brothels and the rules are adhered to).

You think retirees would flock to the American FKKs, but I have always been told that BBBJ is even more important to older guys, as getting an election from a CBJ becomes more difficult as they age.

Do you really think if the USA Legalized and regulated prostitution, that BBBJ and CIM would be permitted in the FKKs? The places would be new, with no history of BBBJ and CIM from ladies working there who would be comfortable ignoring the rules, like at German FKKs. The services at any legal American FKKs would be so clinical that guys would seek out the independent escorts.

It just won't work in the USA, and the USA Doesn't lack a commercial sex industry. Enjoy the FKKs in Germany, and enjoy the American independent escorts. We don't have to make every market the same.

[XXL]

....Germany makes a lot of money from inbound tourism of horny Italians, Brits, Americans, French, Scandinavians and so on. Hotels, airports, restaurants and so on, and the girls also spend much of what they earn ...

That's nonsense though. Our hobby is peanuts to the German economy. We carry about as much weight as maybe the toothpick industry.

[Pahllus Maximus]

The attraction of the FKKs is the other trimmings: beautiful cities (maybe not Frankfurt though), clean, efficient transport, spotless hotels, the straight forward manner of Germans, and also skiing and and in Berlin, excellent choice of top notch food. The Wellcum Club in Villach, Austria is delightful, pine trees, fresh air, scenic mountains, a pool, gym a serious kitchen with real chefs and good quality food and ton of hot women parading around. Day trips include idyllic hiking in summer and skiing in winter. You meet like minded men, some from this board, and interesting chats and friendships are formed over a beer or nice wine served in proper glasses, and beautiful women begging you to pick them and bonk them.

The eye candy alone is staggering. If I was a teenager again my head would have exploded !

All very clean, orderly, no shame, no LE, no sleaze, and excellent health care and tests. It is essentially a resort. My only gripe with FKK's is the smoking. If that could be removed save for carefully isolated areas it would be nirvana. This could be so easily replicated in the USA but for silly laws, and it would bring investors or retirees buying houses nearby to engage in such facilities.

Germany makes a lot of money from inbound tourism of horny Italians, Brits, Americans, French, Scandinavians and so on. Hotels, airports, restaurants and so on, and the girls also spend much of what they earn locally. The clubs pay tax. It is amazing you can have hundreds of men at Oase and not a single cop to be seen. Germany can also add medical tourism to the package. This whole package is indeed worth the 10 hours from the west coast or central.

[Pistons]

Pistons. It is interesting what you say about non homogenous market, and your impression of numbers going up.

I read that study you linked, and can add a few things.

- the non homogenous market was mainly on the background of the girls. A bit counter to the main romanian / bulgarian FKK market. Although there are plenty from those two countries (and moldova) all over too.

- the 10 fold increase in internet ads as pointed out in the study is really just a 2 or a 3 fold increase as most girls run 2-5 adds each.

- many former streetwalkers before the new laws now mainly also run internet ads.

- a good reason for the increase is the expansion of low cost air travel and airbnb as opposed to high cost air travel and expensive hotels not allowing prostitution.

-Networking among prostitutes has increased, so the prostitutes know the real numbers. Talking to them are the key. Not some 'I know it all' professor making educated guesses and assumptions.

- before the nordic model law, sex was also illegal to sell. That held many escorts away. Now it is legal for them to sell, basically inviting them to come.

- mongers all over the world don't care about legal / illegal, as these laws are just made up by random people (politicians) like you and me with own agendas, and like the study says, people don't considers the escorts as victims (even if a percentage of them are). So it falls flat against free thinking mongers, and like some have mentioned here already, you can never stop the exchange of sex for money. Like I have pointed out before, it is what created money in the first place. Without sex, there would be no money.

- If the law was intended to stop trafficking, the police work gets a dice roll of 0 from me. Basically making me unsure weather or not trafficking as an excuse for the law was just a cover up, even if it still happens to a few. Then again, police work against drug imports also gets a dice roll of 0. Cops are more interested in standing around looking silly, or stopping is in traffic these days. To hand you fines so that they get an income. If I could buy shares in police work, I would.

[Optimist]

Jnpr30. I found your impressionistic post incredibly evocative and helpful in understanding places like the US.

Interestingly what you say is in line with the only thing the source I referred to about the Nordic model was sure about. Criminalisation reduces, (in nordic countries where use of prostitutes is criminalised,) prostitute use by married men: as you say, men with jobs and a settled life are going to fly to countries where they will not get a criminal record and be barred from work due to being a sex offender.

Pistons. It is interesting what you say about non homogenous market, and your impression of numbers going up.

[Pistons]

Any suggestions on where to look here in Reykjavik or are you saying it is a ghost town for tutes? I have 2-3 trips planned to see my family in the DC / BALT area and there are a few airlines that fly to Europe for the price of a can of coke and a snickers bar and the flights are short. They allow you free layover up to 7 days and I would be interested in staying a night on the inbound or the return if any action even for hotel outcall is there. Layovers can be 2-4 hours same day so I might choose to just stay the night than on to wherever. I always thought Iceland was a hooker graveyard but maybe I am incorrect.

From what I know from the rest of the Nordics, most escorts only goes with locals. Not sure if that applies to Iceland, but given the size of Reykjavik, I wouldn't chance on it.

[Member #4581]

Yes, there is obviously plenty of underground prostitution in the US (ex NV). This is the oldest profession in the world, it exists in every country and society -- I bet even in those harsh Islamic ones where they chop off hands and stone to death if caught (and the ones usually caught are the ones with no political protection). But the American guys posting here do know that prostitution is all around us -- backpage, craiglist, sugar daddy sites, escort section in yellow pages and other cheap mags, seedy part of the town where you see drugged out girls seeking drivers at stop lights, strip clubs, high end escort and porn star webpages, and the clubs where Elliott Spitzer and his ilk go, and everything in between. No law can ever kill prostitution -- no more than it can kill human urges. What it does in the US is make discussion difficult, and removes transparency -- girls can't discover guys easily, and vice versa, pricing is opaque, and it is all in shadows. For the most part, the American dudes frequenting FKKs are law abiding citizens -- and McA is right, also likely to be upper middle class. So, rather than get into any trouble w / LE, they fly 9 hrs to a foreign land at great expense and indulge in this hobby in a legal fashion. That said, FKK clubs are such an ingenious system; their attraction is not just the legality, and they keep drawing guys in -- once smitten twice addicted.

[Pistons]

Is there any serious source for this claim? Or is it just the world as seen by Pistons?

I see no conflict between your two sentences. LOL.

I know far more than what you can find in studies or on the internet. But I don't feel like writing about it here. The market is not very homogeneous, and is quite diverse. But overall given equal spending power, the amount of girls went up after the Nordic model arrived, and their age went down.

I suppose the Nordic market is also quite affected by pan-European prostitution anyway, so the boundaries are much weaker between the Nordics and Germany, UK or even Spain than you'd think.

But still, not many locals who are not drug addicts does it openly through ads. Or the ones that does, do it through sugar daddy sites due to cultural / political stigma. However, if society had deemed it fine, it would have exploded. The liberal undertones are already in place in some areas, because religion is 90% dead. So even the feminists (late stranglers left after the religious generations) are fighting against the clock. That is my impression at least.

[Mongerer88]

Just a general observation, not intended to be hostile. But one thing I noticed in the discussion of whether there might someday be a US FKK and what it would be like is that guys who go to FKKs on a consistent basis analyze things from a standpoint of large establishments that operate legally. That really makes it difficult for a lot of guys to really appreciate the extent of the "underground sex work market" in many countries. When guys on the FKK Lounge area discuss prostitution in other countries, they focus on strip joints because they have fixed addresses and can be found. But that is a very small part of the overall scene when the larger independent escort world is factored in.

Someone pointed out that the USA Is estimated to have one million prostitutes. I suspect that is a reasonable number, perhaps a bit exaggerated. But one poster suggested that if there was an American FKK, perhaps some Hooters waitresses might work there instead. I kind of think that some Hooters waitresses who are willing to sell some sex on the side have in fact caught on to the idea of exchanging cell phone numbers and email addresses with some favorite select customers and arranging some private transactions. I complimented the poster who shared the Sugar Baby experiences because it illustrated how the market works in many countries. Ads are found, reviews are searched (although both are more difficult now as the industry adapts to the Fosta / Sesta cyclone of shit, but there are still plenty of ad and review boards in existence, even some brand new ones established offshore), some level of screening occurs so that both parties can be sure no cops are involved, and ultimately a transaction takes place in a completely private setting and everyone is happy.

The nature of this "underground" system throughout most of the world makes it very difficult to measure. There are plenty of ads in the Nordic countries, so who knows how many of them are answered and how many transactions take place. We don't know, and neither does the person trying to write this scholarly piece on the effect of the Nordic Model. It just can't be easily quantified like FKK transactions can.

Some would argue that these independent escort models are the best because it eliminates any middleman and lets the ladies better choose their rates, working hours and customers. Others would argue that having everyone do this in a big fixed-place facility increases safety. Both arguments have merits.

But I think it is very difficult for guys who frequent FKKs to really appreciate how the scene works in other countries or really appreciate how prevalent sex work is in other countries with more of an independent escort scene.

[Optimist]

https://www.idunn.no/oslo_law_review..._does_it_stand

Seems like the effects on number of prostitutes is debatable to say the least.

[Uggabugga]

Forget about the payable scene in Iceland. Prostitution (supply side) is heavily fuelled by poverty and with this tiny community (<500 k) relative workable population, and limited immigration theres simply not enough poverty to make this scene on offer.

Imagine Germany on the contrary, with an estimate of 10 kk below powerty line PLuSS «uncontrolled» immigration no wonder a few % feels tempted using this opportunity short or longer for quick bucks.

Just think about all dirt in this scene in certain asian countries, certainly don't happen in the wealthier parts.

These Airlines suck, reports on them are worse than Siri's reports out of Dietzenbach and no M&M's are served either. Siri, if you meet me at Day Care I would be so honored that I will pay your entry and bring a box of Godiva's for you and upgrade your desserts as I know the French are quite proud of their after meal servings. Consider it a free gift from America in exchange for our President being so rude to your leader

Still of interest though, can take a hit for one night.

[Kosher Kowboy]

Evidently prostitution is an issue in Iceland!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland

Not sure if that means they now have one hundred or one thousand hookers!

Given the cost of living in Iceland, I would imagine a very expensive hobby in that part of the world!

These Airlines suck, reports on them are worse than Siri's reports out of Dietzenbach and no M&M's are served either. Siri, if you meet me at Day Care I would be so honored that I will pay your entry and bring a box of Godiva's for you and upgrade your desserts as I know the French are quite proud of their after meal servings. Consider it a free gift from America in exchange for our President being so rude to your leader

Still of interest though, can take a hit for one night.

[Der Auslander]

Evidently prostitution is an issue in Iceland!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland

Not sure if that means they now have one hundred or one thousand hookers!

Given the cost of living in Iceland, I would imagine a very expensive hobby in that part of the world!

[Kosher Kowboy]

Bring a shovel and you can dig her up!

Also bring sandwiches as a burger and fries costs about US $25.

No shovel, I hate work, that is what landscapers are for!

These airlines are dirtballs, charge you for your seats, your bags, no food unless you pay; they probably have one dollar coin slots to feed in order to use the toilets. Guess no Iceland, it's cheaper to Amtrak to NYC and go from there direct and land at a good time.

That was the quickest trip to Iceland ever!!