Good insight.

[Stevie69]

Well, how about "tomorrow we can go shopping for all your food for the month and you can cook me a meal". Or, if she is more superficial, for some nice clothes. Or, if she is really pretentious and you have money to waste, to get you the latest iphone becasue I do nto liek the noe you have.

I am familiar with the culture (I grew up in the USSR). But I don't understand how you guys talk about payment with a regular girl without offending her. I understand that they all need money, but I have no idea how to propose that. I am sure that if the girls knows that besides nice dinner she is surely getting X dollars, she would agree. Next question, how to determine X?!

Thanks!

[Incrociatore]

Success or failure in Ukraine. Let's talk a bit about hidden reasons. Let's start from the beginning. We must understand that reality in Ukraine or Russia is significantly different from Western reality. Rich western countries. And because of this there was feminism. Feminism can arise only where society has accumulated sufficiently large material wealth and a woman can choose. And a very large number of those who can be called the middle class. And well-off men. What does this lead to. What are the consequences? There are a lot of well-fed men with money, there is also a powerful middle class, and the value of a beautiful woman in such a society is increasing. For a beautiful woman there is a tough struggle and competition between men. We see this in the USA and everywhere. A beautiful woman in your bed is an indicator of your success. So you are a successful person. But the value of the family falls. A woman in such countries does not depend on a man as much as a Russian and Ukrainian woman. And the laws in Western countries are anti-male. This is a real marriage robbery. Feminists intimidated Western men and very seriously deformed them consciousness. Besides, feminists forced society to adopt a host of absolutely anti-male laws. For example, this constant idiotic fight against sexual harassment. It came to the point of absurdity. For example, this is the persecution of film producer Harvey Weinstein. And much more. All this in a complex led to the fact that eastern women often do not perceive western men as males. Like men. They perceive them as some kind of weak nerds with glasses and with a credit card in their wallet. Just as a source of money. And this is the drama. I know what I'm writing about. I often saw how these guys communicate with Ukrainian women. They begin to lick their legs. Fit under a woman's heel. They are too soft. Too helpful. Excessively polite..

This is gold. No, it's platinum.

I have seen these Turkish guys. And I have experienced myself every word you say. For example, this Ukrainian girl got pissed off because I wasn't available on a Saturday since I had another date (which I didn't tell, but she is not stupid). We didn't speak for a while, and when I told her I was in Dnipro she agreed immediately to see me (for the first time), even if we didn't text for months. Then, even if she was pissed off, she agreed to see me the same day, just after work. But then she refused when I tried to kiss her, and I cut her off, because in Western countries if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, usually. But then she reached for me again, another time I was there, she asked me to get a drink together, but once again she refused my kiss. And so I told her to fuck off. And after a while she wrote me again, and she still reach for me from time to time. She wants me to chase her, she wants me to pursuit her, because that's the way Russian / Ukrainian women are used to, and she is pissed off because I do not do that. They say no, and they want you to be persistent. It's not really no, it's more like, not now, persist. They test you all the time. One of my Ukrainian colleagues explained me this. They want you to go all in for them, they want full attention. When I read this, I really recognized my mistakes. The culture is so different. I personally don't like it, but I don't like feminism either.

[AttilaTheHun]

Interesting trend. More and more sex wifi porn in Russia where there are hot brutal Caucasian guys. Dagestan. Chechnya. Gruziya. To there are regions where a woman takes a subordinate position. What we see. What is this tendency. What is higher than the position of a woman in society and family. What is higher the level of female independence and contempt for a man. What is more in Ukraine or Russia obedient and subordinate men. Then brighter is this Caucasian inquiry and trend. But why? But because the male dominates in nature and not the female. The woman stands submissively in the pose of the dog and receives her portion of sperm. Because no matter how high a woman in the hierarchy rose. She dreams of finding someone who is stronger than she. She dreams of finding an alpha male. She dreams of such an orgasm. Look carefully at the video where the Turks are brutally fucking feminized Russian women from Moscow and or Kiev. These women scream during sex. They are like crazy. They subjugated their husbands. Like western women. And the nature is dominated by the male and not the female. These are the laws of nature. But the Turks. The Caucasus. Is the world of men. These men. They are others. And these females. They want to return to nature. They want to be brutally fucked by men from less matriarchal cultures. Less than feminized. What we see in these numerous videos. These females become insane. Their screams. Their moans. It's a bit dramatic. But we see the same thing in the USA. Only on the islands of the Caribbean. All these unruly feminized women from the offices. They take off their panties and take on huge brutal penises of mulattoes and blacks. Guys from a society where there is no feminism!.

You are an expert of female nature, This is fine MGTOW stuff. Keep them coming!

[WiseHustler]

Success or failure in Ukraine. Let's talk a bit about hidden reasons. Let's start from the beginning. We must understand that reality in Ukraine or Russia is significantly different from Western reality. Rich western countries. And because of this there was feminism. Feminism can arise only where society has accumulated sufficiently large material wealth and a woman can choose. And a very large number of those who can be called the middle class. And well-off men. What does this lead to. What are the consequences? There are a lot of well-fed men with money, there is also a powerful middle class, and the value of a beautiful woman in such a society is increasing. For a beautiful woman there is a tough struggle and competition between men. We see this in the USA and everywhere. A beautiful woman in your bed is an indicator of your success. So you are a successful person. But the value of the family falls. A woman in such countries does not depend on a man as much as a Russian and Ukrainian woman. And the laws in Western countries are anti-male. This is a real marriage robbery. Feminists intimidated Western men and very seriously deformed them consciousness. Besides, feminists forced society to adopt a host of absolutely anti-male laws. For example, this constant idiotic fight against sexual harassment. It came to the point of absurdity. For example, this is the persecution of film producer Harvey Weinstein. And much more. All this in a complex led to the fact that eastern women often do not perceive western men as males. Like men. They perceive them as some kind of weak nerds with glasses and with a credit card in their wallet. Just as a source of money. And this is the drama. I know what I'm writing about. I often saw how these guys communicate with Ukrainian women. They begin to lick their legs. Fit under a woman's heel. They are too soft. Too helpful. Excessively polite. Because it's hard for them to be different in the west where they run the risk of being charged with sexual harassment from some crazy *****. The behavior patterns of these guys are such that the girls quickly sit on their heads..

This is the most Red pilled post ever on ISG. Almost felt like being on Reddit! The scenario was spot on but would have loved to hear on the Pick-Up game if any in Ukraine (being the forum)!

[PhotoSlider]

No offense, but as you said at the end of your message, it is now more difficult to find a masseuse than ever before in Ukraine. That's why I mentioned the camgirl option. I find that mamba is not reliable at all. Many profiles aren't active. Women are fake or weird.

More difficult doesn't mean impossible. To be fair converting hourly girls into more reliable "rental" girlfriends is substantially easier.

Cam girls are next to impossible to fuck, customer is basically reduced to jerking off. Masseuses are the same, except jerking off is called happy ending, and since I can find in Kiev receptacles of my sperm than naked young ladies hands, I do not let them perform happy ending on me. I was told by ex-masseuse that I know for 5 years now, that experienced girls do not like this sort of customers. She made this characteristic shaking movement at the wrist, and said it is the best to make the customer ejaculate, and relax herself instead of working for the whole duration.

I target younger girls, new in business. For them the fact that I do not need happy ending engages their interest and curiosity. The rest is art. Some shutdown and block, some progress to DATY and DFK on site, some exchange contacts and meet later on off site.

What you say is interesting "theoretically speaking" and I see what you mean. Ukrainian women have a strong ego and don't want to be seen as prostitute. Ukrainian women are psycho rigid compared to Russian and Romanian women when we talk about sex against money. However, compared to the early 2000, nothing changed in Ukraine. Ukrainian women always need money. The legal framework around prostitution in Ukraine remains the same.

Except this "theoretically speaking" works quite well for me in practice)).

I have time, because I stay in Kiev for weeks. I diversify and invest into multiple leads, - potential "rental" girlfriends. Some result in the desired outcome, some don't. I make an initial investment taking care of the girl needs, such as her cell phone payments, healthy food, entertainment, basic shopping. I do it without requesting an immediate fuck.

I value young female company more than fucking hourly girls. At the same time I need sex when I wake up, and when I go to bed. If "rental" GF is evasive, I fire her ass, and employ hourly girls.

I had 2 cases symbolizing that my theory works.

1. Two hours before departure of my date on the train, I asked her:

- Would you like do go to my apartment? It will not change anything if you don't.

The answer was a shy "Yes, I do. I want to"..[/QUOTE]They didn't with me. It was as simple as request for modest money transfer to travel to me, or asking:

- Would you help me with expenses?

And I do, as long as it's reasonable on my scale.

One may call Ukrainian girls snobbish, which is negative thinking. They will respond accordingly rejecting.

Or one may call them having good pride and confidence respecting maybe not all but some of them, which is positive. Some may try taking advantage, some will behave with dignity. I am interested in the latter category.

However, It is a big lie. You can see that they still need money to survive.

I think that with Ukrainian women, it is useless to use detours. I think that only the straightforward way work with women. Today, the massage option, the girlfriend option is a detour.

I am not saying my approach is for everybody. To each his own. IMHO mongering in Kiev is great because there are so many service offerings.

I think the best would be to put everything on the table right upfront saying to a woman: look you don't have money, you are in a poor situation, let's make an arrangement, Let's spend time together and have fun. No one will know and you will get money. I am sure there is a way to transmit this idea to the woman and make her feel comfortable about it.

That is precisely what I do with hourly girls. Negotiation is done with dispatcher via Viber / WhatsApp, girl arrives for sex, and I either extend, or am happy with just 1 hour, or kick her out and complain to delivery entity, or get her number and meet with her cutting out the middleman, paying her directly, resulting either in a better service or less money out of my pocket.

I mentioned this masseuse as an unique example of what happened to me. Kiev doesn't have drive through sex services with guaranteed quality. That's why I keep grooming.

We obviously have different view on the subject, and my intention is far from changing yours.

[Tomek123]

Success or failure in Ukraine. Let's talk a bit about hidden reasons. Let's start from the beginning. We must understand that reality in Ukraine or Russia is significantly different from Western reality. Rich western countries. And because of this there was feminism. Feminism can arise only where society has accumulated sufficiently large material wealth and a woman can choose. And a very large number of those who can be called the middle class. And well-off men. What does this lead to. What are the consequences? There are a lot of well-fed men with money, there is also a powerful middle class, and the value of a beautiful woman in such a society is increasing. For a beautiful woman there is a tough struggle and competition between men. We see this in the USA and everywhere. A beautiful woman in your bed is an indicator of your success. So you are a successful person. But the value of the family falls. A woman in such countries does not depend on a man as much as a Russian and Ukrainian woman. And the laws in Western countries are anti-male. This is a real marriage robbery. Feminists intimidated Western men and very seriously deformed them consciousness. Besides, feminists forced society to adopt a host of absolutely anti-male laws. For example, this constant idiotic fight against sexual harassment. It came to the point of absurdity. For example, this is the persecution of film producer Harvey Weinstein. And much more. All this in a complex led to the fact that eastern women often do not perceive western men as males. Like men. They perceive them as some kind of weak nerds with glasses and with a credit card in their wallet. Just as a source of money. And this is the drama. I know what I'm writing about. I often saw how these guys communicate with Ukrainian women. They begin to lick their legs. Fit under a woman's heel. They are too soft. Too helpful. Excessively polite. Because it's hard for them to be different in the west where they run the risk of being charged with sexual harassment from some crazy *****. The behavior patterns of these guys are such that the girls quickly sit on their heads.

These guys do not understand that they came to another country where a slightly different reality. And a different culture. In this culture there is no equality of women and men in the West. It cannot be because the Ukrainian economy does not allow a woman to make good money. Without a man, she is often helpless. Her salvation is a man. And a Western woman can live well without a man at all. Therefore, the behavior of a Western woman will be different from the behavior of a Ukrainian woman. An American woman herself can offer to pay half the bill to a restaurant. Ewen in Poland is often. No this does not mean that it will necessarily suck your dick. Ukraine and Russia is the world of men. Men rule there. This is an absolutely sexist society. Slavic women are often disappointed with the insecurity and shyness of Western men. It's incomprehensible. In their understanding, a man should be persistent in achieving the goal and not be afraid. He should be confident and courageous. Their Slavic female subconscious mind perceives just such a man like a male. These women do not understand that Western men have the same rights and incomes as women in their country and that it is difficult for them psychologically to be the same as Ukrainian women are used to. These Western men grew up surrounded by arrogant Western women with very high self-esteem. Besides many artificial absurd barriers and fears and prohibitions. And this constant fear of being accused of sexual harassment. This is the influence of liberals and leftists who, under the pressure of feminists, restrict the freedom and sexual initiative of a Western man. What this leads to. Many western men are becoming like distilled water. Lately it has been happening even in Poland which in 1989 became part of the western world. But there is another extreme. A western man, having fallen into Ukraine or Russia, becomes like a mad dog during the mating season. Something similar also happens with many Turkish guys who came to Ukraine from a conservative Muslim society with its conventions and prohibitions. These western guys start behaving like sexy maniacs. They start rushing at all the girls. Running after each short skirt. They seem to wake up some kind of demon of lust and madness. They become simply uncontrollable. They are like guys who escaped from prison. Some girls admitted to me in this. That is, often we see two types of behavior — insecurity. Fear. Excessive politeness and gentleness. Or vice versa. Unbridled sexual aggression and even sometimes rudeness. You should not humiliate yourself before a Ukrainian or Russian woman. If you begin to humiliate yourself, then she does not perceive you as a male. In that case, for her you are just a Western credit card and she despises you. This culture is different.

[Henri Dufresne]

I am no expert on cam girls, never tried them, but had good degree of success with masseuses. They also do not think of themselves as prostitutes, and few things help them to get out of the boring daily routine:

No offense, but as you said at the end of your message, it is now more difficult to find a masseuse than ever before in Ukraine. That's why I mentioned the camgirl option. I find that mamba is not reliable at all. Many profiles aren't active. Women are fake or weird.

What you say is interesting "theoretically speaking" and I see what you mean. Ukrainian women have a strong ego and don't want to be seen as prostitute. Ukrainian women are psycho rigid compared to Russian and Romanian women when we talk about sex against money. However, compared to the early 2000, nothing changed in Ukraine. Ukrainian women always need money. The legal framework around prostitution in Ukraine remains the same.

Being called a masseuse for a woman is better than being called a prostitute, even is she does exactly the same work than a prostitute. It would be a good trick to tell an Ukrainian woman that you have back problems and want a massage to progressively bring her to sex. However, this may be a big waste of time because at the end she may strongly refuse to have sex even if you paid her for a massage.

I have the feeling that the new generation of Ukrainian women are often very snobbish. They make you believe they don't need money. However, It is a big lie. You can see that they still need money to survive.

I think that with Ukrainian women, it is useless to use detours. I think that only the straightforward way work with women. Today, the massage option, the girlfriend option is a detour.

I think the best would be to put everything on the table right upfront saying to a woman: look you don't have money, you are in a poor situation, let's make an arrangement, Let's spend time together and have fun. No one will know and you will get money. I am sure there is a way to transmit this idea to the woman and make her feel comfortable about it.

[PhotoSlider]

...In summary I'm sure you can get lucky but it seems like a huge waste of time and money!

I am no expert on cam girls, never tried them, but had good degree of success with masseuses. They also do not think of themselves as prostitutes, and few things help them to get out of the boring daily routine:

1. Outcall. Trip to customer's apartment.

2. Pocketing 100% of the fee.

3. Real action.

Not all girls want the above, especially the last one, but some do for sure. And after maybe 10-15 visits to Kiev massage places over 10 years, 2 massage girls have been converted to my long-term GFs. As opposed to strippers where I managed to get only one, and eventually gave up altogether.

As of lately I am not a standard happy ending customer. I surely enjoy a massage delivered by a naked lovely young lady. Seducing her up to DATY and then DFK is a good challenge. At the same time there's a controversy, as a good massage where I can kiss and touch the body is about 1500-2000. FS can be easily arranged for that much money. But sometimes all I need is just a massage, and menu may even have such an item for 700 UAH. Except girls look at me surprised, not knowing what to expect. Am I cheap, or don't have money, or what's the problem? Brave one said about a month ago: "Come on! Pay 1500 and you'll leave happy". So I do, but 9 out of 10 do not let them to jerk me off anyway, because I expect to fuck someone later on for real, and I am not that young anymore to recover quickly.

The result is interesting. Most of the girls are surprised, some refuse to let go without completion, some think I can't get it up anymore, or am some sort of pervert. The best ones give me their phone number and want to meet in private. The good ones I usually extend for another hour, and that gives more than enough time to learn their personality, and establish a good rapport.

Again, I never had cam girls, but seems massage is more efficient. The only restriction is the duration of stay in Kiev. The longer you stay, the higher the chances. And even that can be lifted. One of the above 2 massage girls I met 4 years ago on my last day before departure. I then made the official outcall reservation for her to come out to my apartment and all of a sudden, without any expectation on my part, she went all the way through for a full service, without even discussing the payment. I tipped her well, and we ordered two taxis, she went home, and I left for the airport. We still are close friends, after more than 4 years. She is an exceptional lady.

All the good massage places I knew in Kiev are either closed or went down in quality. I had 3 girls all good from the most recent one, and as of 3 weeks ago the place got shut down. Probably not profitable enough.

[Henri Dufresne]

I have posted about this before as well. I have tried, but not too hard, to meet cam girls in Ukraine hoping it might turn into a real meet up. Actually went backwards on my last trip to Kiev met a girl on Mamba that does cam work on Chaturbate. There are some problems with this strategy:

The super hot models who have popular cams are making enough money where they don't need to escort. I normally look way down in the rankings page 6-7 to find some hot girls and they are cute enough but don't know how to excel at cam work. I have made friendships with a few girls like this but nothing ever came from it.

Every cam girl has douchebags in their room every day offering to fly them out to fuck with a first class ticket. These guys are always "greys" who have no tokens and don't tip. You pretty much have to spend some money on them to establish yourself as a generous guy and to build trust. Cam sites take about 60% and the girls make 40% so you are probably going to have to spend a couple hundred to get in good with these girls. Nothing beyond that is likely but I'm sure it's possible. For the money you will spend trying this you can probably walk up to 10 hot girls in Kiev and offer 4-500 for a date and probably one will accept.

I have more practice of Romanian camgirls. And to my surprise many camgirls in Romania also work as an escort. Sometimes they wold vanish during several months from the cam site because they were in Dubai or Barcelona working as a pro. You can find evidence of it, when you browse the pics of a girl and when you see she was in Dubai on her own. Dubaï on her own = pro.

[Member #4722]

I wonder if it is possible to find Ukrainian women and use them as escort thanks to camgirl websites. I have found this article on a website https://xchatz.com/video-dating-site...rainian-women/ mentioning that it was possible to give your email address to an Ukrainian woman during a private webcam chat session.

I think it can be interesting because what you can see on webcam is what you can get in the real world. There aren't any problems with fake pictures or scams on profile just like on mamba. When you chat with a cam model what you see is what you get on the screen. Also, by chatting with the girl upfront, you know if she is positive about sex and if she would be willing to do anything. I think this pre-screening is interesting because from what I saw in Ukraine, there are huge gaps between behaviour of Ukrainian women. Some are psycho-rigid and cold..

I have posted about this before as well. I have tried, but not too hard, to meet cam girls in Ukraine hoping it might turn into a real meet up. Actually went backwards on my last trip to Kiev met a girl on Mamba that does cam work on Chaturbate. There are some problems with this strategy:

The super hot models who have popular cams are making enough money where they don't need to escort. I normally look way down in the rankings page 6-7 to find some hot girls and they are cute enough but don't know how to excel at cam work. I have made friendships with a few girls like this but nothing ever came from it.

Every cam girl has douchebags in their room every day offering to fly them out to fuck with a first class ticket. These guys are always "greys" who have no tokens and don't tip. You pretty much have to spend some money on them to establish yourself as a generous guy and to build trust. Cam sites take about 60% and the girls make 40% so you are probably going to have to spend a couple hundred to get in good with these girls. Nothing beyond that is likely but I'm sure it's possible. For the money you will spend trying this you can probably walk up to 10 hot girls in Kiev and offer 4-500 for a date and probably one will accept.

I was trying to work the cam girl angle with this young mother who lives in a small village. Spent a couple hundred in her room over a few weeks and we started talking on WhatsApp. But she started to become too demanding for $ so I blocked her. This girl is cute but horrible at cam. I think she is happy to make $15 in a day. I actually popped into her room yesterday and she was on for 5 hours and made less than 20 tokens she just stands still and stares at computer when no one is tipping. Had another girl from Estonia who I hit it off with but I told her I would be in EE and she never pushed the issue to meet. Was generous with this girl also.

In summary I'm sure you can get lucky but it seems like a huge waste of time and money!

[Riina]

What is your opinion about using camgirl sites to find escort girls? Maybe you have ideas.

Sounds like a great idea, but there's a difference between cam and hooking. Most girls don't want to out themselves as prostitutes. If you find one, I recommend travel directly to their village. The local guys are always eager to help a sex tourist.

[Henri Dufresne]

I wonder if it is possible to find Ukrainian women and use them as escort thanks to camgirl websites. I have found this article on a website https://xchatz.com/video-dating-site...rainian-women/ mentioning that it was possible to give your email address to an Ukrainian woman during a private webcam chat session.

I think it can be interesting because what you can see on webcam is what you can get in the real world. There aren't any problems with fake pictures or scams on profile just like on mamba. When you chat with a cam model what you see is what you get on the screen. Also, by chatting with the girl upfront, you know if she is positive about sex and if she would be willing to do anything. I think this pre-screening is interesting because from what I saw in Ukraine, there are huge gaps between behaviour of Ukrainian women. Some are psycho-rigid and cold. They don't want to hear anything when you talk about sex. Other women are really open minded and they are willing to please you. Those ones are ready to go on their knees, suck you because you have been nice to them.

This would give the opportunity to find amateur girls and girls next door as well.

You can access to many beautiful Ukrainian women instantly from the comfort of your living room.

Now let's talk about the possible issues related to this technique:

First of all, money. Even if the Ukrainian camgirls are cheapest online. All those websites don't do it for free and you must pay for a webcam chat session. If the chat is $2/ minutes it is $60 for a 30-minute conversation.

From what I have read, Ukrainian webcam models come from all over Ukraine from the west (Lviv) to east (donetsk). So it is the first problem with this technique. If you look for women online you may find yourself with contacts coming from different locations in Ukraine. You would be forced to travel a lot in the country. For example, if you meet a woman from Odessa and another one from Lviv good luck to you. Those two cities are far away from each other.

Also, there is the language barrier that is quite high. Apart from Kiev, many women don't speak English. But I guess that with the translation devices and applications, it is not a problem anymore.

What is your opinion about using camgirl sites to find escort girls? Maybe you have ideas.

[Junior11]

Then you should know that by offering her everything you've got won't offend her.

LOL. Fair point.

[Questner]

I am familiar with the culture (I grew up in the USSR). But I don't understand how you guys talk about payment with a regular girl without offending her. I understand that they all need money, but I have no idea how to propose that. I am sure that if the girls knows that besides nice dinner she is surely getting X dollars, she would agree. Next question, how to determine X?!

Thanks!

Then you should know that by offering her everything you've got won't offend her.

[Riina]

I am familiar with the culture (I grew up in the USSR). But I don't understand how you guys talk about payment with a regular girl without offending her. I understand that they all need money, but I have no idea how to propose that. I am sure that if the girls knows that besides nice dinner she is surely getting X dollars, she would agree. Next question, how to determine X?!

Thanks!

Just ask her if she would like to spend the day together and have fun. If you hook up, ask if she needs any help.