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[Chocha Monger]

u.s. misread scale of honduran rift
zelaya's ties to venezuela's chávez was source of concern for opponents
by william booth and juan forero
the washington post
updated 6:53 a.m. ct, sun., july 5, 2009

tegucigalpa, honduras - although the u.s. government knew for months that honduras was on the brink of political chaos, officials say they underestimated how fearful the honduran elite and the military were of ousted president manuel zelaya and his ally president hugo chávez of venezuela.

rumors were buzzing in the capital that the fight between zelaya and his conservative opponents had reached the boiling point, but diplomatic officials said the obama administration and its embassy were surprised when honduran soldiers burst into the presidential palace last sunday and removed zelaya from power.

u.s. diplomats had been trying to broker a compromise and were speaking to both sides hours before the coup. for decades, washington has trained the honduran military, and senior u.s. officials say they did not think that the honduran military would carry out a coup.

the overthrow, and the new honduran government's vow to remain in power despite international condemnation, is president obama's first test in a region that had grown distant from the united states.

the crisis also pits obama's nuanced approach to diplomacy against that of an often bellicose rival, chávez, who has taken center stage in the showdown by threatening to overthrow the government that took over from zelaya.

the new honduran leaders said saturday that they will not yield to demands made by the organization of american states to allow zelaya to return to power. the caretaker president, roberto micheletti, threatened that zelaya will be arrested if he returns sunday as promised alongside nicaraguan president daniel ortega and other latin american leaders.

the catholic church appealed for calm. cardinal óscar andrés rodríguez went on the airwaves to beg zelaya to "give us room for a peaceful resolution" and warned that, if zelaya comes back sunday, there could be "a bloodbath."

a shift to the left
when zelaya, 56, a wealthy rancher whose family made its fortune from timber, was elected president in 2005, he was a middle-of-the-road populist from one of honduras's two major parties. but as his presidency progressed, zelaya veered to the left and was in constant conflict with business groups, lawmakers from his own party, the news media and the army.

"over the last year, zelaya's positions moved to the left. he pushed social programs and more attention for the poor who have no work," said giuseppe magno, the outgoing italian ambassador. "this switch was not in line with the program he was voted in on. he was too close to ortega and chávez, a position the middle and upper classes did not appreciate."

but zelaya saw it differently, often telling crowds that honduras needed a fundamental shift to deal with poverty so grinding that 40 percent of the population lives on $2 a day or less. honduras is, in fact, the third-poorest country in the hemisphere, and many residents continue to resent the often painful past involvement of the united states.

in announcing his country's affiliation with a chávez-led alliance, zelaya told crowds that it was designed to "make hondurans a free people." he said that in joining the pact, the bolivarian alternative for the americas, honduras did "not have to ask permission of any imperialists."

zelaya increasingly spoke of the two nations of honduras, one hopelessly poor, the other wealthy and uncaring. he began to argue for "people power," a kind of direct popular democracy.

when he toured the countryside, he staged rallies to ask the people what they wanted, and promised new bridges and clinics on the spot, giving away 100 venezuelan tractors to farmers and speaking against an unnamed oligarchy he called the enemy of the people.

zelaya angered the business community when he raised the minimum monthly wage for hondurans by 60 percent. many companies responded by firing workers. other businesses ignored the decree.

when u.s. ambassador hugo llorens arrived last year, zelaya postponed the ceremony allowing the newly arrived diplomat to present his credentials. he fought with his congress, insisting that lawmakers accept his nominees to the supreme court. he refused to sign the budget and he stalled on dozens of bills approved by the congress. all along, zelaya grew closer to latin america's leftist leaders, especially chávez. he traveled frequently to venezuela, where he stood beside chávez as he gave fiery speeches railing against capitalists.

but adolfo facussé, a business leader who had been friends with zelaya, said the president at first explained his alliance with venezuela in pragmatic, economic terms.

"he said a year ago that he was interested in alba," said facussé, speaking of the bolivarian alternative for the americas, which included cuba, bolivia and nicaragua. "i said it's mostly an anti-american enterprise, and he said that's not what interests me. there is assistance being offered."

facussé said that he invited venezuelan embassy officials to meet with honduran industrialists, adding that it became clear to him and other businessmen that honduras could benefit from venezuela's largess, including the sale of fuel on preferential terms, a line of credit from caracas and outright gifts, such as tractors.

"i reviewed the deal, and i thought it was good," facussé said of zelaya's plan to bring honduras closer to chávez and his cheap fuel.

'so brazen, so upfront'
european diplomats who know zelaya and how he operates described him as a populist nationalist, not an leftist ideologue.

those familiar with the growing crisis said concern about chávez by political opponents was driven by an outsize fear that venezuela had diabolical designs on honduras -- and would have implanted chávez's economic system and style of governance had zelaya been allowed to carry out his referendum.

"it was the same scheme chávez had in venezuela," said benjamin bogran, the new minister of industry and commerce. "chávez considers honduras to be inside his orbit."

elizabeth zuñiga, a member of congress and leader of the nationalist party, said: "little by little, step by step, he was looking at the south americans for help and guidance. they were his new best friends." zuñiga, who supports the ouster, said, "what i believe we were seeing was the evolution of a democratic dictatorship."

armando sarmiento, a member of the ousted zelaya cabinet, who is in hiding, said the fear of chávez and his influence on zelaya lead to the coup. "the right wing believes the myth that president zelaya was going to seek an extra term. but this was not true."

sarmiento pointed out that zelaya wanted to help the country's poor, not nationalize industries or create a socialist economy. "president zelaya had very strong arguments with these people, what the president called the oligarchy, the media, the special interests. there were campaigns of hatred against the president."

doris gutiérrez, a member of congress who opposes the coup, said: "the sector here that supports the move against zelaya has never been so open, so brazen, so upfront before. the situation is going to become more dangerous."

'the political nucleus'
analysts familiar with zelaya's cabinet said he was influenced by a small group of close aides. they included foreign minister patricia rodas, viewed as an ally of ortega's sandinista government in nicaragua and daughter of a popular progressive politician who fled the country after a military coup in 1963. others included milton jiménez, a former foreign minister who analysts said had the most influence on zelaya; enrique flores lanza, zelaya's minister of the presidency and considered the most radical of his aides; and aristides mejía, zelaya's vice president.

"they were the political nucleus, the ideologues of manuel zelaya," said jorge yllescas, an economist who is a member of civic union, a coalition of 60 groups opposed to zelaya. "they were the ones who really had the ideological line. when mel got to the presidency, he was liberal, but within a year he had a different tendency from his own ideology."

but the same diplomats are puzzled about exactly what zelaya was after in his attempt to rewrite the constitution. the boiling point came when zelaya began to push for a national survey, a kind of nonbinding referendum for a constitutional assembly that could led to a new law that allowed a president to serve more than one term. but honduras's lengthy, sometimes contradictory document contains language that makes a person a traitor for even suggesting such a change.

as zelaya pressed ahead with his plan to hold the vote last sunday, the day of the coup, the leader of the honduran military, gen. romeo vásquez, balked, because the supreme court told him that the referendum was illegal. zelaya tried to fire vásquez, which further riled the military.

"look, we're democratic and here we respect the ideologies of other countries," said gabriela nuñez, the new finance minister. "but we do not want to change our system of government."


url: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31745453...n_post/page/2/

[Sammon]

Chocha,

I couldn't have said it better myself. When is the US going to stop intruding into the rest of the world's affairs. We have enough problems at home that need addressing. Start with getting in step with the rest of the world and legalizing prostitution.

How can US be a world power broker if it minds its own business?
We in US live well because of our controlling world economy. A superpower has a say in affairs of other countries. While many think it is lopsided argument there should be a superpower to keep the whole world in order. Otherwise individual countries will do whatever they want and hurt their citizens.There are too many unscrupulous politicians in many countries .
Look at this honduran president. He wants to be president for life. He has no respect for the supreme court which decided agaist term extension fairly or not. Any other president would have respected the courts decision. No, he wants his way or no way. Nobody needs a dictator. We have enough stupid dictators in this world who make it miserable for their citizens.

[Generous Gent]

Interesting....I always thought our politicians were just a pack of legalized prostitutes as it is? One way or another, they are selling their ass....

Chocha,

I couldn't have said it better myself. When is the US going to stop intruding into the rest of the world's affairs. We have enough problems at home that need addressing. Start with getting in step with the rest of the world and legalizing prostitution.

[NYCmat]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062904239.html

In this article you will see politics at its best. From what I'm gathering is that the US is not supporting Chavez or the former president. What they are arguing is the way a elected official was removed from office and then exiled that started at 5am in the morning. And then replacing him with someone else other then a elected official by the people. It wasnt about anything other then that I'm sure.

Lets never forget how they cured the gang problem in ciebe. The jail fire? LOL I love telling people that story.

I also love the way people say its all the US. Anyone else see the league of nations doing anything? There are plenty of people who have opinions that differ. But now that all has been coming out, they are not arguing the constitution. What the real argument or what Congress should have done was to allow a emergency election due to circumstances and did it asap. But they are not. Instead they have someone else there for about 5 months before the election. That goes against democracy. Thats what the US is saying.

[FadeToJade]

Chocha,

I couldn't have said it better myself. When is the US going to stop intruding into the rest of the world's affairs. We have enough problems at home that need addressing. Start with getting in step with the rest of the world and legalizing prostitution.

[Chocha Monger]

The reaction of foreign governments to Zelaya’s ouster is perplexing. Why in the world do they want to return this man to power? It seems cut and dry that he went against his country’s constitution in an attempt to remain in or return to office after his four year term in office expired. He was warned that his actions were illegal by the congress, the courts and party members. Instead he chose to ignore the constitution and hold a rogue referendum in true dictatorship style. The courts ordered him to be stopped like any other criminal. If anything the Honduran military demonstrated restraint. Had a Nicolae Ceausescu scenario been played out none of these foreign governments would be coming forth with ridiculous demands today.

It is true that he was a democratically elected president but he violated the terms of his office and opened the way for his removal. Now foreign countries seem determined to precipitate some kind of conflict to reinstate him. I hope Honduran citizens are not subjected to another “Guerra Sucia.” This should be a classic case demonstrating why foreign powers should not meddle in the domestic affairs of sovereign nations.

Talk about strange bedfellows! The US, EU, and Taiwan team up with Venezuela’s Chavez and Nicaragua’s Ortega to gangbang poor little Honduras. It’s really disgusting.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31604879...news-americas/

Sunday morning about 8:30am walking about town, there were protestors outside the municipality next to the park. Shouts of Chavez and burning trash or whatever in the street sort of made me think it is best to avoid this mess.

We missed the second half of the Brazil/USA game because congress swore in the new president; a curfew was imposed, and it appears there is virtually no traffic on the streets this morning. it is early, but generally trucks are whizzing up and down the street where i live.

All fast food joints were closed yesterday, Malls (Ceiba), and maybe no gas today. About 90% of the people were glad to see Zelaya ousted; he was using the ignorant and illiterate (campesinos) to gain what he wanted, citing big business. banks, etc. (and he bring from a logging family) were destroying the economy.

The next ferw days will be interesting. i find it incredible that the US government condemned this coup; El Presidente has denounced the USA, and sided with and wanted to be a little Chavez in a little country. When this happened in Venezuela, the US government couldn't wait to send congratulations to the 'new' president. I am beginning to understand why we are so hated throughout the world....

[Generous Gent]

Sunday morning about 8:30am walking about town, there were protestors outside the municipality next to the park. Shouts of Chavez and burning trash or whatever in the street sort of made me think it is best to avoid this mess.

We missed the second half of the Brazil/USA game because congress swore in the new president; a curfew was imposed, and it appears there is virtually no traffic on the streets this morning. it is early, but generally trucks are whizzing up and down the street where i live.

All fast food joints were closed yesterday, Malls (Ceiba), and maybe no gas today. About 90% of the people were glad to see Zelaya ousted; he was using the ignorant and illiterate (campesinos) to gain what he wanted, citing big business. banks, etc. (and he bring from a logging family) were destroying the economy.

The next ferw days will be interesting. i find it incredible that the US government condemned this coup; El Presidente has denounced the USA, and sided with and wanted to be a little Chavez in a little country. When this happened in Venezuela, the US government couldn't wait to send congratulations to the 'new' president. I am beginning to understand why we are so hated throughout the world....

Generous Gent,
Have you noticed any civil disturbances since President Zelaya has been arrested and flown to an undisclosed location by the Honduran military this morning?

[Chocha Monger]

Generous Gent,
Have you noticed any civil disturbances since President Zelaya has been arrested and flown to an undisclosed location by the Honduran military this morning?

[Meat Loaf]

A long time friend who participates and enjoys the charms of a young woman found himself breaking the cardinal rule of sleeping with a street gal. Drunk to begin with, he returns to his hotel room (he lives about 50 kilometers outside Ceiba) with a hot little chilipepper and has what appeared to be a great night.

Until the morning.... drunk, puckered out, and fell asleep. With the girl, no less. Which means he woke up missing a few items. Items like a billfold and I.D., Cell phone (go figure), and 12,000 lempira's lighter.

We can never really prevent some form of theft but this was just stupid - and not the first time for this guy. It is habitual, whereas he has a very weak constitution when it comes to getting a nut.

Anyhow, be careful out there boys.... can't trust any of them. If she selling it, she's also stealing. Prostitution and theft go together like rice and beans.

Excellent Post.

[Generous Gent]

A long time friend who participates and enjoys the charms of a young woman found himself breaking the cardinal rule of sleeping with a street gal. Drunk to begin with, he returns to his hotel room (he lives about 50 kilometers outside Ceiba) with a hot little chilipepper and has what appeared to be a great night.

Until the morning.... drunk, puckered out, and fell asleep. With the girl, no less. Which means he woke up missing a few items. Items like a billfold and I.D., Cell phone (go figure), and 12,000 lempira's lighter.

We can never really prevent some form of theft but this was just stupid - and not the first time for this guy. It is habitual, whereas he has a very weak constitution when it comes to getting a nut.

Anyhow, be careful out there boys.... can't trust any of them. If she selling it, she's also stealing. Prostitution and theft go together like rice and beans.

[Member #4167]

because of the concern on the forum, i did some research. the following excerpt is from the british government's foreign and commonwealth office.

honduras
still current at: 07 october 2008
updated: 21 august 2008

crime

there are high levels of crime in honduras. the majority of serious crime involves honduran citizens and does not affect tourists. however, there have been attacks on tourists in recent years, including armed robbery, car/busjackings and sexual offences including [CodeWord123]. in october 2007, two incidents of busjackings occurred involving british and german tour bus groups in santa rita, on the road between san pedro sula and copan.

for more general infomration see [CodeWord123] and sexual assault abroad.

the main type of incident for which british nationals require consular assistance in honduras is for pickpocketing and loss of passports. petty theft is a problem in cities and tourist areas, including the bay islands. you should be particularly careful of your belongings at bus stations, airports, tourist places and on public transport. you should keep your valuables locked away in a safe or keep them on your person when travelling.

despite the high levels of crime most visits to honduras are trouble-free. however, the risk of becoming a victim exists and you should take steps to mitigate the risk. you should take your personal security seriously and be aware of your surroundings at all times. the following advice may help:

particular attention should be taken if travelling between towns and cities at night. we advise against walking around tegucigalpa, san pedro sula and other main towns and cities on mainland honduras after dark.

the bay islands are generally safer than mainland honduras. however there have been several attacks on visitors at the bay islands including on the ferries to/from mainland honduras. you should remain aware of your surroundings and take sensible precautions when travelling on the bay islands.

you should avoid walking in quiet areas after dark, in particular on beaches in tela and the north coast towns. there have been several attacks on foreigners on beaches in recent years after dark, including on the bay islands. you should not resist when being robbed. victims have been killed and injured resisting attack. it is useful to carry a few lempiras to hand out in the event of a robbery.

you should avoid displaying items of value such as cameras, mp3 players and mobile phones. this is particularly important when arriving at the airport. there have been instances of foreigners being targeted when leaving the vicinity of the airports in san pedro sula and tegucigalpa. you are advised not to wear expensive jewellery and only carry minimal amounts of cash when travelling in honduras.

you should take care travelling alone in honduras. when travelling to remote areas it may be safer to travel with others or take part in a tour with a reputable company. the same applies to walking on trails and at historical places, as there have been reports of attacks on tourists walking alone. you should never accept lifts from strangers or attempt to hitchhike anywhere in honduras.

you should take care travelling in honduras as there have been reports of violent attacks on cars and buses in recent years. we advise against travelling on microbuses (colectivos) in large cities such as tegucigalpa and san pedro sula for security reasons. you should exercise caution when driving in honduras on certain routes as car jackings have occurred. please see the local travel section of this travel advice for more details.

it is safer to withdraw money from atms in shopping centres or change money in hotels or banks. it is wise not to withdraw too much money at one time. there have been attacks on foreigners after they have withdrawn money from atms. you should avoid withdrawing money at night.

petty crime is widespread in urban areas, and at tourist sites. you should be particularly careful of your belongings at bus stations, airports, crowded tourist places and on buses. theft is common on roatan and the bay islands. you should keep your valuables locked away in a safe or keep them on your person when travelling. travel with several sources of funds: cash, travellers’ cheques (in us dollars), credit cards, etc, but keep them safe and in separate places. carry a photocopy of your passport for identification purposes. although it is illegal to be without some form of identification in honduras, a photocopy is acceptable.

for more general information see victims of crime abroad.

political situation

honduras country profile

demonstrations occur in honduras from time to time, sometimes with little warning. they can become violent and disrupt movement. you are advised to avoid large gatherings or demonstrations.

the honduran constitution prohibits political activities by foreigners, and participation in activities such as demonstrations may result in detention and/or deportation.

local travel

you should take care travelling in honduras as there have been reports of violent attacks on cars and buses in recent years. particular care should be taken if travelling on microbuses (colectivos) in large cities such as tegucigalpa and san pedro sula for security reasons. travelling on major roads between large towns/cities is safer than travelling on more remote routes.

when travelling by car, it is safer to travel on main roads between major cities and destinations. you are at greater risk of attack in remote areas with fewer police patrols. take simple precautions such as locking doors and keeping windows closed whilst travelling. do not travel between towns/cities after dark as you greatly increase the risk of attack.

roads that have seen attacks in recent years include routes from limones to la union and also from olancho via salama to saba. you should exercise particular caution on the roads from gualaco to san estaban and la esparanza to gracias. the isolated roads of the department of santa barbara have also seen criminal activity, and hijackings of vehicles have occurred on roads in/around tela, la ceiba, trujillo and el progreso. in october 2007, two incidents of busjackings have occurred involving british and german tour bus groups in santa rita, on the road between san pedro sula and copan.

you should pay attention to your security at the border areas with guatemala, el salvador and nicaragua. in particular, travellers have been targeted by armed robbers after crossing the honduran border into el salvador. you should avoid openly changing large amounts of money and make sure valuables are kept out of sight. it is often better to cross borders in the morning as borders sometimes close in the early evening or remain unmanned at nights. it also allows time for you to reach your destination before dark.

there are unmarked minefields in/around the border with nicaragua. you should exercise caution and avoid walking on unmarked paths or off main roads in these areas.

[Generous Gent]

I have been sort of under the radar lately chasing a new novia, but there was an American in San Pedro Sula who (American) was kidnapped. Seems this person worked at a hotel, and there may have been more to it. Have not heard of anything since.

We were all worried last month when dia la Independencia came around. The military was everywhere blocking streets in Ceiba, as a coup was expected. And then talk of a revolution. See, Mel wanted to change the constitution so he could remain president indefinitely. A Chavez wannabe, and many other Latin countries are following suit.

I wouldn't cancel any trips; in fact if anyone saw the Mel/Chavez deal for Alba on TV or in the newspapers, it seems Mel was supposed to pay 500 liems per person for those who attended. Something like 5000 people, and he refused to pay when the cameras went off. Not very popular here, however 50 something percent of the money in this country is from the USA and the people know they need the USA to survive.

And gas....all fuel comes from Venezuela at a greatly reduced price and we don't see any change at the pumps. People are really upset because he is amassing a tidy fortune on the backs of the poor people. He never cared about them and although some may be practically uneducated, they're not completely stupid.

I visited Comayagua about a month ago and didn't experience any anti-US sentiment though I paid close attention to President Chavez as he tried to stir some up during his visit to Tegucigalpa. Most of these killings usually have something to do with money, property or women. Politically motivated killings of North Americans is very rare in Honduras. The protests in from of the base has more to do with the Honduran government's failure to pay civil servant salaries in recent months around the same time that the population is feeling the pressure of high fuel prices and rising food costs. Staging the demonstration in front of the base gets more media coverage but the choice of location usually has little to do with any sentiments about the US. Most Hondos just want a salary and affordable food. They don't want to become Chavistas.

I won't cancel my trip based solely on those occurrences. The military always errs on the side of extreme caution so the base lock down is no surprise.

[Chocha Monger]

My boy who is a stationed in Comayagua informed me that an American contractor was murdered in Comayagua about three weeks ago. All soliders have been confined to the base since then.

Lil Sister (see my previous post) advised me that an American was also killed in Tegucigalpa. My boy was unaware of this. It appears there is strong anti-North American sentiment right now. There have been protest in front of the base in Comayagua.

Just a heads up to anyone planning a trip. I decided to cancel my trip in Noviembre due to this information as well as, the tanking economy here in the states.

If anyone has any accurate information (Generous Gent) regarding these killings please post it.

I visited Comayagua about a month ago and didn't experience any anti-US sentiment though I paid close attention to President Chavez as he tried to stir some up during his visit to Tegucigalpa. Most of these killings usually have something to do with money, property or women. Politically motivated killings of North Americans is very rare in Honduras. The protests in from of the base has more to do with the Honduran government's failure to pay civil servant salaries in recent months around the same time that the population is feeling the pressure of high fuel prices and rising food costs. Staging the demonstration in front of the base gets more media coverage but the choice of location usually has little to do with any sentiments about the US. Most Hondos just want a salary and affordable food. They don't want to become Chavistas.

I won't cancel my trip based solely on those occurrences. The military always errs on the side of extreme caution so the base lock down is no surprise.

[Seeker32]

My boy who is a stationed in Comayagua informed me that an American contractor was murdered in Comayagua about three weeks ago. All soliders have been confined to the base since then.

Lil Sister (see my previous post) advised me that an American was also killed in Tegucigalpa. My boy was unaware of this. It appears there is strong anti-North American sentiment right now. There have been protest in front of the base in Comayagua.

Just a heads up to anyone planning a trip. I decided to cancel my trip in Noviembre due to this information as well as, the tanking economy here in the states.

If anyone has any accurate information (Generous Gent) regarding these killings please post it.

[Chocha Monger]

a friend had tigo wireless which was under contract for a year. lousy, slower than slow speed, and tigo nailed him for every bit of service (6 months @ $15 + termination fee) when he quit the service. the problem here is the contract - if you fail to pay they will definitely arrest you when you return. oh yeah - they wanted the card back too.

most larger hotels have free wireless and just sitting poolside usually means you avoided a cyber cafe...

generous gent:
thanks for the info. you've confirmed what i heard about tigo, slow service. i heard that claro has much better service. if i can't get claro without the contract i'll go ahead and use the hotel's service as you recommend. getting arrested over internet service doesn't sound like something i want to try. i've seen honduran prisons and forced labor gangs, while they don't seem to deter locals from crime they are quite effective at doing so when it comes to americans. if the maras don't kill you the periodic "accidental" fires will.