Stupid shit in Medellin

[JjBee62]

Oh, wonderful doctors who created the super bacteria by prescribing antibiotics for everything, even a scratch. Doctors give antibiotics for the flu, and yet the flu is a virus not a bacteria. The flu can cause other problems which do require antibiotics. I have talked to several nurses about this and they say the doctor gives the fussy parent the antibiotic as a placebo just to get the parent and the kid out the door. Kids lose their teeth all the time with no problems. Now dentists hand out antibiotics for that. I never had an infection from a pulled or lost tooth.

The reason doctors are always late is that they are busy talking to pharmaceutical sales representatives in the hallway between patients. My cousin was a new pharmaceutical sales representative 20 years ago. He was given a company credit card with $35,000 to spend on the receptionist, nurses, and doctors on flowers, food, etc. He could get in trouble if he did not spend the money. Pharma buying doctors and ethics there. Does the opioid crisis ring a bell?

Doctors implanting basketball sized silicone boobs. That even defies all sense of logic. Doctors take several ethics classes so how the hell do silicone boobs even exist in the first place?

Doctors have no common sense now like in the days of the past. The doctors used to ask tons of questions to help solve the problem. Now the doctor asks maybe 3 questions and then it is off to get a ton of X-rays, crap and urine tests, and a whole plethora of blood tests. I would take a doctor practicing in the 60's, 70's, or 80's before any of the current doctors out there.

I have 3 doctors, a family practice doctor and 2 specialists. I've never had one of them be late. My last visit I was called in before I could fill out the questionnaire, and I had arrived 20 minutes early. Each of them ask several questions and take the time to discuss my condition, treatment and where we are headed.

I've had doctors like you described, but I replace any who don't meet my needs.

As for why there are silicone implants, I know of one reason. My wife had a double radical mastectomy. Which means her breasts were completely removed. She was given implants, which allowed her to retain her feminine shape.

If you want to go off on a rant, why don't you mention ED drugs, hair loss drugs and therapies and all the rest?

[Fun Luvr]

I don't hate those cops and firemen who are refusing the vaccine on the grounds of "personal freedom", I just think they're being incredibly stupid. They are victims of this pernicious anti-vaccine propaganda, which is being promulgated by the right wing for purely political reasons.

Please list any member of the "right-wing" who is advocating for others to not get vaccinated. As for politics, this is what Kamala Harris said about the vaccine in the Vice Presidential debate in October of last year "If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I'll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I'm not taking it.".

[Huacho]

I hope I did a reasonable job of supporting my position too.

I would probably want you on my debate team (as long as we did not physically have to be in the same room) because you were able to come up with some ideas to support a position that is just plain unsustainable, wrong, and dangerous. Your analogies in your prior post were completely ridiculous because learning disabled people getting run over is not contagious and viruses ARE. But you don't care about who you infect as all your arguments are based on what's best for YOU and your fringy beliefs about vivisection and whatnot.

[The Cane]

Where did Adolf Hitler say he got his way of doing things? He just followed the example of America.

And that of the Ottomans regarding the Armenians.

[JustTK]

My country has a history of preaching one thing and practicing another.
I am called free as long as I am doing what you are making me do. The minute I no longer want to follow the path that I am pushed into, freedom REVOKED! The pandemic has definitely shown me that this freedom rhetoric is definitely a sham.

"We now live in a nation where doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and our banks destroy the economy. " ― Chris Hedges.

[LoveItHere69]

Especially in the case of these (mRNA) vaccines (and I'm speaking as a medical doctor with a background in public health).

Oh, wonderful doctors who created the super bacteria by prescribing antibiotics for everything, even a scratch. Doctors give antibiotics for the flu, and yet the flu is a virus not a bacteria. The flu can cause other problems which do require antibiotics. I have talked to several nurses about this and they say the doctor gives the fussy parent the antibiotic as a placebo just to get the parent and the kid out the door. Kids lose their teeth all the time with no problems. Now dentists hand out antibiotics for that. I never had an infection from a pulled or lost tooth.

The reason doctors are always late is that they are busy talking to pharmaceutical sales representatives in the hallway between patients. My cousin was a new pharmaceutical sales representative 20 years ago. He was given a company credit card with $35,000 to spend on the receptionist, nurses, and doctors on flowers, food, etc. He could get in trouble if he did not spend the money. Pharma buying doctors and ethics there. Does the opioid crisis ring a bell?

Doctors implanting basketball sized silicone boobs. That even defies all sense of logic. Doctors take several ethics classes so how the hell do silicone boobs even exist in the first place?

Doctors have no common sense now like in the days of the past. The doctors used to ask tons of questions to help solve the problem. Now the doctor asks maybe 3 questions and then it is off to get a ton of X-rays, crap and urine tests, and a whole plethora of blood tests. I would take a doctor practicing in the 60's, 70's, or 80's before any of the current doctors out there.

[MarquisdeSade1]

I have the same reaction at being told what to do (maybe we all do). It certainly applies to anything my wife tells me to do, or on the occasions that someone has threatened to sue me or punch me unless I obeyed them, my inclination is to resist. However, as I'm sure you will admit, it clearly can be a non productive reaction. Especially in the case of these (mRNA) vaccines (and I'm speaking as a medical doctor with a backround in public health):

1) The vaccines are amazing. Almost 3 billion people have been fully vaccinated and the adverse effects have been more closely monitored than any drug or vaccine in history. They are incredibly safe and amazingly (in the case of the mRNA vaccines) effective.

2) The vaccines make your immune system stronger. They make you a stronger human being.

3) For all our beliefs about free will, individualism, etc, really, we are part of humanity. This is not just about our personal health. We prosper when humanity prospers. When this disease appeared, we had the brief opportunity to join with all other humans in all other countries and crush it completely out of existance. That's what we did with SARS 1. It is clearly in our interest that we vaccinate as many people on earth. That includes all the poor parts of Africa, Asia, South America -- because it's in our interest. Look at how dead this site has been for the last twenty months -- we want to travel freely and party in Thailand, or the DR, we clearly want this disease to be beaten into submission. We should be paying for the vaccines there because it is good for us. I know we like to believe we are independent, but really, from an epidemiological point of view, we need to protect everyone to protect ourselves.

I don't hate those cops and firemen who are refusing the vaccine on the grounds of "personal freedom", I just think they're being incredibly stupid. They are victims of this pernicious anti-vaccine propaganda, which is being promulgated by the right wing for purely political reasons.

https://amgreatness.com/2021/10/17/l...onomy-matters/

[John Clayton]

...I am called free as long as I am doing what you are making me do. The minute I no longer want to follow the path that I am pushed into, freedom REVOKED! The pandemic has definitely shown me that this freedom rhetoric is definitely a sham.

I have the same reaction at being told what to do (maybe we all do). It certainly applies to anything my wife tells me to do, or on the occasions that someone has threatened to sue me or punch me unless I obeyed them, my inclination is to resist. However, as I'm sure you will admit, it clearly can be a non productive reaction. Especially in the case of these (mRNA) vaccines (and I'm speaking as a medical doctor with a backround in public health):

1) The vaccines are amazing. Almost 3 billion people have been fully vaccinated and the adverse effects have been more closely monitored than any drug or vaccine in history. They are incredibly safe and amazingly (in the case of the mRNA vaccines) effective.

2) The vaccines make your immune system stronger. They make you a stronger human being.

3) For all our beliefs about free will, individualism, etc, really, we are part of humanity. This is not just about our personal health. We prosper when humanity prospers. When this disease appeared, we had the brief opportunity to join with all other humans in all other countries and crush it completely out of existance. That's what we did with SARS 1. It is clearly in our interest that we vaccinate as many people on earth. That includes all the poor parts of Africa, Asia, South America -- because it's in our interest. Look at how dead this site has been for the last twenty months -- we want to travel freely and party in Thailand, or the DR, we clearly want this disease to be beaten into submission. We should be paying for the vaccines there because it is good for us. I know we like to believe we are independent, but really, from an epidemiological point of view, we need to protect everyone to protect ourselves.

I don't hate those cops and firemen who are refusing the vaccine on the grounds of "personal freedom", I just think they're being incredibly stupid. They are victims of this pernicious anti-vaccine propaganda, which is being promulgated by the right wing for purely political reasons.

[Mr Enternational]

On a personal note, I have mentioned here before but not to you directly, I am against taking the vax. This is bcos I am anti-vivisection and I do not want to support industries that conduct animal testing.

I am not anti-vax. I am anti hypocritical bullshit. My country has a history of preaching one thing and practicing another. You better not have slaves and treat people bad, meanwhile we are over here with slaves and treating people bad. Where did Adolf Hitler say he got his way of doing things? He just followed the example of America.

They fill the population with BS to get them to do what they want. Why is it not mandatory for the mfs that are making laws for everyone to be vaccinated to be vaccinated themselves? That is some red flag do what we say and not what we do stuff to me.

Why was everybody heros for going out bravely working during the pandemic when there was no vaccine to speak of, and now those same people are billed as selfish pieces of shit not even worthy of having a job when they want to forego taking the vaccine and risking their own lives same as before? Same as me being a military veteran. Thanks for your service to the country, but fuck you you do not deserve shit because you don't want to take a vaccine.

This kind of shit just gets my goat. I am called free as long as I am doing what you are making me do. The minute I no longer want to follow the path that I am pushed into, freedom REVOKED! The pandemic has definitely shown me that this freedom rhetoric is definitely a sham.

[JjBee62]

Its good that we can have this conversation. I want to think about the thought experiment you posed at the end. But in the meantime I wanted to make a couple of comments:

"One of my buddies was diagnosed with ALS. ".

What about my buddy who has learning difficiculties. If I let him out in to the streets alone, there is a good chance he will get run over. Shall we ban cars so that we can protect him and others like him?

(This is a totally inviented hypothetical BTW. I am just trying to identify if there is any material difference between the scenarios.).

Or here's another. Some people are allergic to bee stings. Shall we eradicate all bees from urban areas to protect them?

There are always situations where some people are at greater risk than others. Is it fair to make the mitigation of their risk encumbent upon others?

The second thing I want to say is that I think Marcus Aurelius was one of the greatest. Superb thinker amd moralist for his time.

I'm sure others will point this out to you, but neither learning disabilities, nor bee stings are contagious. If your hypothetical friend is hit by a car, the driver isn't going to infect everyone he comes in contact with, with learning disabilities. That only happens at political rallies.

Instead try this:

Last year I had strep throat while in Medellin. The girl who transmitted it to me, admitted afterwards she had been sick, but didn't want to miss seeing me (or seeing my money). With antibiotics, strep has a contagious period of about 24 hours if you take antibiotics, about 2 weeks without antibiotics.

Should everyone else stay home for 2 weeks to prevent infection because I don't want to take antibiotics? Or should I either take antibiotics and stay home for a day, or for 2 weeks if I choose not to take the antibiotics?

It's not an entirely accurate analogy, but at least it's a discussion of relatable situations.

With strep throat at least it's usually easy to know what you have. So going out, or taking antibiotics is pretty clear cut decision. With Covid there's a good chance you have no idea whether or not you're contagious, or whether someone else is. Some cases are mild enough nobody considers being tested. Some people believe they have a complete natural immunity (which hasn't been tested). In some cases none of the symptoms match up with what anyone expects and Covid isn't considered a possibility, which is what happened to me.

There's also the problem of not knowing the risk for the people infected by the people who you might infect.

[JustTK]

Let's take your "approach" and play it out just a little, shall we? Let's say everyone in the world was just like you. Oh wait. There wouldn't be a world because small-pox, polio, and every other plague known to man would have decimated the world's population to near nothingness.
You must be a vegan or maybe just a vegetarian? I am BTW. So why spend your time rationalizing the avoidance of a vaccine that is saving millions of lives, when you would use your energy to attack the food factories that torture and abuse animals in order to make oversized profits and generally damage the health of the end users?
If you really wanted to do some good you would make generous and extra generous donations to PETA or similar organizations, instead of tilting at windmills. Oh and I'm sure you're aware that animal testing is disappearing rapidly given the advances in technology which have led to the cloning of human cells for use in testing.
BTW I didn't see the need to call you names. I strongly disagree with most of what you say but we can disagree as adults without resorting to childish insults, right Elvis and MarquisdeSade1?

No, you didn't insult me. But you did strawman my position and loaded your response w a heavy dose of sarcasm. (shrug) No worries, I have broad shoulders.

If everyone adopted my approach. Pharma would produce medicines that have not been tested on animals, so no extra diseases would exist. The world would be populated with just as many healthy people, but with more happy animals. Hehe. As you agree, animal testing is going to become a thing of the past.

I am a vegan, and I do dedicate my time to veganism. I am a vegan activist and I run a popular vegan website directory (volunteer work for 15+ years). My business donates to PETA, various shark alliances and seahorse conservancies. Thanks for the advise though.

[Villainy]

On a personal note, I have mentioned here before but not to you directly, I am against taking the vax. This is bcos I am anti-vivisection and I do not want to support industries that conduct animal testing. Many people argue that animal testing is necessary, but that is neither true nor would it be persuasive. Pharma tests on animals bcos it is cheap and bcos it is legal. If we took away that right, they would use other methods to obtain the same information. Proof of this lies in the recent history of animal testing in the cosmetics industry. For decades cosmetics companies argued it was necessary. When the EU finally stopped listening to their lies and banned it, they switched to other methods and there have been no negative medical issues since. Further I do not believe we have the moral right to subject a non-consenting sentient being to be tortured for the benefit of others. Imagine if we took your child or wife (or whoever you love) and did the same thing. I am therefore not an anti-vaxer per se, rather I am an anti-animal-tested-vaxer...

Let's take your "approach" and play it out just a little, shall we? Let's say everyone in the world was just like you. Oh wait. There wouldn't be a world because small-pox, polio, and every other plague known to man would have decimated the world's population to near nothingness. I'm sure you're consistent. Right? So to stand by what you call your principles, you must not take any medications whatsoever. Afterall we can't do anything to support the pharmaceutical companies. Right? I also assume given your principles that you don't step on spiders or swat flies or smack mosquitoes right?

You must be a vegan or maybe just a vegetarian? I am BTW. So why spend your time rationalizing the avoidance of a vaccine that is saving millions of lives, when you would use your energy to attack the food factories that torture and abuse animals in order to make oversized profits and generally damage the health of the end users?

If you really wanted to do some good you would make generous and extra generous donations to PETA or similar organizations, instead of tilting at windmills. Oh and I'm sure you're aware that animal testing is disappearing rapidly given the advances in technology which have led to the cloning of human cells for use in testing.

BTW I didn't see the need to call you names. I strongly disagree with most of what you say but we can disagree as adults without resorting to childish insults, right Elvis and MarquisdeSade1?

[JustTK]

here is a simple thought experiment: assume you have two populations that are identical in demographics, genetic background, socioeconomics, everything. In one population everybody agrees to take a vaccine that is safe and shows some effectiveness, in the other population this is not the case. Can you describe a set of circumstances where the fully vaccinated would be worse off than the not fully vaccinated if the same policies were implemented?

Yes, I can think of 2.

1. Everything has an opportunity cost. So if the financial costs associated with developing and administering the vaccines outweigh the benefits then the net effect would be negative.

2. If the social and / or psychological fallout of the vax program outweighs the benefits. So let's say some people suffer trauma from being forced in to having a vax, realizing that they are living in an authoritarian state where their freedom of choice has been taken away.

On a personal note, I have mentioned here before but not to you directly, I am against taking the vax. This is bcos I am anti-vivisection and I do not want to support industries that conduct animal testing. Many people argue that animal testing is necessary, but that is neither true nor would it be persuasive. Pharma tests on animals bcos it is cheap and bcos it is legal. If we took away that right, they would use other methods to obtain the same information. Proof of this lies in the recent history of animal testing in the cosmetics industry. For decades cosmetics companies argued it was necessary. When the EU finally stopped listening to their lies and banned it, they switched to other methods and there have been no negative medical issues since. Further I do not believe we have the moral right to subject a non-consenting sentient being to be tortured for the benefit of others. Imagine if we took your child or wife (or whoever you love) and did the same thing. I am therefore not an anti-vaxer per se, rather I am an anti-animal-tested-vaxer.

I must say that I have enjoyed this back and forth. You have presented your arguments eloquently and provided context that I hadn't really considered before. I hope I did a reasonable job of supporting my position too.

[JustTK]

You hit the nail on the head! I think it is fair to say that polio has been eradicated in the US.

Its good that we can have this conversation. I want to think about the thought experiment you posed at the end. But in the meantime I wanted to make a couple of comments:

"One of my buddies was diagnosed with ALS. ".

What about my buddy who has learning difficiculties. If I let him out in to the streets alone, there is a good chance he will get run over. Shall we ban cars so that we can protect him and others like him?

(This is a totally inviented hypothetical BTW. I am just trying to identify if there is any material difference between the scenarios.).

Or here's another. Some people are allergic to bee stings. Shall we eradicate all bees from urban areas to protect them?

There are always situations where some people are at greater risk than others. Is it fair to make the mitigation of their risk encumbent upon others?

The second thing I want to say is that I think Marcus Aurelius was one of the greatest. Superb thinker amd moralist for his time.

[Ptrbrgr]

There is a very big difference here:

Polio 99% effective, 18+ years.

Measles 96% effective, lifelong.

COVID 39-47%, 5 minutes. Whoops! . 5 months.

No case of polio has originated in USA since the 1970's bcos the virus HAS been eliminated in the USA bcos the vas was so highly effective! 99% compared to 40%-ish. The virus WAS prevented from circulating, whereas COVID will not. COVID will always find new hosts unless pharma can get the long term effectiveness much higher. It is not the case right now. Note also: that WHO refuses vaccine licenses if the efficacy is below 50% . I wonder what the future holds for the current Pfizer vaccine.

You hit the nail on the head! I think it is fair to say that polio has been eradicated in the US. But this is not solely because of the super-high effectiveness of the vaccine, it is because of the effectiveness of the vaccine in combination with the fact that virtually everybody is vaccinated. If the vaccination rate would only be 70% say, the first polio-infected traveler to the US under all probability would start the next outbreak. I agree, with SARS-CoV-2 we will never get down to these low prevalences. But as long as the vaccines have some effectiveness in preventing infection and / or transmission, it is a fact that higher vaccination rates mean less circulation, less disease, fewer things to worry about. And the verdict is still out whether or not some local herd immunity can be achieved. If R0 in some place like New Zealand can permanently be dropped to less than 1, then the answer is yes. It doesn't mean the virus is eradicated, it simply means there aren't a ton of transmissions and things are not getting out of hand.

It is true but I think that is an unfair comparison. The "unvaccinated" is a pool of people some have natural immunity, many do not. I would love to see a study that measures vaccinated against natural immunity at 6 months. Have you seen any studies on that?

Absolutely agree. But I think you might be shooting yourself in the foot a bit as far as your argument is concerned. If you were to take out the previously infected from the comparison group, the (relative) benefits for the vaccinated would be even larger.

But to answer your question: I am not aware of a definitive answer either. There are a bunch of lab studies reporting what happens on the molecular level, but that doesn't necessarily translate into real life outcomes, and I imagine it will be tricky to get an accurate estimate from epidemiological studies because of the survivor bias, for one. The vaccine doesn't kill you, but the virus may well do so. If you had a virus that would kill people unless they were Superman, then comparing outcomes between vaccinated and previously infected would likely show much better outcomes for the previously infected, because they are all like Superman. You don't have to be Superman to survive a SARS-CoV-2 infection, but it tends to kill the most vulnerable, so the survivors on average are younger, fitter, etc.

There is of course the infamous study from Israel our buddy Elvis was peddling, where the authors found that vaccinated people had a 13-fold increase in infection risk compared to people with a previous natural infection, and the odds of hospitalization were eight times higher (no joke). However, anyone who knows a bit about the field and looks at it for five minutes sees more red flags in this short pre-print than you see in Havana on May Day. There mere fact that the levels of a factor they matched on showed odds ratios of 161 (with upper confidence interval bound of 1300!) did not stop them at all ploughing forward. The study design and approach were so deeply flawed it would have been funny, except for all the nonsense being propagated.

I don't dispute that the vax helps prevent deaths in the vaxd. What I dispute is that it is effective in preventing deaths in the non-vaxd what I mean by this is I hear the claim all the time that it is selfish to not have the vax bcos you put those immune compromised non-vaxd people at risk. Well, I don't accept that. We have to accept some level of risk in everything we do driving cars, drinking alcohol. We can't simply claim its selfish to drive a car because it might kill old people that can't cross the road quick enough. Also the claim ignores non-vaxd people with natural immunity.

I am 100% with you on having to accept some risks in real life. But maybe consider the following. One of my buddies was diagnosed with ALS. If he catches the virus, it will be bad news. He is vaccinated, but it is unclear whether he was able to produce enough antibodies to have a realistic chance to fight off an infection. He could go into complete isolation, but if you only have a bit of time left on the clock, that doesn't sound very appealing. So he still hangs out with his friends, and we do accept that there is some risk. I know I decrease the risk of him getting infected by being vaccinated. By how much I do not know, but I know the difference is not zero. This is the least bit I think I can do for him. The dad of another friend is battling cancer, and if he gets infected, the outcome will be the same as it was for Colin Powell. So my friend has to be super careful. What kind of friendship would that be if I thought getting a pinch in the arm was too much trouble, especially under those circumstances? You might say there isn't anyone in your circle who is at high risk. But if the two of us were to hang out some time in Medellin over a cup of coffee or a beer to discuss this, you would be two contacts away from my buddy with ALS. That's how fast that goes. So even if there was nothing in it for me, in my opinion (emphasize, opinion), getting vaccinated is an ethical imperative as a human being. I am not saying you are an unethical person, but I would like to encourage you to give this reasoning some thought.

It also ignores other things that people can do in being effective against infection. I have seen studies that show vegans and vegetarians have 70% better COVID outcomes. So can I claim that everyone that eats meat is selfish bcos they present a higher risk to the non-vaxd? No. That road is a very complicated one to travel with many on and off ramps. But I don't see a rational difference between claiming non-vaxd are immoral whereas meat eaters are not.

I can imagine that diet is associated with COVID health outcomes, because diet is related to a bunch of risk factors and co-morbidities, and these are what we believe put people at risk. And diet is a modifiable variable. So I take your point is that the vaccinated overweight couch potato has no business giving the unvaccinated Ironman shit. This argument is not easily dismissed, I agree. That said, I could still come up with reasons why the Ironman should get a vaccine nonetheless.

I agree that's the target. I just don't think vaxs are necessary. The virus is not dangerous enough to healthy people, and I believe we can develop effective natural immunity and take other measures (such as diet) to prevent overloading health systems with infections.

Every bug will run its course, and eventually drop to some equilibrium, at least for a while. Marcus Aurelius got knocked out of the saddle by what we believe was smallpox, and it must have been some sucky times back then, because there were recurrences of the virus for more than 100 years. The medieval plague (not a virus, but still plenty bad) in Europe claimed about 100 million lives and lasted for five years. I think we all what this current pandemic to end. What we disagree about is how we quantify 'damage' (health, social, economic) and what the best strategy is to minimize that damage. But here is a simple thought experiment: assume you have two populations that are identical in demographics, genetic background, socioeconomics, everything. In one population everybody agrees to take a vaccine that is safe and shows some effectiveness, in the other population this is not the case. Can you describe a set of circumstances where the fully vaccinated would be worse off than the not fully vaccinated if the same policies were implemented?