Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[GDreams]

I'll take that bet.

Much more likely Germany did it. There are still many sympathisers of Russia there. While the pipelines existed there were always voices wanting to appease Russia to turn the gas back on. Fter the bombing that option disappeared as did the rationale for making deals with Russia.

[Riina]

The Americans did not bomb Nordstream 2, it was the Russians. Evidence will be found soon enough, I'm so confident I will happily place a wager on this, do you want to take me up on this? I will bet that it was not the Americans, will you take the bet?

I'll take that bet.

[Jmsuttr]

History can only be instructive to a point. Things won't be back to normal between Ukrainians and Russians simply because unlike Germany, Russia will never be occupied.

American occupation was the best thing that's ever happened to Germany and Japan. Bar none.

But because Russia can't be occupied (for more reasons than one), it's future is bleaker than bleak.

This is what's going to happen to Russia: catastrophic defeat, bloody civil war and the final dissolution of their empire. The Russian Empire will be gone for good leading to the birth of several new countries -- all corrupt, authoritarian and as economically inept as today's Russia.

Russians will never repent or regret. Instead, they'll portray themselves as a victim who lost because the whole world "conspired" to destroy them. They've already started pushing that drivel on TV.

Ukrainians will not forget and forgive, at least as quickly as the world forgave Germany in the 20th century. It'll take a hundred years if not more.

Russia will fully become a China's client state. It will turn into a giant North Korea blackmailing the world with their stockpiles of WMD.

Good night!

I wasn't trying to make wide-ranging historical comparisons, only the limited one of pointing out that the generation who fights the war has stronger emotions, and more raw wounds, than those who come after.

That being said, I don't disagree with the general gist of your post. Russia is facing a bleak future although there are a few different ways their path might go. One interesting variable will be how much longer Putin is around, and who takes over after he dies or is removed. That's something I think we'll see sooner rather than later.

[Xpartan]

For anyone from that WW-II generation, especially those who actually fought in the war, or lost someone close to them, their feelings toward Germans and Japanese were vastly different than those of the generation that came after.

Think, for example, about people who directly experienced the horrors of war, like the Brits who endured bombings during the Battle of Britain. For those people, the war remains a raw wound for a long time, possibly their entire life. There's no easy way to forgive what you believe to be atrocities or to forget the loved ones who were killed by brutal aggression.

This isn't some abstract and remote war for most Ukrainians. War crimes have been committed against them. Children have been ripped from families and sent to Russia.

I simply don't agree that it'll pass as quickly as you think, or that money from those who are detested will be welcomed. Money is going to flow into Ukraine in large Marshall Plan amounts. They'll have no lack of choices among various countries and it's my guess the best contracts will go to those countries and companies who are viewed as family and friends. Germany will probably be somewhere in the middle. Ukrainians will accept German money but probably lay on a thick layer of guilt at the same time.

As with most things in the future, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

History can only be instructive to a point. Things won't be back to normal between Ukrainians and Russians simply because unlike Germany, Russia will never be occupied.

American occupation was the best thing that's ever happened to Germany and Japan. Bar none.

But because Russia can't be occupied (for more reasons than one), it's future is bleaker than bleak.

This is what's going to happen to Russia: catastrophic defeat, bloody civil war and the final dissolution of their empire. The Russian Empire will be gone for good leading to the birth of several new countries -- all corrupt, authoritarian and as economically inept as today's Russia.

Russians will never repent or regret. Instead, they'll portray themselves as a victim who lost because the whole world "conspired" to destroy them. They've already started pushing that drivel on TV.

Ukrainians will not forget and forgive, at least as quickly as the world forgave Germany in the 20th century. It'll take a hundred years if not more.

Russia will fully become a China's client state. It will turn into a giant North Korea blackmailing the world with their stockpiles of WMD.

Good night!

[Gentleman Travel]

Prior to last Feb 24th....

Another reason is that a population in which so many have experienced the death of family, friends, and acquaintances, are likely to be much less tolerant of corruption during a time of war. Every act of corruption will be viewed, and rightly so, as a direct betrayal of the forces fighting to defend Ukraine and an even more heinous betrayal of those who have given their lives.

That's right on. At least I hope it is. Corruption is not just a blight where a few well-connected or brazen thieves benefit from ill-gotten gains to the general detriment of society overall, but now people must see it (corruption in the military, at least) as an existential threat. To Ukrainian society as a whole and perhaps to them or their loved ones personally?

Why do Russian conscripts have to buy their own clothing and gear? Because someone up the chain of command stole it and sold it elsewhere.

That has happened a in Ukraine in the past, and probably to a certain extent still, but now everybody realizes it is not harmless graft. People will suffer and die from it.

So hopefully, that will lead to a healthier attitude in society about the evil and harm of corruption and the importance of accountability. But we will see if it lasts.

[Jmsuttr]

"Pre-invasion Ukraine is a country that no longer exists. " This is very true.

I have no problem with drawing up lists of the Ukraine's allies, enemies and the non-committal. I just don't think the Ukraine war will have far lasting repercussions with the Ukrainians' perception of other countries around the world.

Germany's prestige will take a temporary hit within the Ukraine. That won't last long because Germany's economic might will eventually pull in the Ukraine. I also suspect the Germans will play a big part in the post-war reconstruction. German business will not want to miss out.

China is big enough and powerful enough to make small inroads in the future Ukraine. The Chinese are always limited by cultural differences and suspicions around the world.

Poland and the Baltics will likely develop a closer kinship with the Ukraine, but again it will lack economic importance.

In peacetime, money speaks volumes.

For anyone from that WW-II generation, especially those who actually fought in the war, or lost someone close to them, their feelings toward Germans and Japanese were vastly different than those of the generation that came after.

Think, for example, about people who directly experienced the horrors of war, like the Brits who endured bombings during the Battle of Britain. For those people, the war remains a raw wound for a long time, possibly their entire life. There's no easy way to forgive what you believe to be atrocities or to forget the loved ones who were killed by brutal aggression.

This isn't some abstract and remote war for most Ukrainians. War crimes have been committed against them. Children have been ripped from families and sent to Russia.

I simply don't agree that it'll pass as quickly as you think, or that money from those who are detested will be welcomed. Money is going to flow into Ukraine in large Marshall Plan amounts. They'll have no lack of choices among various countries and it's my guess the best contracts will go to those countries and companies who are viewed as family and friends. Germany will probably be somewhere in the middle. Ukrainians will accept German money but probably lay on a thick layer of guilt at the same time.

As with most things in the future, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Riina]

Both countries are as corrupt as Hell!

Russia is a mob country and Ukraine is the little crooked brother. Thing is when you have the same kind of crooks next to each other, the stronger always has to have influence over the weaker. Sadly, the Western gangsters have decided to meddle with this natural order. A recipe for disaster.

[WyattEarp]

Pre-invasion Ukraine is a country that no longer exists. Pre-invasion attitudes will, for many (if not most) be completely transformed along the lines of "who helped us, who was against us, and who stood silent."

When the war is over, people from Poland, the Baltics, and Nordics will be treated like close family. They pitched in early and gave whole-heartedly. Next will come countries like the US and UK, who helped, but could have done more and done it sooner. Toward the lower end of acceptability will be those countries, like Germany, who helped grudgingly after much internal and external pressure.

Held at arms length (or worse) will be countries who stood silently on the sidelines, or leaned against Ukraine without crossing too many lines. These might include Hungary, Serbia, and Croatia.

Finally will be those countries that Ukrainians will view as co-belligerents and-or Russia enablers. China, India, and Iran will be on that list. Given what Ukrainians have experienced, it's hard to see how they will forget or forgive.

FWIW, any pre-invasion experiences in Ukraine should probably be flushed down the toilet. The world has forever changed.

"Pre-invasion Ukraine is a country that no longer exists. " This is very true.

I have no problem with drawing up lists of the Ukraine's allies, enemies and the non-committal. I just don't think the Ukraine war will have far lasting repercussions with the Ukrainians' perception of other countries around the world.

Germany's prestige will take a temporary hit within the Ukraine. That won't last long because Germany's economic might will eventually pull in the Ukraine. I also suspect the Germans will play a big part in the post-war reconstruction. German business will not want to miss out.

China is big enough and powerful enough to make small inroads in the future Ukraine. The Chinese are always limited by cultural differences and suspicions around the world.

Poland and the Baltics will likely develop a closer kinship with the Ukraine, but again it will lack economic importance.

In peacetime, money speaks volumes.

[Jmsuttr]

It's said that life in Ukraine under former President, a candy business magnate, was not sweet, and life under the present snorting clown is not funny.

You can take a quiz on how many articles of the recent Ukrainian Constitution are bluntly violated: https://www.constituteproject.org/co...e_2019?lang=en.

Interesting history fact: an inauguration of Hetman of Ukrain Pavlo Skoropadskyi in 1918 was held in a circus Hippo Palace (the building has been since demolished). It's all started as a joke.

Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. FDR had internment camps. The real barometer will be what happens after the war is over. Zelensky won't be president forever and the fact that Ukraine sees its future within the EU means they'll need to keep moving forward toward European standards and norms.

[Jmsuttr]

Last time I was in Kiev, I had a disturbing experience. Jumping around in a club with college cuties, I thought I was in paradise. The hotties looked so lovely and innocent. Then the tide went out and the ugly showed itself. A group of Indian girls walked into the club and every single Ukrainian girl in that place showed their complete disgust right in the face of these poor girls just looking to go out and have some fun. It's in the detail what a society is about. Ukraine has always been an illusion to silly foreigners.

Pre-invasion Ukraine is a country that no longer exists. Pre-invasion attitudes will, for many (if not most) be completely transformed along the lines of "who helped us, who was against us, and who stood silent."

When the war is over, people from Poland, the Baltics, and Nordics will be treated like close family. They pitched in early and gave whole-heartedly. Next will come countries like the US and UK, who helped, but could have done more and done it sooner. Toward the lower end of acceptability will be those countries, like Germany, who helped grudgingly after much internal and external pressure.

Held at arms length (or worse) will be countries who stood silently on the sidelines, or leaned against Ukraine without crossing too many lines. These might include Hungary, Serbia, and Croatia.

Finally will be those countries that Ukrainians will view as co-belligerents and-or Russia enablers. China, India, and Iran will be on that list. Given what Ukrainians have experienced, it's hard to see how they will forget or forgive.

FWIW, any pre-invasion experiences in Ukraine should probably be flushed down the toilet. The world has forever changed.

[Questner]

It's said that life in Ukraine under former President, a candy business magnate, was not sweet, and life under the present snorting clown is not funny.

You can take a quiz on how many articles of the recent Ukrainian Constitution are bluntly violated: https://www.constituteproject.org/co...e_2019?lang=en.

Interesting history fact: an inauguration of Hetman of Ukrain Pavlo Skoropadskyi in 1918 was held in a circus Hippo Palace (the building has been since demolished). It's all started as a joke.

[Golfinho]

Last time I was in Kiev, I had a disturbing experience. Jumping around in a club with college cuties, I thought I was in paradise. The hotties looked so lovely and innocent. Then the tide went out and the ugly showed itself. A group of Indian girls walked into the club and every single Ukrainian girl in that place showed their complete disgust right in the face of these poor girls just looking to go out and have some fun. It's in the detail what a society is about. Ukraine has always been an illusion to silly foreigners.

If those Indian girls had had the good taste to get botox lip implants surely they'd have been welcomed into the EU wannabe sisterhood.

[Riina]

Last time I was in Kiev, I had a disturbing experience. Jumping around in a club with college cuties, I thought I was in paradise. The hotties looked so lovely and innocent. Then the tide went out and the ugly showed itself. A group of Indian girls walked into the club and every single Ukrainian girl in that place showed their complete disgust right in the face of these poor girls just looking to go out and have some fun. It's in the detail what a society is about. Ukraine has always been an illusion to silly foreigners.

[Paulie97]

Ten years ago it was "Ukraine for Ukrainians". Now it's "Stand with Ukraine". No thanks, I saw how you treated folks exactly in your situation.

Lets just grow a pair and admit it. Russia is changing borders with aggressions, murdering children and cilvilians. They tried to steal the entire country but failed because of Ukrainian strength and NATO. You come here, cowardly, in a hooker forum defending Russia. Ok, the Russian bodies will keep piling up, and it's because of the murderous actions you wish to defend. That's really all that needs to be said.

[Questner]

Ursula in Kiev: the first case in history of medicine where a drug addict was attended by a gynecologist.