Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[Golfinho]

Then, and only then, will a
P.S. What a clown-car farce it is to criticize Ukraine for things Russia has been doing for decades, and on a much larger scale. Why don't you ask the young Russian girl who is being put into foster care, and her father arrested, because she drew an anti-war picture in school? Oh, yeah! Russia's a real model of openness and tolerance, right?

You'd think people who travel, that is sometimes find themselves in other places, would have the simple sense to avoid cultural comparisons from their homeland perspective. But then again, if their only comparative mentality is the price of hookers, you could hardly blame them.

P.S. Would you let a drag queen babysit your children? Or your grandchildren?

[Questner]

Bandera screaming in hell would have preferred his arse burned on a pan to seeing jester-acting-a-jew selling Ukraine to his Polish master (adapted from titles below):

[VinDici]

A pathway to democracy: Banned: languages, opposition parties, opposition mass media, exit out of the country, church. All checked.

A perfect description of Muscovy. Thanks for pointing this out. Why don't you show us your Freedom of Speech? We will continue laughing at you, we can't pity you any more.

[Jmsuttr]

A pathway to democracy: Banned: languages, opposition parties, opposition mass media, exit out of the country, church. All checked.

Then, and only then, will all the necessary boxes be checked. Russia is so thoroughly perverse that even the Russian Orthodox Church is infested with diseased FSB elements. Cutting out the cancer is the only solution. Plenty of Eastern Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox (non-Moscow Patriarchate) churches to serve the needs of the people.

Russian soldiers the fuck out of Ukraine. Russian cancerous influences the fuck out of Ukraine. THEN some semblance of normalcy can start to return.

P.S. What a clown-car farce it is to criticize Ukraine for things Russia has been doing for decades, and on a much larger scale. Why don't you ask the young Russian girl who is being put into foster care, and her father arrested, because she drew an anti-war picture in school? Oh, yeah! Russia's a real model of openness and tolerance, right?

[Paulie97]

Biden said to Putin he would not rule out Ukraine joining NATO, and Russia invaded shortly after that.

Not only Biden but NATO Secretary Stoltenberg as well.

"Ukraine is a sovereign, independent nation. And every sovereign, independent nation has the right to choose its own path, including what kind of security arrangements it wants to be part of. So it is up to Ukraine and 30 allies to decide when Ukraine is ready to join the alliance," Stoltenberg said during a NATO meeting in Riga, Latvia.
Russia has no veto, no right to interfere in that process," Stoltenberg said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/bide...-it-means.html

Damn straight. Russia wants veto power in the matter but has NONE. NATO isn't NATO anymore if they assent to such absurdity. Putin's demand was ridiculous and he knew it would be rejected, thus giving himself the green light to do what he wanted to do, and to continue reversing post Cold War border and security agreements that he's been stewing about for 30 years.

Elvis I don't think you are a bad guy, but need to get out of your far right vaccum and expand your reading list. No one is 100% objective as the human condition prevents it. We all bring baggage to the table, but truth is better dechiphered by reading a range of sources, right, left and center, while extremes on the spectrum are usually only useful for comedy. Like the stolen election hogwash, that Carlson, Hannity, and Ingraham all knew was nonsense, as proven by their text messages.

[Questner]

A pathway to democracy: Banned: languages, opposition parties, opposition mass media, exit out of the country, church. All checked.

[Jmsuttr]

https://mickryan.substack.com/p/the-...ian-offensives

No armchair in sight. It's most definitely his own opinion, nothing more, but he has expertise and experience that regular schmucks (myself included) will never have. He's pro-Ukraine, but that doesn't invalidate the facts he presents and observations he makes. People are free to disagree or debate the issues, but they should do so on the basis of countervailing facts and competing arguments.

[Jmsuttr]

Quote of the day, 'To paraphrase former Secretary of Defense Bob Gates, any American president or politician who is willing to risk a high-end conventional land war with Russia should have his head examined, or at a minimum, deserves serious psychiatric care. The same must be said of anyone in Washington who wants to engage in nuclear brinksmanship with Moscow. '.

With all due respect to SecDef Gates, and others, that quote was appropriate for the Cold War era in which the USSR had its de facto empire and wasn't actively trying to expand. This current era features a megalomaniac in the Kremlin who sees himself as a modern day Peter the Great, with a mandate and destiny to reclaim "historic" Russian lands.

Putin is essentially saying "I want to possess Ukraine. Let me have it or I will rattle my nuclear (WW-III, OMG!) saber". The problem with giving in to such blackmail is that the blackmailer has no incentive to stop. In fact, showing weakness actually incentivizes the blackmailer to keep going. So the next demand could be Poland, or Latvia, or another (fill in the blank) country.

No one in the West is playing the nuclear brinkmanship game. It's all coming from Little Vlad. Which means only he can unilaterally stop it. The West has a choice between displaying weakness or strength. From Putin's past behavior, we know he despises weakness and respects only strength. Not really a difficult call to make, IMO.

Also, the elephant in the room is Russia's newly acquired master, China. From the CCP's various statements, it's rather clear that any nuclear transgression would incur China's wrath. Russia would, at a minimum, likely forfeit China's support. The last thing China wants is nuclear instability and proliferation, as Japan and Korea would almost certainly move to develop their own nukes.

To use your own imagery, allowing Putin to dictate the terms of the nuclear debate would be like letting the inmates run the asylum. Putin could certainly benefit from some ("Here, Vlad, bite down on this") electro-shock therapy.

[Jmsuttr]

Kudos to you. My post was addressed to ISG's prolific arm chair generals. As for the President, this horrible disaster reflects visibly upon him also. What choice in realpolitik has he got? No one ever wanted even a scratch on a hand.

He played the invasion card, no one forced him. And, for those who simply observe events as they unfold on the battlefield, the term "armchair general" is incorrect. It certainly applies to some ISG members, but not all.

[Jmsuttr]

Good post. JM's whole concept that we did not provoke Russia is crazy. There are so many videos that show otherwise but the two best ones I have seen are here:

https://www.cc.com/video/y1wxc3/the-...sis-in-ukraine

https://rumble.com/v1m0df8-the-colbe...-02242014.html

The guest on the Colbert report, back when Steven Colbert was funny, even said we wanted to prevent Russia from attacking Ukraine. So fear of provoking a Russian invasion was present back in 2014 and the soothing words to keep back an invasion apparently were no longer spoken. Biden said to Putin he would not rule out Ukraine joining NATO, and Russia invaded shortly after that.

Matt Taibbi, one of the few journalists I trust, has said that there are now two parties in Washington. They are not Republican and Democrat but pro-war and anti-war. Trump and Bernie Sanders are anti-war and HRC and Biden are in the pro-war party. If you are in the antiwar party, you can expect what Trump got today and what Bernie Sanders got in the primaries.

The setup is the same. Build up a guy or guys to be the epitome of evil. And then give the military industrial complex trillions to knock him out of power and watch as things get even worse in said country. We have seen this movie before with Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi, and the Taliban. And anyone who objects to that money being spent on this nonsense abroad is told, "What is a matter with you, you love Hussein, Gaddafi, the Taliban, or Putin?

And you are right. The Ukrainian people will suffer the same fate as those in Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan while the military industrial complex lines its pockets. If you oppose them, well, you end up dead like JFK or charged like Trump. Biden was building up for war on literally the first day he was in office.

If you define provoking Russia as "doing stuff that Putin doesn't like," then there's a whole shitload of "provocation" out there. If you define it that way then there's literally no limit to the things Russia can claim as justification for aggression. Or, maybe it's more correct to say that such justifications are only limited by Russian imagination and propaganda.

Russians have already conjured up enough "provocation" to justify their military aggressions against Georgia and Moldova. And anyone paying attention will have noticed they have ready-made "provocations" against Poland and the Baltics that can be taken off the shelf and used when needed.

Any clown can say that they "feel threatened," but the proof of whether a true threat exists depends on an assessment of objective facts.

Objective Fact #1: Ukraine has never posed a military threat to Russia. Had Ukraine ever attempted military action against Russia they would have received zero support from the West. They also would have been trounced by Russia since, as the current war demonstrates, it's much harder to attack than it is to defend.

Objective Fact #2: NATO posed zero offensive threat to Russia. Not only is NATO defensive in nature and by charter, but it would take unanimous consent of all 30 (now 31) members before an offensive action (against anyone) would be approved. Before the Feb 24th invasion, because several NATO members were friendly to Russia (Hungary, Germany, France, etc.), not only would Russia have had advance notice of any significant developments but any single one of those (formerly) friendly nations would have had veto power they could exercise.

Objective Fact #3: The myth of so-called promises re NATO expansion has been debunked by no less than Mikhail Gorbachev, himself. He stated in an interview that discussions on that topic centered on German reunification and the territory of former East Germany. And, not only was there no formal agreement on that subject, during Yeltsin's tenure Russia was even contemplating joining NATO. So the about-face and demonization of NATO is a feature of Putinism and his need to find excuses for his own aggression abroad and repression at home.

Oh yeah, and your entire post ignores the agency of Little Vlad, himself. Nobody forced him to order the invasion. Prior to Feb 24th he had all kinds of diplomatic and geopolitical cards he could have played, all from a position of strength. Now he's flushed every one of those options down the toilet and is no longer the master of his own (and Russia's) fate.

And you've also pointedly denied agency to the Ukrainian people, who simply want to keep their land, prevent their women from being raped and their children from being kidnapped, and to stay alive.

But sure, it's all the USA's fault, isn't it?

P.S. As to the future, unlike some I don't pretend to have a crystal ball. But I'd simply note how many "expert" predictions have already been proven wrong. And how many surprising turns of events (rapid NATO accession for Finland, EU decoupling from Russian energy supplies, etc.), have come to pass. So, if I had to place a bet, it'd be on a Ukrainian future as part of the EU (for sure) and NATO (likely). And I'd lay long odds on Russia becoming a vassal state of China, just a bit higher than North Korea in the pecking order.

[Beijing4987]

I'm Gort. I can destroy your planet.

[VinDici]

Quote of the day, 'To paraphrase former Secretary of Defense Bob Gates, any American president or politician who is willing to risk a high-end conventional land war with Russia should have his head examined, or at a minimum, deserves serious psychiatric care. The same must be said of anyone in Washington who wants to engage in nuclear brinksmanship with Moscow. '.

Typical idiot RuZZian living in the past. Let me explain it for you so that even an Orc can understand. When Bob Gates said that, that was before the RuZZian army was revealed to be a Paper Tiger. Now that everyone knows that Muscovy has a Potemkin army, the whole world is laughing, and people are not afraid. Look at the CSTO, members are getting ready to arrest Putin. Good job!

[Paulie97]

Whatever internal issues were happening WITHIN Ukraine, Russia had NO fucking right to cross the borders. Russia had plenty of infuence in post-Soviet Ukraine, both directly and through proxies. It's clear from the way things unfolded that Ukraine wants to have a future in Europe and NOT in Russia's sphere of influence. If that wasn't the case, then Russia would have been welcomed in the way that Putin delusionally thought would happen. The fact that Ukraine has resisted tooth-and-nail, INCLUDING in predominantly Russian-speaking areas, is proof positive that Ukrainians want Putin and his Orcs to fuck off to hell.

And that precisely was the "provocation" to Little Vlad, freedom loving Ukrainians that wanted to go another way, just as many former Soviet bloc countries did. So rather than accept that the Russians commit mass murder, rape, and steal children. We see the same committed on the micro scale all the time by jilted lovers with violent responses to rejection. And Little Vlad's demands to NATO were all a ruse to prop up a justification as he already knew he'd be declined. NATO membership is open to all who qualify according to the charter. Any committment to exclude Ukraine perpetually is out of bounds and certainly beyond the authority of the US. Thus Americans who blame the US are siding with Russia and thus are traitors to their own country.

But fuck, I covered all this a year ago and at least twenty times since then so I'm taking a very long vacation from the discussion. And fact is I'm a South America guy so likely will never make it to Kyiv, as far as the other thread goes. Though I'll never say never. Wink.

[Paulie97]

Here's just one of many articles debunking the tired "CIA coup" cliche:

https://bitterwinter.org/myth-of-the...kraine-2-2014/

Article highlights:

1. Little Victor already had a sketchy political history in Ukraine.

"Viktor Yanukovych, the politician whose presidential election was annulled by the Supreme Court for electoral fraud in 2004".

2. Little Victor won the 2010 election with less than 50% of the vote. And he ran on an electoral platform that was specifically in favor of integration with the EU.

"Yanukovych ran again for President in 2010, with a platform that included Ukraine's request to become part of the European Union. He won the election by obtaining in the second turn 48.95% of the vote against 45.47% of his opponent Julia Tymosenko".

3. After his election, not only did Little Victor arrest his political rival (Tymosenko) but he completely reneged on his commitment to EU integration.

"On November 21,2013, Yanukovych abruptly announced that he would not sign the Association Agreement with the European Union that had been agreed upon, and would rather enter into a treaty of economic cooperation with Russia. This was a complete about-face with respect to the program on which he had been elected".

4. Little Victor cemented his reputation as Putin's lackey when he adopted the Russian whitewashed view of the Stalin-orchestrated Holodomor famine.

"When Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper during his visit to Ukraine went to pay his respects to the victims of the Holodomor, many of whom were ancestors of Canadian Ukrainians, at the Kiev memorial of the genocide, Yanukovych declined to participate and told Harper there had been no genocide. As some scholars have noted, many non-Ukrainians failed to understand the enormity of Yanukovych's claim. It was as if a president of Israel would publicly deny the Holocaust".

5. If 1-4 (above) are thought of as the kindling, this next highlight is what actually lit the fire.

"What started in Maidan Square as a small and peaceful protest mostly by university students escalated to violence and to a revolution, which was called Euromaidan or the Revolution of Dignity. What changed the course of the events was the brutal repression of the students by police on November 29. Dozens of students were badly beaten. Many who went to Maidan Square after November 29 would probably not have protested for the European Union, but took to the streets to denounce police brutality, which they regarded as evidence of the authoritarian drift of the Yanukovych government".

One final point made in the article is that the estimates of protesters in Kyiv range from 400,000 to 800,000. So, in order to believe in the "CIA" myth, you have to deny each of those protesters their individual agency. Each one of those people made an individual decision to actively join the protests. If you think the CIA can mind-control hundreds of thousands of people, then I have a bridge across the Kerch Strait to sell you.

Or, one can take the "Occam's Razor" approach and consider the plain facts of the matter. Little Victor did not have a large base of support and, after reneging on a key campaign promise and adopting a Holodomor-denial position, flushed the remainder of his support down the toilet. Then, thinking he could stay in power using brutal and repressive tactics, he lit the match that sent him crashing, burning, and fleeing to Russia.

Solid and well summarized by yourself. Only problem is that Tucker Carlson fans also pay for pussy. In fact good family values conservatives likely buy ass disproportionately, thus we are compelled to go in circles here. Wink.

[Questner]

Quote of the day, 'To paraphrase former Secretary of Defense Bob Gates, any American president or politician who is willing to risk a high-end conventional land war with Russia should have his head examined, or at a minimum, deserves serious psychiatric care. The same must be said of anyone in Washington who wants to engage in nuclear brinksmanship with Moscow. '.