Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[Jmsuttr]

NATO office boy Jens Stoltenberg, at a meeting with Finland's office boys, has said NATO will trade Ukrainian territory for peace.

Primary sources are always preferable, when available. It took all of 5 minutes to find the actual transcripts of NATO speeches and press conferences.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions.htm

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/o...ectedLocale=en

"So first to the question of whether peace is possible. Yes, peace is possible. The question is what kind of peace? Because if Ukraine withdraw its forces and stop fighting, then Ukraine will cease to exist as an independent, sovereign nation in Europe. If President Putin stops fighting, then we'll have peace. So the dilemma is, of course, that peace is always possible. Surrender can provide peace. But as we have seen, the Ukrainians, they don't accept peace at any price. They are actually willing to pay a very high price for their independence. And again, Finland is a country that really knows the price for peace and also the price for independence and being a sovereign nation. And it's not for me to judge how high price the Ukrainians should be willing to pay. I mean, we pay a price because we provide support, we see the economic effects of the economic sanctions. But there is no doubt, as you said Sauli, that the highest price is paid by Ukrainians every day. And therefore it's for them to judge, not for me, what is the price they are willing to pay, for peace and for independence? So, that's, in a way, the moral dilemma. Peace is possible, but the question, how much are you willing to forsake to pay for getting that peace? The absolute best way to achieve peace in Ukraine is for President Putin to end this senseless war. We have to remember, every morning, every day, every hour during the day, there is one man, one nation that is responsible for that and that is President Putin. Then we have difficult dilemmas, difficult choices, but it is President Putin's brutal invasion of Ukraine that has created those dilemmas. And they can be solved by. . . From his side by ending the war. Then, one more thing on this, is that as President Zelensky has stated many times, this war will end at the negotiating table. The question is what kind of position will the Ukrainians have when they negotiate a solution? Our responsibility is to make that position as strong as possible. We know that there is a very close link between what you can achieve at the negotiating table and your position at the battlefield. So our military support to them is a way to strengthen their hand at the negotiating table when they, hopefully soon, will sit there and negotiate the peace agreement. So that was 'peace is possible' that's not the question anyway, the question is: what price are you willing to pay for peace? How much territory? How much independence? How much sovereignty? How much freedom? How much democracy are you willing to sacrifice for peace? And that's a very difficult moral dilemma. And it's for those who are paying the highest price to make that judgement. Our responsibility is to support them. Then, on escalation, I think it's extremely important that we remember there is a danger of escalation. Also, as you said this morning, a horizontal escalation, we always see a kind of vertical escalation more fighting, more suffering, heavier weapons in Ukraine but escalation beyond Ukraine. And NATO has been very aware of this risk since the beginning, actually before the invasion, because we have to remember that when the invasion came, we were very prepared. In one way, we have been prepared for this eventuality since 2014, with the biggest reinforcement of our collective defence since the Cold War, with the battlegroups in the eastern part of the Alliance, more defence spending, higher readiness, new command structure and all that. And then it was, actually, when we met, I remember we met, we discussed the possibility of an invasion of Ukraine. We had very precise intelligence on the nation. Russia absolutely denied. We had the meeting in the NATO-Russia Council in January, I think it was, where that was the last serious effort from our side to find a negotiated way out of this. Russia said, 'We have no plans whatsoever to invade. ' They actually sent out pictures, days beforehand, showing some battle tanks moving over this bridge (the strait between Azov and the Black Sea, saying that they were actually withdrawing their forces. Then they invaded. And then, that morning, we activated NATO's defence plans and deployed significant additional troops, because we were prepared, and now we have 40,000 NATO troops in the eastern part of the Alliance. Why did we do that? To prevent escalation. Because we have this increased presence to send an absolutely clear message to President Putin, to remove any room for miscalculation, misunderstanding in Moscow about our readiness to protect and defend every Ally. And as long as that's clear, there will be no attack. So our deterrence is to prevent escalation. I'm sad that we are in such a situation, because it would have been better for all of us if we could spend all that money we now are spending on deterrence, more weapons, more artillery, more missiles, more troops, more ships, more planes on education, health, infrastructure. But in a more dangerous world, we have to invest in security and that's exactly what we'll do to prevent escalation. So, I know I'm being a bit long, but we are. . . NATO is actually doing two things to prevent escalation. One is deterrence. As we do and we'll also make new decisions at the Madrid summit to strengthen further our posture: investing more, more troops, more readiness. But the only thing we do, is that we don't move into Ukraine. And that's not an easy decision. In my conversations, my talks, with the Ukrainian leaders, including President Zelensky, it's not easy to tell them that we are not going to impose a no-fly zone. They asked for a no-fly zone, we said no. They wanted us to and some Allies as well there has been some proposals that we should move with creating a humanitarian corridor. We're not doing that. There have also been discussions about NATO reinforcing a naval corridor to get food out. To not do that, it's not easy, because it has a cost for the Ukrainians. But we. . . But the reason why we don't move in with NATO troops in Ukraine is to prevent escalation. So we are always, since the beginning of this war, been very mindful about the need, the moral obligation, to support a country fighting for their freedom, for democracy, for their independence. But at the same time, preventing escalation by not being directly involved in the conflict".

People can read and decide for themselves as to whether or not Stoltenberg is throwing Ukraine to the wolves. The absolute WORST source in the world, I would argue, is a certified LilliPutin dick-licking troll.

[PedroMorales]

Yours was a good and well thought out post. The replies you elicited come from American and Israeli Nazis who destroyed Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Yugoslavia etc so keep that in mind. It is hard to know which of them are the more despicable. Your girl friend is, of course, like most others. She wants to get by. Not so Israeli and American psychopaths. Abominable creatures.

More war crimes yesterday by Zelensky's Nazis shelling residential areas. Russian batteries seem to have the bead on them now so expect more tears from the Nazis and racists soon.

I'm with my Ukrainian girlfriend now in Chisinau.

[Paulie97]

To the second part: I don't dispute the attention-seeking characterization of trolls. Rather I dispute the assumption that all of them will simply go away if ignored. It's my assertion that there's a subset of trolls, most notably the hate-filled variety, who will never go away. And that's because hate needs no outside driver or stimulus. Hate is self-perpetuating because it's motivated by twisted internal factors, and it sees the promulgation of hate as its own reward. It's like a horribly troubled child who tortures cats or pulls the wings off flies. Anyone who says it's just a phase, and will go away if ignored, is just wrong.

There's a reward for the sadist in your example as they get to witness the distress of the animal or insect. Your typical online troll wants feedback. If no one is responding in any way there's none, plus they don't know if anyone is even reading their posts. They'll go someplace else where the fish are biting which isn't hard to do online. In any case your analogy is false, and by default, so is your conclusion. Wink.

https://fallacyinlogic.com/false-ana...-and-examples/

P.S. Regarding humiliation, and based on standard definitions it's tough to argue that you are humiliating a person if they are experiencing no such feelings. From Webster's:

"to reduce (someone) to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes: to make (someone) ashamed or embarrassed: Mortify".

Take DramaFree11 as an example. He's been here and on a thread in another forum about four months equating Ukraine and Russia in the matter of evil. He calls on the West to stop helping the former while doing the Chicken Little, claiming world economies will implode and endless lives will be destroyed if we continue the course. He was around two years saying the same about Covid BTW in the matter of mitigation efforts and with no fulfillment. But where's the new material? Where the humiliation? I just summed up his whole argument in less than one minute, two sentences. There's been no change. Rebuttals are ignored. It's just a couple of talking points one could gather halfway watching Tucker Carlson one night. No "proof" is offered beyond anecdotes and speculations. No links. So what does he get for his two to three minutes of typing each day? A three paragraph, well thought out essay from you in return. That's a good return on his investment, and all with the same two sentence argument, and for about four months. LOL But I'm sure not going in circles with someone like that. It comes down to how you want to spend your time I suppose.

[Paulie97]

Both sides are terrible, Ukraine is one of the most corrupt governments ever or an Evil Dictator, pick your poison.

See what I mean folks? Fallacy of the ad nauseam, or proof by repetition. You've equated Ukraine with Russia dozens of times, and been refuted dozens of times. However you ignore the refutations and keep repeating the same lie over and over, and will continue to do the same until hell freezes over. But here it is again, Ukraine has a Freedom House score, which considers corruption and other measures, of 61, about on par with Tucker Carlson's favorite country Hungary. This isn't great but isn't bad for the region and is worlds ahead of Russia at 15 and their buddies Belarus at 5. It's also ahead of a number of Euro countries. So, in the end you are dishonest and refuse to engage other than to repeat the same tired and long refuted sentiments over and over. The first time can be ascribed to ignorance. Persisting after corrections you make yourself a habitual liar which isn't surprising.

https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam

[DramaFree11]

Putin has blatantly boasted that Russia's ambitions extend far beyond Ukraine. That is the reason that Poland, and the Baltics, are responding the way they are. They rightly see this war as merely the first salvo in a longer-term existential battle.

People who view this conflict as though it only concerns Ukraine are not only ignoring the facts, but also LilliPutin's own words and threats.

Solution: Defeat Russia!

There, fixed it for you (again). BTW, every time you repeat the lie that you don't care who wins, I'll continue to point out your anti-Ukraine posting history AND the fact that every one of your "solutions" would only disadvantage the Ukrainian side. So, not only are you a liar, but you're also a coward because you try to hide behind a facade of even-handedness that is blatantly false and fraudulent. If you had even a scintilla of courage, you'd be up front about your (purely) anti-Ukraine position.

As for me, the reason I'm picking Ukraine, even with their record of corruption, is that there exists at least the possibility of change. Specifically, if they want to join the EU (and they do), they'll need to pass laws and implement significant reforms to meet anti-corruption benchmarks and standards. And EU candidate status can last for years, which would give such reforms a chance to take hold. Even if you don't like Zelensky, he's not going to be president forever. So, on one hand, Ukraine (even with a poor record in the past) at least has the HOPE and possibility for change. Additionally, nothing motivates change more than a traumatic event, like a near-death experience. Ukraine is currently undergoing such an experience on a national scale. Besides, the other choice is unacceptable, as anyone who picks Russia is choosing to side with a genocidal, psychopathic, megalomaniac.

What does the future hold? I have no crystal ball and, as I've stated often, making predictions is a fool's errand. But, based on history, and the way recent and current events have played out, Russia is by far the bigger problem to Europe and the world. And their naked aggression, and commission of war crimes against civilians, demands both resistance and defeat.

P.S. If Ukraine achieves EU candidate status, I have no doubt there will be a number of audits and examinations. Will there ever be such audits in Russia? Nope, not ever.

You are total denial. Ukraine should not be allowed to join anything until they clean up there act. Produce Oil and you defeat Russia, very easy, but you guys do not want to do that.

Secondly, if Russia can not defeat Ukraine and a few Special Force Teams, they obviously can not fight there way out of a wet paper bag. They are not a threat, unlike are ridiculous Media claims and even worse the CIA. There military is terrible.

I do not care who wins, but somebody please win. When The war stops the killing stops. I have bad news for you, Russia is now winning, and the higher gas prices go the more they win. Again I have zero compassion for the Ukraine government. I do care about the incident lives being lost. You guys are playing right into Putin hand. Sorry, but that is what the Ukraine government does is lose, steal and lie. They were winning, but as usual they got greedy and are too stupid to realize it.

[Golfinho]

This is Ukraine is a sovereign nation and its territorial integrity was guaranteed by international treaty (and the Russian Federation was a signator) in 1994.

R2P Serbia. But that was different.

[Golfinho]

Pure Russian propaganda.

Of course, it is. Anything that doesn't fit the narrative you've ingested is Pure Propaganda. Baaa, baaaa.

[Jmsuttr]

As, I said I can care less how wins, find a solution.

Both sides are terrible, Ukraine is one of the most corrupt governments ever or an Evil Dictator, pick your poison. Both sides are extremely corrupt, and we should not let them drag the worlds economy down, with there stupid decisions.

Let's do an Audit of Ukraine President and Parliament, I doubt you guys will like what we find.

Putin has blatantly boasted that Russia's ambitions extend far beyond Ukraine. That is the reason that Poland, and the Baltics, are responding the way they are. They rightly see this war as merely the first salvo in a longer-term existential battle.

People who view this conflict as though it only concerns Ukraine are not only ignoring the facts, but also LilliPutin's own words and threats.

Solution: Defeat Russia!

There, fixed it for you (again). BTW, every time you repeat the lie that you don't care who wins, I'll continue to point out your anti-Ukraine posting history AND the fact that every one of your "solutions" would only disadvantage the Ukrainian side. So, not only are you a liar, but you're also a coward because you try to hide behind a facade of even-handedness that is blatantly false and fraudulent. If you had even a scintilla of courage, you'd be up front about your (purely) anti-Ukraine position.

As for me, the reason I'm picking Ukraine, even with their record of corruption, is that there exists at least the possibility of change. Specifically, if they want to join the EU (and they do), they'll need to pass laws and implement significant reforms to meet anti-corruption benchmarks and standards. And EU candidate status can last for years, which would give such reforms a chance to take hold. Even if you don't like Zelensky, he's not going to be president forever. So, on one hand, Ukraine (even with a poor record in the past) at least has the HOPE and possibility for change. Additionally, nothing motivates change more than a traumatic event, like a near-death experience. Ukraine is currently undergoing such an experience on a national scale. Besides, the other choice is unacceptable, as anyone who picks Russia is choosing to side with a genocidal, psychopathic, megalomaniac.

What does the future hold? I have no crystal ball and, as I've stated often, making predictions is a fool's errand. But, based on history, and the way recent and current events have played out, Russia is by far the bigger problem to Europe and the world. And their naked aggression, and commission of war crimes against civilians, demands both resistance and defeat.

P.S. If Ukraine achieves EU candidate status, I have no doubt there will be a number of audits and examinations. Will there ever be such audits in Russia? Nope, not ever.

[WyattEarp]

I'm with my UKRAINIAN GIRLFRIEND now in Chisinau..............

I don't try to put ideas in her head. Just let her talk. She is ethnic Ukrainian, but not nationalist. MAINLY WORRIED ABOUT HER APARTMENT IN KYIV she bought last year.............

Meanwhile, Russia reconfigures to be immune to sanctions, thus free to cause all sorts of mischief for USA. Predictably bad result for USA, but that's what happens when silly young idealists in the State Department are let to run loose.

Prior to 2014, Ukraine was merely being pressured to accept subordination to Russia, same as Canada and Mexico are subordinate to USA.

I highlighted a few words that I think might give us a bit more on your girlfriend's perspective. Nothing personal, but she might have more of a mercenary type personality. You travel the third world and find people can have no deep affinity for their own country. I'm not talking about cultural aspects like food and music. The young women have options with foreign men which further pulls them away. I don't know your girlfriend and I certainly don't know her motivations and future plans. However, I don't think my comments are a stretch.

While I don't think anyone should be cheering on this conflict, I am in the camp that Putin's Russia would keep fucking with its neighbors and it would never end. The danger is Putin stupidly underestimates Europe and his military crosses a NATO border. The Merkel appeasement is hopefully over. So there is much more here at stake than a fledgling democracy with corruption. (One by the way should look at the early histories of the democracies in Taiwan and South Korea to understand that not all democracies jump into a Jeffersonian state on day one.).

I believe this came up before. You oversell your opinion projected through your girlfriend. You are seriously comparing Ukraine's relationship to Russia with Canada and Mexico's relationship to the USA Not to mention Canada is a robust democracy, I know some Canadians that would laugh at your comparison. They are not trying to emulate or respond to the United States politically. I'm not sure the Mexicans are either.

If you said Canada and Mexico are economically dependent on the United States, of course they are having long borders with the largest economy in the world. The Ukrainians have essentially voted for closer ties with the European Union. Russia is an economic shit show overly dependent on the price of oil and gas. Why would the Ukrainians hitch their economic future to Russia?

As far as your silly mafia reference, what would one do if they had a known child molester living next door? Would you let your kids play outside unattended? Or would you try to have him arrested for approaching your children?

[John Clayton]

...After the thug-led street putsch of 2014, as punishment for their treasonous attempt to switch from team Russia to team USA, Ukraine was deprived of Crimea and put under pressure to give Donbas some autonomy and renounce treason towards team Russia...

This is Russian can't. What is the treason? Treason the crime of betraying one's country (you know, like Benedict Arnold or Trump). Ukraine is a sovereign nation and its territorial integrity was guaranteed by international treaty (and the Russian Federation was a signator) in 1994.

Despite all their disinformation about nazis, oppression of ethnic Russians, whatever, Putin has recently flatly admitted that is war is about territorial aggrandizement and restoring the historic Russian empire.

[John Clayton]

Slava Ukrainia.

https://t.me/NewResistance/9723

Pure Russian propaganda.

[Golfinho]

Let's not forget how the war really started back in 2014. Of course no one is talking about these things. And we all know who is behind the coup.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fXslPCrN_9E

Slava Ukrainia.

https://t.me/NewResistance/9723

[Kozerog]

I'm with my Ukrainian girlfriend now in Chisinau. She arrived a week ago and everything is going well between us. For a short while in March / April, she was back in the small town where she grew up, living with her relatives, even had a job in her father's factory. Told me she had changed and might not be able to see me any more. Then after another month she quarreled with her relatives, returned to Kyiv and was back to her normal self. Nothing like a few months of factory work in a small town to make a girl appreciate being sponsored in the big city.

I don't try to put ideas in her head. Just let her talk. She is ethnic Ukrainian, but not nationalist. Mainly worried about the apartment in Kyiv she bought last year, which has escaped damage so far. Doesn't give a damn about Donbas or Crimea. Was complaining that Poroshenko wanted and Zelensky wants war because they can steal more that way. Also complains that all the good young men are dying (in other words, she wants options to being dependent on 30 year older foreigners like me, not that I'm surprised or offended). Bad young men (alcoholics, criminals, stupid) are not at risk because the army doesn't want them or they run off and hide in a dacha somewhere. She predicts the next generation of Ukrainians will be idiots if they keep killing the good young men while leaving bad ones alive. I disagreed: one surviving good man can impregnate 100 young women, if necessary. But not me, I have a vasectomy. Anyway, I don't think she has any interest in children. She got a cat when she turned 30 and her phone is filled with photos of the animal. (he is cute, I must admit.).

War isn't over, but the outcome is increasingly obvious. At the current rate of bleeding, Ukraine will be in no position to launch a counter-attack. New USA artillery enough to stop Russian advances, but not push Russia back. So there will be a stalemate. Russia takes entire southeast, including access to Azov sea. Then they dig trenches and wait 5 years for EU to get tired of hearing about Ukraine. Meanwhile, Russia reconfigures to be immune to sanctions, thus free to cause all sorts of mischief for USA. Predictably bad result for USA, but that's what happens when silly young idealists in the State Department are let to run loose.

Prior to 2014, Ukraine was merely being pressured to accept subordination to Russia, same as Canada and Mexico are subordinate to USA. After the thug-led street putsch of 2014, as punishment for their treasonous attempt to switch from team Russia to team USA, Ukraine was deprived of Crimea and put under pressure to give Donbas some autonomy and renounce treason towards team Russia. This was the situation when Zelensky entered office. By the time Zelensky leaves office, Ukraine will presumably have lost the entire southeast (no longer an option to keep these oblasts but give them some local autonomy regarding language policy), plus it will have suffered immense human and property destruction, plus there will still be an ongoing and costly stalemate conflict. Talk about a disastrous presidency (I'm referring to Zelensky, not Putin or Biden). Maybe the USA and EU will financially bail out what remains of Ukraine, though I wouldn't count on 100% bailout.

Dramafree11 obviously doesn't think highly of Ukraine, but then neither do I, given how stupidly they have behaved these past 30 years. Neither he nor I is praising Russia. But to give another metaphor, if you live next door to a mafia boss and he tells he doesn't want people parking on the street in front of his house, it's stupid argue that he has no right to impose such rules. Is asserting your right to park where you want really worth having your windshield smashed, your skull fractured by one of his goons, your child shot in the stomach, etc?

Some stupid commentators here couldn't understand my previous metaphor about robbery, and no doubt they'll repeat their stupidity in interpreting this metaphor. The very essence of stupidity is to misunderstand threats. Stupid people can't understand anything, so they have to be taught the hard way, by physical pain. You don't know why the mafia boss wants the street kept clear. Maybe he wants to throw his weight around and show everyone he's boss, maybe he has good security reasons related to threats from other mafia bosses. Regardless, his demand is easy to comply with. If every time a mafia boss makes a small demand, you start shrieking like Chicken Little that the sky is falling and it's Hitler and 1938 all over again and next step is genocide, etc, etc then you lack judgement. Which is equivalent to saying you are a stupid fool, and hopefully you will never be given a position of responsibility in the USA. Ukraine is a fine example of what happens when stupid fools are given power. I can personally survive the destruction of Ukraine, since I'm not heavily invested there, but USA is another story.

[AlanXL]

Let's not forget how the war really started back in 2014. Of course no one is talking about these things. And we all know who is behind the coup.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fXslPCrN_9E

[PedroMorales]

NATO office boy Jens Stoltenberg, at a meeting with Finland's office boys, has said NATO will trade Ukrainian territory for peace. Too late. Ukraine must meet the demands of Russia and, if Poland and Romania ant a slice, ok. Also, the Biden family and other Americans involved in biolabs must get their day in court, a Russian court.

Stoltenberg would do best by traveling to the north of his country and camping out with polar bears, who need a feed.

Finland, meanwhile, now won't join NATO without Sweden.

Hopefully soon it will be open season.

Zelensky, the gangster who plays the piano with his cock, is abandoned, just like he abandoned his troops in the East.

Other News: There have been over two dozen mass shootings in the USA since those children were massacred in Texas. The Israelis, who are over represented in this thread, continue to slaughter and rob the natives by the day. You people are beyond contempt.