Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[Xpartan]

The whole idea of de-Nazifying a country with a Jewish president who won 73% of the vote is about ludicrous. Add the fact that Neo-Nazi soldiers only represent a relatively small number of a single battalion (Azov, 10 to 20%) and it's fully ludicrous.

Even Azov can't be seen as Neo-Nazis today after the brigade purged the Nazi sympathizers in 2016-2017. What personal views Azov soldiers are harboring nowadays, who knows, but that's true about pretty much anybody.

But Putin claims are awfully rich considering that FSB tried to control Azov back in a day and at one point managed to install an FSB agent as Azov's leader. The Russian influence didn't take, though, and Azov became the most successful military regimen in the Ukrainian army.

https://news.yahoo.com/azov-regiment...142500366.html

[Elvis 2008]

I scanned over your post to me and didn't see where you answered my question about the Russia-Ukraine Friendship Treaty of 1999, long before Trump and Covid were ever on the scene. Both parties signed on for this, and it confirmed existing borders. It was in place, both during the Russian incursions into The Donbas in 2008, as well as the time of the annexation of Crimea.

"One of the key obligations set by the Treaty was Article 2, which observed that the parties 'shall honour each other's territorial integrity and shall acknowledge the inviolability of the borders existing between them'. Article 3 further clarified that the parties 'shall structure their relations. On the principles of. Sovereign equality, territorial integrity, inviolability of borders'."

https://opiniojuris.org/2019/05/01/t...ate-%EF%BB%BF/

Paulie, there were all the fact checkers who disputed Putin's historical take on Ukraine. To me, it is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

I'm sincere. Hint: Russia of course has a spin on it. Who in this world is ever wrong? Wink They typically have justifications for their actions. Go to any prison and try to find a guilty person. Germany surely did with the invasions of both Czechoslovakia and Poland at the start of WW 2. They were the good guys so they claimed. Because all such actions have justifications behind them, no matter how spurious. But you should be familiar with these issues if you want to make the arguments you are making. You may have to step away from the current website you are sourcing. You might even have to go directly to Russian sources.

I completely agree with you. We have had disputes about this before. You have called this attack on Ukraine unprovoked, and I have told you that I saw with my own eyes Biden's military buildup and his history. I cannot recall any war Biden has not supported. But whether it was provoked or not, the issue at hand is the American taxpayer continuing to pay for this war.

One other question, if Putin is such a good guy, why do all his serious political opponents end up dead or in jail? It's usually the former.

I never said Putin was a good guy, but he was the one telling the truth on Russiagate. And we are in the same situation as we were then. I am not buying the good guy bad guy scenario with the USA intelligence agencies given their history.

But when you have the government agency response which is attacking Tucker Carlson and saying do not listen to him or Putin IMO you have lost the argument. This is the same tactic that you are accusing Putin of, censorship. And Democrats do not get the high ground on political opponents and jailing them given what is happening with Trump and not happening with Biden.

Still, what is the end game? Why do we care more about Ukraine's borders than our own? I look at weapons manufacturers just like vaccine manufacturers with Covid and everything is being done in their interests and IMO not the American public's. No one has made a compelling case as to why we care so much about Ukraine and are willing to send them so much money.

P.S. I did watch parts of the interview. Putin at points was extremely disrespectful to Tucker, mocking him at one point, for the latter was rejected in his bid to join the CIA. Carlson looked bewildered and stunned at the moment, and was clearly way out of his element.

Here we go again. Here is an interview with Tucker right after he spoke to Putin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzlt1VVBcg8.

Look at the boxes on the side and how many views there were of the interview in India? Look at how many people are in the audience where he is speaking. Attacking Carlson and not his opinions and ideas means you have lost.

And Xpartan just lost. Zelensky is his own man. Boris Johnson did not have the power to scuttle the negotiations. Issuing declarations with nothing to back them up means you lose. That is why there is such a fight on this issue. It is the same tactics we saw with Covid and Russiagate. How do you know Putin is going to invade the rest of Europe? Because we say so, and you are an idiot if you do not go along with us means you just lost.

And guys like Xpartan keep attacking me as if I am the one who holds the key. Let us leave American politics. Putin says he wants negotiated peace, and the official response is Tucker Carlson is a hack and Putin is lying. Do you think that works with the thinking Indian people who watched this interview? Because I sure do not. We look like a bunch of foolish war mongers.

[Paulie97]

In Russia, as well. In spades. And plenty of them are fighting in Ukraine.

Russian Neo-Nazis Participate in 'Denazifying' Ukraine.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/...spiegel-a77762

Meet the Russian neo-Nazis fighting for Ukraine.

https://www.codastory.com/episodes/m...g-for-ukraine/

Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?

https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-.../31871760.html

Time to denazify Russia, I guess.

The whole idea of de-Nazifying a country with a Jewish president who won 73% of the vote is about ludicrous. Add the fact that Neo-Nazi soldiers only represent a relatively small number of a single battalion (Azov, 10 to 20%) and it's fully ludicrous.

[Paulie97]

Again, Boris Johnson didn't and couldn't have broken the so-called "peace talks" with Moscow. He didn't have the power, he didn't have the sway.

"Expressing concerns" is not the same as giving orders. Every sane person would've and probably did express concerns about negotiating with Putin. It's been proven times and again that Putin doesn't give a fuck about any agreements or treaties he signs.

Zelensky is his own man. The whole presumption that the Ukrainian government would've just taken an order from Boris Johnson (or anyone else for that matter) is beyond preposterous. It's crazy and idiotic.

Of course for authoritarians like yourself, countries don't matter. Only strongmen do. Well, the whole world predicted that Kyiv would fall in three days. Where are these "analysts" now? Ukraine has proved that they're perfectly capable of kicking Putin's ass, we just need to help them a little.

It's like saying Biden should have guaranteed that Ukraine would be perpetually excluded from NATO. He didn't remotely have that power, while any such exclusion violates the charter. Putin already knew what the response to his demand would be. The plan to rapidly take Kyiv and install a puppet was already in play.

[Paulie97]

I scanned over your post to me and didn't see where you answered my question about the Russia-Ukraine Friendship Treaty of 1999, long before Trump and Covid were ever on the scene. Both parties signed on for this, and it confirmed existing borders. It was in place, both during the Russian incursions into The Donbas in 2008, as well as the time of the annexation of Crimea.

"One of the key obligations set by the Treaty was Article 2, which observed that the parties 'shall honour each other's territorial integrity and shall acknowledge the inviolability of the borders existing between them'. Article 3 further clarified that the parties 'shall structure their relations. On the principles of. Sovereign equality, territorial integrity, inviolability of borders'."

https://opiniojuris.org/2019/05/01/t...ate-%EF%BB%BF/

I'm sincere. Hint: Russia of course has a spin on it. Who in this world is ever wrong? Wink They typically have justifications for their actions. Go to any prison and try to find a guilty person. Germany surely did with the invasions of both Czechoslovakia and Poland at the start of WW 2. They were the good guys so they claimed. Because all such actions have justifications behind them, no matter how spurious. But you should be familiar with these issues if you want to make the arguments you are making. You may have to step away from the current website you are sourcing. You might even have to go directly to Russian sources.

One other question, if Putin is such a good guy, why do all his serious political opponents end up dead or in jail? It's usually the former.

P.S. I did watch parts of the interview. Putin at points was extremely disrespectful to Tucker, mocking him at one point, for the latter was rejected in his bid to join the CIA. Carlson looked bewildered and stunned at the moment, and was clearly way out of his element. He delivers Putes a softball interview and for his trouble gets impaled. Carlson also lied when he said he was the first US journalist to go there during the hostilities. Two Americans, Evan Gershkovich, WSJ and Alsu Kurmasheva, Radio Free Europe have recently been detained in Russia, and the former is still there. CNN also claims to have repeatedly begged Putin for an interview. Of course you don't find them reliable, and I don't either at times, but it's tough to doubt them on that point. They never shy away from inviting controversial figures onto the shows.

[Xpartan]

Uh, let us quote your source.

From Boris Johnson: Mr Johnson asserted that, during a conversation with Mr Zelensky following the peace talks in Istanbul, he had "expressed concerns" about the nature of the potential agreement.

From Ukraine: The former prime minister's rebuttal came following statements made by David Arakhamiya, head of the Ukrainian delegation in talks with Russia. Mr Arakhamiya cited a previous visit by Mr Johnson to Kyiv as forming part of the decision not to negotiate with Moscow in 2022. Mr Johnson had allegedly said that Ukraine "shouldn't sign anything with them at all and let's just fight".

From Putin: Speaking of the proposed negotiations, Mr Putin continued: "We have never refused. And the fact that they obeyed the demand or persuasion of Mr Johnson, the former prime minister of Great Britain, seems ridiculous and very sad to me.

Uh, everyone involved said Johnson did exactly that.

What is sad is you, a supposedly grown man, reads the headlines without getting into the facts.

Again, Boris Johnson didn't and couldn't have broken the so-called "peace talks" with Moscow. He didn't have the power, he didn't have the sway.

"Expressing concerns" is not the same as giving orders. Every sane person would've and probably did express concerns about negotiating with Putin. It's been proven times and again that Putin doesn't give a fuck about any agreements or treaties he signs.

Zelensky is his own man. The whole presumption that the Ukrainian government would've just taken an order from Boris Johnson (or anyone else for that matter) is beyond preposterous. It's crazy and idiotic.

Of course for authoritarians like yourself, countries don't matter. Only strongmen do. Well, the whole world predicted that Kyiv would fall in three days. Where are these "analysts" now? Ukraine has proved that they're perfectly capable of kicking Putin's ass, we just need to help them a little.

[Elvis 2008]

Here is another one, especially for Elvis, who seems to believe every word that comes from the mouth of Putin. No, Johnson didn't kill a peace deal with Russia. There wasn't and couldn't have been any peace deal with Russia in the spring of 2022 and besides Johnson didn't have the power or a sway to have killed a peace deal even if there was one.

Uh, let us quote your source.

From Boris Johnson: Mr Johnson asserted that, during a conversation with Mr Zelensky following the peace talks in Istanbul, he had "expressed concerns" about the nature of the potential agreement.

From Ukraine: The former prime minister's rebuttal came following statements made by David Arakhamiya, head of the Ukrainian delegation in talks with Russia. Mr Arakhamiya cited a previous visit by Mr Johnson to Kyiv as forming part of the decision not to negotiate with Moscow in 2022. Mr Johnson had allegedly said that Ukraine "shouldn't sign anything with them at all and let's just fight".

From Putin: Speaking of the proposed negotiations, Mr Putin continued: "We have never refused. And the fact that they obeyed the demand or persuasion of Mr Johnson, the former prime minister of Great Britain, seems ridiculous and very sad to me.

No, Johnson didn't kill a peace deal with Russia. There wasn't and couldn't have been any peace deal with Russia in the spring of 2022 and besides Johnson didn't have the power or a sway to have killed a peace deal even if there was one.

Uh, everyone involved said Johnson did exactly that.

What is sad is you, a supposedly grown man, reads the headlines without getting into the facts.

The headline reads: Putin repeats 'nonsense' claim Boris Johnson scuppered efforts to end Ukraine invasion.

Did you even bother to read who made the claim that Putin was repeating? That would be the head of the Ukrainian delegation.

It's sad that a grown-up man would believe anything coming from Putin or Trump, the two most prolific liars of our time.

Putin was verifying facts already known, dummy, but you hate Putin so much if Putin said the moon is not made of green cheese, you would say, "It sure is."

I have been down this rabbit hole with you before. When Victoria Neuland, a POS warmongering necon, picked out Ukraine's leader and was asked about the EU's concern about that leader, she said, "Fuck the EU. " You challenged me on the fact. You did not look it up. You just bought it when I said I was making up that fact versus it really happening.

You are the most factually challenged and gullible guy on here. For the millionth time, if you care so damned much about Ukraine, why have you not volunteered to fight?

[Xpartan]

That's quite a weak standard there man. Yes they do, and in the US, the UK, Germany, and many other Euro countries.

In Russia, as well. In spades. And plenty of them are fighting in Ukraine.

Russian Neo-Nazis Participate in 'Denazifying' Ukraine.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/...spiegel-a77762

Meet the Russian neo-Nazis fighting for Ukraine.

https://www.codastory.com/episodes/m...g-for-ukraine/

Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?

https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-.../31871760.html

Time to denazify Russia, I guess.

[Xpartan]

Were you trying to install imbedded links? If so they didn't take, and may not be possible on this site.

Tucker Carlson interview: Fact-checking Putin's 'nonsense'.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68255302

Putin, in rambling interview, barely lets Tucker Carlson get a word in.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...view-released/#text=Carlson%20 said%20 he%20 felt%20 that,%E2%80%9 Cdenazification%E2%80%9 the%20 of%20 the%20 country.

Putin's Myths About Ukraine, Debunked.

https://time.com/6693504/vladimir-pu...aine-debunked/

Putin Used Tucker Carlson to Wipe the Kremlin's Floor.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...ne-1234965053/

Here is another one, especially for Elvis, who seems to believe every word that comes from the mouth of Putin. No, Johnson didn't kill a peace deal with Russia. There wasn't and couldn't have been any peace deal with Russia in the spring of 2022 and besides Johnson didn't have the power or a sway to have killed a peace deal even if there was one.

Putin repeats nonsense claim Boris Johnson scuppered efforts to end Ukraine invasion

Vladimir Putin has repeated a claim that Boris Johnson scuppered negotiations for a peace settlement between Russia and Ukraine, which the former UK prime minister has previously labelled nonsense.

During a highly anticipated sit-down interview with former Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson, the Russian president said, via a translator, that a huge document had been prepared and approved by the head of the Ukrainian delegation, before Mr Johnson had stepped in and dissuaded Ukraines president Volodymyr Zelensky.

Putin said of Zelensky: He put his signature and then he himself said, We were ready to sign it and the war would have been over long ago. However, Prime Minister Johnson came to talk us out of it, and weve missed that chance.

In an interview with The Times in January, Mr Johnson strongly denied the claims, which have been previously aired by Moscow, describing them as total nonsense and Russian propaganda.

Mr Johnson asserted that, during a conversation with Mr Zelensky following the peace talks in Istanbul, he had expressed concerns about the nature of the potential agreement, but assured him of the UKs unwavering support for Ukraine.

He said: No peace proposals or peace agreement were possible in February or March 2022. Russia entered Ukraine solely for the sake of seizing territories, killing citizens and overthrowing a democratic government.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2493341.html

It's sad that a grown-up man would believe anything coming from Putin or Trump, the two most prolific liars of our time.

[Elvis 2008]

For whatever reasons they want this crazy war to continue. The funny part is they all claim Trump / Putin will go to jail, but Pres Z. , will probably be the one that ends up in jail or killed. The sooner this happens the better off we will be. What a disaster and all the blame goes the Democratic's / the Euros.

Yeah, Tucker Carlson was asking this too. WTF was the purpose of this? With the Covid vaccines and children, it was bureaucrats pushing the vaccine so the drug companies could make billions while putting millions in the pockets of the bureaucrats. If anyone does not see that now, they are a sap.

After the Putin interview, it was obvious Putin wants the war to end, and the neocons and defense contractors want it to keep going. I suspect some day we will learn of the same billions / millions split here as well, and in both cases, these parties do not give a fuck about all the bodies they leave behind.

[Elvis 2008]

But you know we get it, to you the Dems and Neo-cons are the bad guys while Putin and the "America First" right wing crowd in the states along with similar groups in Europe are good and honorable.

There were tens of millions of people who voted for Trump. Russiagate was a made up bullshit attempt to get those votes tossed in the trash and have Trump ousted. The media was flooded with Russia, Russia, Russia for years.

Then came Covid with the most arrogant antivaxxer shit attached to it. Children were lined up to get vaccinated or shamed for not doing so. Why? For them? Or because some in the deep state profited off of the vaccine? There was no explanation for why children needed to be vaccinated, just sheer arrogance.

Then Covid is flung off the front page and it is Ukraine all day every day. Zelensky is not a comedian playing a piano with his dick. He is now a modern day Jesus. Yellow and blue ribbons are everywhere. Money flows to Zelensky just like it did with the vaccines and Covid. Anyone questioning that money is deemed a nut job.

Then the facts dribble out. The whole notion that Russia is going into Paris and beyond fizzles out. The questions about what victory means are raised and about why there is so much concern about the borders in Ukraine and not our own.

And why is so much fucking money going to Ukraine? What the fuck does it have to do with us? And it really comes down to one question: Is Putin going to invade Europe and start World War 3? Putin answered that Russia invading Europe is fucking crazy. He said the fear mongering going on is to extract money from American and European taxpayers.

The real tell for me with Putin though was when he was asked about the Nordstream pipeline and who blew it up. Putin could have laid out the same factual basis Seymour Hersh did in his reporting, but he does not. He says look at who said they were going to blow up the pipeline and look at who is capable of doing it. Here is a guy who could easily justify a war with Europe as the blowing up of the pipeline was an act of war, and he does not go there.

And then you have Peter Zeihan saying the Polish flag has flown over Moscow before and may again, and Poland is now buying up tons and tons of tanks and actually predicting that Poland might get together with other nations and invade Russia. It is getting more and more obvious which side in this conflict wants war.

And then there was the response from the Democrats and the media, and it was the same as with Covid and Russiagate. Putin is a liar. He is a war criminal. Tucker Carlson asked softball questions (even before the interview was aired). Tucker Carlson should be banned from Europe. He is not a journalist. It is arrogance with no basis in fact. There is just shouting down or banning anyone who disagrees with the now obviously flawed narrative.

We have seen this movie before. In fact, we already know the ending. When we ask what did we get for our money spent in Ukraine, or on the Covid vaccines, or on the Russiagate probe, we will be shushed away as if that huge waste of time and money never happened and lectured and shamed on this new great danger we have to spend billions on no questions asked.

[Paulie97]

The Minsk agreements related to cease fires. Russian backed separatists agreed to the first but not the second, obviously because it involved Ukrainian control of their land, the Donbass, and with elections to follow. That's all neither here nor there though to the Russia-Ukraine Friendship agreement of 1999 of which solidified Ukrainian territory, and that of course includes the Donbass and Crimea. You've yet to comment on this 1999 agreement, but did answer my other question.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ct-2022-02-21/

Regarding Putins historic claims to Ukraine for Russia, here's a concise rebuttal.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/0...inian-history/

Even if Putin were correct this doesn't remove Ukraine's right to the territory that was guaranteed in the Russia-Ukraine Friendship agreement of 1999. And like it or not, Ukrainians are a separate people, with their own language, traditional dress, national heros, myths, historic national songs, art, literature, etc. That make up a distinct people. P.S. I'll add that any in the Donbass or Crimea that want to be Russian don't have far to travel as Russia is very close. They haven't any right to steal land. While only a handful of countries recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea. It's hardly an impressive list and includes Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua.

But you know we get it, to you the Dems and Neo-cons are the bad guys while Putin and the "America First" right wing crowd in the states along with similar groups in Europe are good and honorable.

I personally consider Putin a war criminal that has murdered civilians with precision weapons while exporting Ukrainian children to indoctrination camps. I'm also convinced that the likelihood of him honoring any ceasefire agreements are practically zero. I consider myself an independent and a moderate.

DiVinci feel free to archive these links and any others you find. I'm way behind on work around the house, so may not be around for at least a few days.

[DramaFree11]

Xpartan's link to Putin's lies referred to Putin's verbal history of the region. It was not exactly titillating stuff.

What lies are you talking about? Did Ukraine violate the Minsk agreement? Do neonazis not exist in Ukraine? Was the Dombas bombed by Ukraine? Didn't Boris Johnson scuttle peace talks?

The best I have seen is that Russia was violating the Minsk agreement as well, but tThis is the EXACT same attitude you lefties took with Russiagate and now you still do not fess up that it was all bullshit. So you Dems and your intelligence agencies need to do one helluva lot better with explaining yourselves than the same old cocky we know best attitude because we have seen that movie before, and whether you like it or not, on Russiagate, Putin was the one telling the truth, and you lefties were the ones lying.

Elvis these guys are idiots: they leave out the following information:

-440,000-500, Ukraine soldiers are dead, probably more. There is another 500-1 million so injured they will never be able to work again, or severe in the military.

-Millions were feeing the before the war.

-no new births of children.

-corruption is still rampant.

-I can go on.

For whatever reasons they want this crazy war to continue. The funny part is they all claim Trump / Putin will go to jail, but Pres Z. , will probably be the one that ends up in jail or killed. The sooner this happens the better off we will be. What a disaster and all the blame goes the Democratic's / the Euros.

[Paulie97]

Do neonazis not exist in Ukraine?

That's quite a weak standard there man. Yes they do, and in the US, the UK, Germany, and many other Euro countries.

[Elvis 2008]

It might be worth collecting the links in one post to stop the constant sealioning from the Z propaganda team. The current tactic is to constantly regurgitate refuted points every couple of months to exhaust people. Would be much easier to just copy and paste one post they can refer to since they refuse to read the thread, or more likely deliberately ignoring the information, and hoping to skirt by with their lies and false interpretations.

Xpartan's link to Putin's lies referred to Putin's verbal history of the region. It was not exactly titillating stuff.

What lies are you talking about? Did Ukraine violate the Minsk agreement? Do neonazis not exist in Ukraine? Was the Dombas bombed by Ukraine? Didn't Boris Johnson scuttle peace talks?

The best I have seen is that Russia was violating the Minsk agreement as well, but tThis is the EXACT same attitude you lefties took with Russiagate and now you still do not fess up that it was all bullshit. So you Dems and your intelligence agencies need to do one helluva lot better with explaining yourselves than the same old cocky we know best attitude because we have seen that movie before, and whether you like it or not, on Russiagate, Putin was the one telling the truth, and you lefties were the ones lying.