Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[Blood Red]

Do you have a copy of what Putin wrote down before Feb 24th? Do you have copies of all those who wrote down that Russia would win handily and quickly? It's ok if your copies are in Cyrillic or other non-English scripts, we can use Google Translate.

Just thought it would be a useful exercise to gather all the failed predictions in one spot.

What you fail to understand is that Putin didn't declare a full war on Ukraine on Feb 24,2022. That is why it was called a Special Military Operation. It was a limited operation with set goals with limited manpower. Putin didn't set out to destroy Ukraine, because he knew these are fellow Orthodox Slavs. Why do you think he didn't touch the Ukrainian critical infrastructure until the terrorist attack on the Crimea bridge? All that changed when the West forced Elensky to not negotiate, like he was ready to do in March 2022. Read his interviews from back then, you will know that he was ready to discuss neutrality, Crimea under Russia and the borders for the Donbass. Then Boris Johnson went to Kiev and hijacked it, that's the real tragedy. Plus, Elensky is corrupt, he's getting richer everyday with billions. It's the ordinary Ukrainian people that are suffering.

Now the gloves are off, it's a full scale war. Read what Zaluzhny said in the interview to the economist the other day. He clearly sees the writing on the wall. Unless NATO intervenes militarily, which they won't because as I said, the aim is to make Russia bleed for as long as possible, not for Ukraine to win.

[GDreams]

All Elensky had to do was to implement the Minsk accords which he didn't. Did you catch what Angela Merkel said the other day? There was never any seriousness to implement the Minsk accords, they just wanted to buy Ukraine time. What you're seeing now and in the near future will be the death of Ukraine as a state. I blame America and the West, and of course that corrupt puppet Elensky and the Bandera clan surrounding him.

All Putin had to do was not invade Ukraine in 2014. I blame Putin and his stooge Yanukovich and of course all the corrupt oligachs who support hime.

[Jmsuttr]

All Elensky had to do was to implement the Minsk accords which he didn't. Did you catch what Angela Merkel said the other day? There was never any seriousness to implement the Minsk accords, they just wanted to buy Ukraine time. What you're seeing now and in the near future will be the death of Ukraine as a state. I blame America and the West, and of course that corrupt puppet Elensky and the Bandera clan surrounding him.

The idea that, after the passage of three years, some critical event happened that precipitated the Feb-24th invasion, giving Putin no choice, is ludicrous on its face. Countries have disputes all the time but they rarely choose war. As a major geopolitical player, he had many cards he could have played, but he explicitly chose military action.

Oh, and Angela Merkel has been rapidly losing face, from both sides of the issue. I don't see many quotes or references about her other than as an example of someone for whom the substance didn't match the image. And, whenever she's discussed, the reactions generally range from disappointment to anger.

Also, by any metric you use to judge Ukraine (fascism, Nazism, corruption, totalitarianism, etc.), Russia's scores will be off the charts. It's quite amusing to read people's criticism of Ukraine while they make moon-eyes at the Russian kleptocracy. But I guess any Russian citizen who doesn't like the system can just leave, right? Except, that if they're a prominent dissident, they'd be wise to avoid windows on high floors, and politely refuse any offer of polonium-laced tea.

[Jmsuttr]

Exactly, but guys like Pauline and XMan can not comprehend this. How exactly are we going to prosecute Putin, unless we are willing to invade Russia absolutely nothing will happen. Unless the people revolt against Putin and if that was going to happen, it would happened months ago. We are stuck with Putin, Pres. Z and Biden. Elvis is correct, there are many to blame for this war besides Putin. The funny thing is they almost nothing to end it, go figure, why win a war? Let it drag on forever.

Both Ukraine and Russia are screwed either way. As I have been saying Ukraine, lose either way, but that is what Ukraine does best beside corruption, they lose.

All the pre-invasion geopolitical circumstances were in existence long before February 24th. None of then sprang up overnight. Putin, as the leader of a country boasting of (everyone thought) a powerful military and nuclear arsenal, had a wide variety of cards he could have played. And, diplomatically speaking, he had a number of key allies and supporting countries. Let's take one supposed provocation as an example, the possibility that Ukraine might join NATO. Pre-Feb 24th, there were plenty of NATO members who would have vetoed any such proposal, some because they didn't want to provoke Russia, others because they thought Ukraine was unsuitable, and others for different reasons. Now, however, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Ukraine in NATO in the near-to-midterm future.

All the geopolitical influence and all the status Russia had prior to the invasion has now been flushed down the toilet. And, adding insult to injury, Russia's military has been exposed as a corrupt paper tiger.

Putin didn't invade because he was forced and it's hilarious to hear some people, those who say how strong and savvy he is, simultaneously try to say that he was duped or lured or forced. Anyone who says that is essentially denying Putin's personal agency and turning him into a puppet, with strings being pulled by others. What nonsense! He did it because he believed his own internal propaganda and thought it was an opportune time to get a quick and decisive victory. Unfortunately, all his FSB butt-boys were telling him that Ukraine was ripe for the picking, not because it was true, but because it was what the FSB chain of command wanted to pass up the line. Nobody in that system wants to be the bearer of bad (or realistic) news.

And, about ending the war, I repeat my earlier suggestions for a simple solution. 1. Russia willingly stops fighting. 2. Russia unwillingly stops fighting. The issue of prosecuting Putin is a post-war matter that will be dealt with, or not, when the time comes. Nobody is talking about invading Russia, so that's a red herring. The proposed solutions, either 1 or 2, can happen without invasion.

[Jmsuttr]

This war is a crime against humanity, and it is a failure of both sides and believe me, both Russia and Ukraine will be far worse after this war.

You are 100% right, but when I listened to this video this morning, I was absolutely disgusted with the conduct of the Russians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_DyC0_K1xI.

So yeah, Putin has blood on his hands, and he and these Russian pricks are war criminals, but no one better dare tell me that the hands of Boris Johnson, Biden, and Obama are clean. It takes two to tango, and the West is not going to feed me this bullshit about how they were innocent in this war.

There have been no winners in this war. How in the world do you look at this war and say anyone is "winning"? Everyone is losing.

Ukraine can't withdraw since they're fighting on home soil. And, if they unilaterally stop fighting, most of the country will end up looking like Bakhmut or Mariupol.

But Russia can stop whenever it chooses to. And yes, it "Takes Two to Tango," but it only takes one to start a fight. One can decline an invitation to dance, but declining to defend yourself when attacked is an invitation to an early grave.

War is a crime against humanity: Check.

Bad guys (arguably) on both sides: Check.

No winners: Check.

Everyone is losing: Check.

Possible Solution 1: Russia willingly stops fighting.

Possible Solution 2: Russia unwillingly stops fighting.

[Jmsuttr]

The first point is absolutely correct. This isn't just about Russia's military excursion in the Ukraine. If Russian aggression was rewarded, it would send a dangerous message to Putin and even Xi Jinping.

As far as the point that this is an existential battle for the Ukraine, I generally agree. However if the war grinds on through next year, the practical reality is that there might need to be a negotiated resolution which isn't exactly the settlement Ukrainians want. We will understand a lot if there is indeed another attempt at a winter offensive by the Russians. Even if we presume the Ukraine will push back another offensive, we're still left with a irrational Russia. The Ukraine is fighting a destructive war that relies too much on a much larger enemy capitulating and possibly deposing its leader. Perhaps the Russian army is truly running out of resources and support of the Russian people.

Would I like this to end like Czar Nicholas' reign after entering World War I? Hell yeah. Is it worth a long, grinding war? Not sure.

As usual, I'm reluctant to play the prediction game. But, following along the "existential battle" theme, it's possible that the more grinding the war gets the more Ukrainians will be resolved to continue. It's paradoxical, I know, but think of it as kind of a Battle of Britain scenario. In other words, no matter how tough things get, they won't change their minds unless there's an acceptable alternative. And, post-2014 and Crimea, it's hard to imagine any territorial concession that won't be seen as merely an opportunity for Russia to re-arm and attack again in the future.

Again, too many variables in play to see very far ahead. Right now, as you correctly point out, the next phase of play is making it through the winter.

[Jmsuttr]

The ignorance here is staggering! This war did NOT start on Feb 24,2022. It started in 2014 when America helped stage the coup. Zelensky was ready to accept Russian sovereignty over Crimea, and part of the Donbas and neutrality back in March until the you. S and Britain told him not to because they wanted to make Russia bleed. Sure, Russia is bleeding but Ukraine will become a land locked country and a rump state the longer this goes on.

For the sake of argument, let's assume all your assertions are true. Whatever wrongs he felt needed to be corrected, Putin made the specific choice to use force. Once he did that, all other doors slammed shut. Any concessions Ukraine might have considered early in the war evaporated once it was clear the West would be supporting Ukraine and especially once Russia experienced setbacks like the retreat from near Kyiv. Nobody negotiates with an enemy who is failing on the battlefield. Putin's problem is that he miscalculated with respect to the resistance he would encounter from both Ukraine and beyond. He's now reaping the results of that miscalculation.

[Jmsuttr]

Man I can't believe some people buy into this horseshit. Russia will win this war, write this down.

You live in a fairytale world.

Do you have a copy of what Putin wrote down before Feb 24th? Do you have copies of all those who wrote down that Russia would win handily and quickly? It's ok if your copies are in Cyrillic or other non-English scripts, we can use Google Translate.

Just thought it would be a useful exercise to gather all the failed predictions in one spot.

[Elvis 2008]

At Elvis 2008: I was under impression you were capable of exercising a better judgement and not listen to talking head idiots like zeihan.

That "idiot" actually predicted this war would happen.

[Elvis 2008]

I am by no means condoning the conduct of the Russian military, it is brutal, but hey, war is hell. But the Ukrainians are the same if not worse. The western media doesn't talk about it. Yes, Putin has blood on his hands but I still think the West forced his hand to act. And Biden and Johnson have just as much blood on their hands. Lloyd Austin said months ago that the aim was to make sure Russia is not able to do what it do to Ukraine again. He didn't say anything about Ukraine winning. They want to make Russia bleed. The Ukrainian people are cannon fodder. This is an enormous tragedy for the Ukrainian people and could have easily been avoided.

Totally agree with you Blood Red.

[Blood Red]

The West did not force Putin to act. Putin saw an opportunity where he thought there was weakness. He is a criminal, stealing stuff is how criminals think. There was no Coup in Ukraine. Yanukovich broke his promises, there were protests, Yanukovich committed illegal acts on the advice of Putin. The military refused his illegal orders and he ran.

All Elensky had to do was to implement the Minsk accords which he didn't. Did you catch what Angela Merkel said the other day? There was never any seriousness to implement the Minsk accords, they just wanted to buy Ukraine time. What you're seeing now and in the near future will be the death of Ukraine as a state. I blame America and the West, and of course that corrupt puppet Elensky and the Bandera clan surrounding him.

[GDreams]

I am by no means condoning the conduct of the Russian military, it is brutal, but hey, war is hell. But the Ukrainians are the same if not worse. The western media doesn't talk about it. Yes, Putin has blood on his hands but I still think the West forced his hand to act. And Biden and Johnson have just as much blood on their hands. Lloyd Austin said months ago that the aim was to make sure Russia is not able to do what it do to Ukraine again. He didn't say anything about Ukraine winning. They want to make Russia bleed. The Ukrainian people are cannon fodder. This is an enormous tragedy for the Ukrainian people and could have easily been avoided.

The West did not force Putin to act. Putin saw an opportunity where he thought there was weakness. He is a criminal, stealing stuff is how criminals think. There was no Coup in Ukraine. Yanukovich broke his promises, there were protests, Yanukovich committed illegal acts on the advice of Putin. The military refused his illegal orders and he ran.

[Xpartan]

Instead of trying to insult me and failing at it, try to debate me in a respectful manner.

Debating a P'utin's disciple in a respectful manner would be a hell of a challenge I'm afraid. You're too extreme even for Elvis, and that's quite something, really.

[Blood Red]

Oh well, you're forgetting that Ukraine isn't Drama's home. Nothing is easier than giving away the lands that don't belong to you.

At first, I was pretty sure we're dealing with yet another Kremlyn bot based on the same regurgitating fascist propaganda P'utin's puke we've become so familiar with in the recent months on this forum. But no, you seem to be a legit monger, which just confirms that there are no geographical constrains for "useful idiots. " This, by the way, is not an insult, but rather a technical KGB / FSB term that defines people like you. Quite a precise definition, I'd say.

Instead of trying to insult me and failing at it, try to debate me in a respectful manner.

[Blood Red]

This war is a crime against humanity, and it is a failure of both sides and believe me, both Russia and Ukraine will be far worse after this war.

You are 100% right, but when I listened to this video this morning, I was absolutely disgusted with the conduct of the Russians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_DyC0_K1xI.

So yeah, Putin has blood on his hands, and he and these Russian pricks are war criminals, but no one better dare tell me that the hands of Boris Johnson, Biden, and Obama are clean. It takes two to tango, and the West is not going to feed me this bullshit about how they were innocent in this war.

There have been no winners in this war. How in the world do you look at this war and say anyone is "winning"? Everyone is losing.

I am by no means condoning the conduct of the Russian military, it is brutal, but hey, war is hell. But the Ukrainians are the same if not worse. The western media doesn't talk about it. Yes, Putin has blood on his hands but I still think the West forced his hand to act. And Biden and Johnson have just as much blood on their hands. Lloyd Austin said months ago that the aim was to make sure Russia is not able to do what it do to Ukraine again. He didn't say anything about Ukraine winning. They want to make Russia bleed. The Ukrainian people are cannon fodder. This is an enormous tragedy for the Ukrainian people and could have easily been avoided.