Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[Socker]

I am an American and in my opinion we don't need 12 military bases, 90,000 troops and the Sixth Fleet patrolling the Mediterranean to counter Russian aggression. As I pointed out in simple math, Germany alone could easily field a land-based army that would be very capable of turning back the Russians on the ground in the event of an attack on NATO allies. This isn't even counting Britain, France and several smaller economies with an effective military.

Your point about Russian nuclear capabilities is interesting, but why can't the United States contribute less men and equipment while contributing the nuclear deterrence to NATO without all the troops and bases? I assure you this will keep being discussed in our domestic politics in the next several years. If you take away Russia's nuclear force, their European land army and air force leave a lot to be desired. Their effectiveness or lack thereof in the Ukraine is a case and point.

Tucker's the ONLY Fox talking head dead set against the Ukrainian proxy war. Many of Tucker's guest are why Tucker's show is Fox's top rated. He is inclined to exaggerate and spotlight fringe issues to provoke the viewership but he doesn't need to lie. The truth nowadays is hard enough to believe so no need to lie. Filter out the exaggerations and occasional Covid rants and he's very good.

Like you, Tucker's against fighting Russia directly through Ukraine's army. I believe it's a half proxy war and very different from the quintessential proxy war when we funded terrorist in Syria against Putin's Assad in 2012. How much of Syria's big cities are left after we failed to dislodge Assad? And what will be left of Ukraine when the big powers decide they've had enough. We'll be super lucky if the conflict doesn't spread and wreck everyone's plans and we're due for a big one.

I like your post and a few others here but knocking Tucker and then mirroring his pov was unusual. Tucker is anti Ukraine war and for good reason. Cheers.

[The Cane]

And for the record: http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/a/Casualties.htm.

[WyattEarp]

We are involved in NATO for the simple reason to support our allies while we are an economic powerhouse and by far the primary nuclear power. Putin would love nothing more than for us to withdraw so he can further run roughshod in his region of the world. As to China, their nuclear capabilities are far less than that of Russia. Russia's is actually greater than the US by a small margin. China also hasn't been involved in a war on it's own since the Sino-Vietnamese conflict of 1979. They are primarily about economic advancement, and keeping good relations with a united US / EU will trump any lip service given to Russia.

Well there's a respectable endeavor which involves seeking to see all sides. Then there's a wishy washiness that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. That's what I see a lot with your posts on this subject and this attempted love in with Elvis, a person who openly supported the violence against the US capital saying it "should have been worse," along with stolen election lies and is an apologist for Vladimir Putin. But I'm afraid this one is the closest we've seen to black and white since Hitler. We have a tyrant manufacturing justifications for invasions and land grabs while targeting, murdering, executing civilians, with deportations and "filtering centers" / concentration camps for those who survive. There was no provocation whatsoever. The only threat was the interest in democracy in a country he sought to control.

As to anyone thinking Ukraine is going to have an easy time on the battlefield and live happily ever after, who the fuck has made that argument? Rofl Given the propensity toward straw men you and Elvis should get a long well. Enjoy the love in.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

P.S. Jmsuttr's posts are missed, but I can see why he dropped out. The pro-Russia crowd for whatever reason is very much the majority in the free for all threads on this pay for sex site, whatever that means. Going in circles with them daily, and for no pay is hardly worth the effort. Thankfully such traitors are very much the minority in the US, Western Europe, and certainly in NATO Eastern Euro countries. Ultimately that's what's most important.

It's seems like you cherry pick posts and use your own straw man approach. It would indeed make you the smartest person on any forum you participate if you arguing with a position and person that you have created. I think more than likely you jump in and out of threads and think you have everyone categorized. "Ah-ha! This Wyatt guy is in bed with Elvis. ".

I have criticized Elvis extensively here. However, I don't think he is one of the garden variety Russia lovers here. It's very possible that he watches too much Fox News and can't appreciate their prime time line-up is entertainment. We can get into all the political baggage about Trump, Russia, Biden, Ukraine, et cetera and grind the thread into the ground. I myself don't think any of the somewhat conspiratorial theses really hold up consistently. Tucker Carlson is a circus clown. I don't watch, but it can be entertainment if you view it as such. I would liken him to MSNBC's Rachel Maddow. She can spin a yarn that can make your head spin and enrage any self-respecting liberal. Yikes is all I have to say.

As far as unpacking your specific points, I am an American and in my opinion we don't need 12 military bases, 90,000 troops and the Sixth Fleet patrolling the Mediterranean to counter Russian aggression. As I pointed out in simple math, Germany alone could easily field a land-based army that would be very capable of turning back the Russians on the ground in the event of an attack on NATO allies. This isn't even counting Britain, France and several smaller economies with an effective military.

Your point about Russian nuclear capabilities is interesting, but why can't the United States contribute less men and equipment while contributing the nuclear deterrence to NATO without all the troops and bases? I assure you this will keep being discussed in our domestic politics in the next several years. If you take away Russia's nuclear force, their European land army and air force leave a lot to be desired. Their effectiveness or lack thereof in the Ukraine is a case and point.

I hope you are right about China. China is at an evolution in their autocracy where they will want to flex their muscle. Historically China has not been interested in a global military preeminence, but certainly have wanted to have more influence in the Western Pacific. Claiming the waters of the South China Sea and building airstrips there are aggressive actions. A simple look at the region on a map in relation to the Chinese mainland shows the hostile nature of the moves. Then you have China looking for allies in the South Pacific island chains to develop naval ports just north of Australia. China can project power in their region in a way Russia can only dream about.

Jmsuttr frequently posted articles that described an ailing, close to dying Putin and / or a Russian regime crumbling from within. I have simply said you would not want to encourage a long, protracted conflict in the Ukraine based on this hope that this could be the end result. The outcome to the war brings a lot of uncertainty. IMHO, he would get noticeably irritated with this perspective. My clearest point is that wars bring on massive uncertainty as to their end. Does one have to be 110% committed to supporting the war until every last Russian soldier evacuates the Ukraine or else be labeled a Russia sympathizer?

Wars are messy. Peace is messier. There's plenty of examples where wars became long, grinding stalemates and no one got what they wanted in the end. Even after the war, it's very possible that the Ukraine-Russia border will look like other conflict borders where there is a constant state of hostility and continuing skirmishes. Russia isn't just going to pack up and say "my bad". Yes, it sucks for the Ukraine, but I don't think anything else is realistically possible. A regime change could change things, but even that might not bring a lasting peace.

I personally hope the West has the last laugh one day with a prosperous Ukraine looking westward.

[The Cane]

That's the way the Kremlin crumbles!

https://www.businessinsider.com/russ...udy-2022-7?amp

[The Cane]

The Japanese were great hand to hand fighters as the American vermin they dispatched across the Pacific found out.

Who were the vermin needing to be burned out of their rat holes? Yep, that's what I thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftCUztfzcxA. And how were Japanese losses compared to American loses? Yep, exactly what I recalled: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftCUztfzcxA. But it's all neither here nor there. Because it's Ruskie losses that we want to know about! In the end maybe they shall prevail. But only at a horrific loss of Ruskie aggressor lives!

[PedroMorales]

Just throw bodies at them. This is how the Ruskies do. Leave their dead upon the field of battle too. The only ones better at running up a willfully high body count are the Japanese. Why they beat Russia one-on-one. Who is willing to sacrifice the most lives in order to prevail?

https://www.aol.com/news/russia-suff...150659330.html

The Japanese were great hand to hand fighters as the American vermin they dispatched across the Pacific found out. That was due to their training in kendo. Japan's losses were down to a variety of factors, mostly lack of supplies (the blockade started the war) and bad CC&see. The USA bombed Iraq and raped Iraqi children because of weapons of mass destructions. Send your rapists to Ukraine and see what happens to them.

Ukraine is like most countries in that American filth know nothing about it. It is Zelensky's fodder who are getting minced. Artillery and missiles then to do that. Opinion is turning in Europe and hopefully, soon it will be open season. Fuck off and read your Vogue magazine.

[The Cane]

Just throw bodies at them. This is how the Ruskies do. Leave their dead upon the field of battle too. The only ones better at running up a willfully high body count are the Japanese. Why they beat Russia one-on-one. Who is willing to sacrifice the most lives in order to prevail?

https://www.aol.com/news/russia-suff...150659330.html

[Travv]

Wonder what Washington DCs reaction would be if Mexico or Cuba had allied with the USSR and had build nuclear armed missile sites and bioweapons labs near the USA. Think there are a number of movies about this scenario, such as 13 Days In November about the Cuban missile crisis. Ukraine is not a vital interest to American citizens and not worth risking a nuclear war. If you feel it is a vital interest, go join the Ukrainian Legion at the Ukie Embassy and leave the rest of us out of the nuclear brinkmanship!

That's 100% true and simple enough for a 4th grader to understand. Even Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Tucker Carlson are smart enough to understand it. But it can't be entertained because it conflicts with their white nationalist, isolationist agenda that calls on the US to withdraw from the world stage. Putin would love that, and it's why they are on the same team.

You know an argument can be made to seize Rupert Murdock's assets and shut down Fox News since certain guests, and especially Carlson, are allowed to freely disseminate information easily confirmed as false that supports and gives comfort to our enemy. This was done in the lead up to and during WW II while Nazi sympathizing organizations like the German American Bund were dissolved. Here's an article that makes the argument. I'm personally not ready for that step but it's something to keep on the back burner. Fox deals heavily in Kremlin propaganda, and this is at odds with our national security. Here's a sample:

"Russia would never give genuine western journalists airtime. But it can always find a slot for its favourite quisling: Fox News's Tucker Carlson. He pushes out Russian propaganda lines or perhaps creates his own lies for Russia to use. Ukraine, not Russia, is the real tyranny. Nato provoked poor Vladimir Putin. The west is plotting to use biological weapons. Last week, he floated the theory that the war was not the result of an unprovoked invasion by a colonialist dictatorship but of the Biden administration's desire to avenge Donald Trump's victory in 2016.

[Elvis 2008]

It's just a rehash of Russian propaganda that Elvis was spoonfed watching Tucker Carlson. He's regurgitating it here and isn't capable of anything more. For one thing Biden lacks the authority to exclude any European country from ever joining NATO as this is against the provisions of the treaty and open door policy.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/202.../ugnk-m17.html.

For a new country to join NATO, all 30 member states must be unanimous in supporting it.

And realistically speaking, if the USA which pays the most into NATO said no to Ukraine coming in, it would not happen. Hell, Turkey was going to prevent Sweden and Finland from coming in.

I am not being spoon fed anything but you are. Was this a lie you came up with on your own or were you spoon fed it by MSNBC, NYT, WaPO?

[Paulie97]

Precisely! The reason Ukrainians want to join NATO is the same reason why all former Russia's vassals wanted to be in NATO -- to get protected from the Evil Empire. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's 100% true and simple enough for a 4th grader to understand. Even Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Tucker Carlson are smart enough to understand it. But it can't be entertained because it conflicts with their white nationalist, isolationist agenda that calls on the US to withdraw from the world stage. Putin would love that, and it's why they are on the same team.

You know an argument can be made to seize Rupert Murdock's assets and shut down Fox News since certain guests, and especially Carlson, are allowed to freely disseminate information easily confirmed as false that supports and gives comfort to our enemy. This was done in the lead up to and during WW II while Nazi sympathizing organizations like the German American Bund were dissolved. Here's an article that makes the argument. I'm personally not ready for that step but it's something to keep on the back burner. Fox deals heavily in Kremlin propaganda, and this is at odds with our national security. Here's a sample:

"Russia would never give genuine western journalists airtime. But it can always find a slot for its favourite quisling: Fox News's Tucker Carlson. He pushes out Russian propaganda lines or perhaps creates his own lies for Russia to use. Ukraine, not Russia, is the real tyranny. Nato provoked poor Vladimir Putin. The west is plotting to use biological weapons. Last week, he floated the theory that the war was not the result of an unprovoked invasion by a colonialist dictatorship but of the Biden administration's desire to avenge Donald Trump's victory in 2016.

It was a big hit in Moscow, reported BuzzFeed's Julia Davis. "State TV propagandists loved it so much, Russia's 60 Minutes included it not once, but twice in their evening broadcast – neatly bookended by the Kremlin's war propaganda."

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...urdochs-assets

[Paulie97]

Based on a wealth of research See imbedded links within the article. Here's a sample.

"Despite Putin's delusions of self-sufficiency and import substitution, Russian domestic production has come to a complete standstill with no capacity to replace lost businesses, products and talent; the hollowing out of Russia's domestic innovation and production base has led to soaring prices and consumer angst.

—As a result of the business retreat, Russia has lost companies representing 40% of its GDP, reversing nearly all of three decades' worth of foreign investment and buttressing unprecedented simultaneous capital and population flight in a mass exodus of Russia's economic base.

—Putin is resorting to patently unsustainable, dramatic fiscal and monetary intervention to smooth over these structural economic weaknesses, which has already sent his government budget into deficit for the first time in years and drained his foreign reserves even with high energy prices – and Kremlin finances are in much, much more dire straits than conventionally understood."

https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/chie...-and-sanctions

[Paulie97]

I agree with this to some extent. The Europeans clearly have the wherewithal to defend themselves and tend to their corner of the world. The Europeans should take primary ownership of NATO.

We are involved in NATO for the simple reason to support our allies while we are an economic powerhouse and by far the primary nuclear power. Putin would love nothing more than for us to withdraw so he can further run roughshod in his region of the world. As to China, their nuclear capabilities are far less than that of Russia. Russia's is actually greater than the US by a small margin. China also hasn't been involved in a war on it's own since the Sino-Vietnamese conflict of 1979. They are primarily about economic advancement, and keeping good relations with a united US / EU will trump any lip service given to Russia.

You might not notice, but I don't care for black & white narratives in global analysis. I almost always find it is too simplistic and is used to reach a preconceived perspective. I'm also not one of these guys thinking the Ukraine is easily going to run Russia out, trigger the end of the Putin regime and it will be a great ending to the conflict.

Well there's a respectable endeavor which involves seeking to see all sides. Then there's a wishy washiness that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. That's what I see a lot with your posts on this subject and this attempted love in with Elvis, a person who openly supported the violence against the US capital saying it "should have been worse," along with stolen election lies and is an apologist for Vladimir Putin. But I'm afraid this one is the closest we've seen to black and white since Hitler. We have a tyrant manufacturing justifications for invasions and land grabs while targeting, murdering, executing civilians, with deportations and "filtering centers" / concentration camps for those who survive. There was no provocation whatsoever. The only threat was the interest in democracy in a country he sought to control.

As to anyone thinking Ukraine is going to have an easy time on the battlefield and live happily ever after, who the fuck has made that argument? Rofl Given the propensity toward straw men you and Elvis should get a long well. Enjoy the love in.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

P.S. Jmsuttr's posts are missed, but I can see why he dropped out. The pro-Russia crowd for whatever reason is very much the majority in the free for all threads on this pay for sex site, whatever that means. Going in circles with them daily, and for no pay is hardly worth the effort. Thankfully such traitors are very much the minority in the US, Western Europe, and certainly in NATO Eastern Euro countries. Ultimately that's what's most important.

[DramaFree11]

Elderly flee press gangs.

Ukrainian nursing home operators are reporting a surge in walk-offs due to elders' fears that Zelensky's increasingly desperate recruiting efforts will target them next.

75-year-old retiree Cadger Starets, who recently went AWOL from the Kladovyshche Nursing Home in Kiev, explained during an interview at an undisclosed location: "They're already grabbing 50-year-olds off the streets, beaches, shopping malls, 'checkpoints, gas stations and other public places. ' Looks like they're coming for us next. ".

Specifically, Zelensky said, old folks who are wheelchair-bound or severely mobility-impaired will be exempt. Those using walkers or canes, however, may still be drafted, as well as those unable to control excretory functions: "All of our troops lose control of excretory functions during Russian artillery strikes, so that shouldn't be an issue. " Likewise, dementia will not be an obstacle to induction to military service: "If it doesn't stop you from being president of the United States, it shouldn't stop you from dying on the front lines of a stupid, utterly unnecessary war. "

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2022/0...nursing-homes/

Too funny!! It might actually be True.

[PedroMorales]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP2wPJ51pdw

American filth are looking to have a drug tsarina and a spy released. One of the reasons Americans (and Israel, two cheeks) are the filth of the world. The spammers here are the reason 1. The moderator has these quarantined threads; 2. These quarantined threads are stupid shit. Unless Russia gets a favourable deal, these American criminals should pay in full for their crimes. Americans do not belong in Europe, except in gulags.

[Paulie97]

It's time to torpedo another piece of Russo propaganda while we're at it. The claim Russia was given assurances of no NATO expansion at the fall of the Berlin Wall is nonsense. For one thing the Warsaw Pact was still in place so there would have been no point in discussing the fates of nations beyond Germany. Such was never on the table. The subject never came up as Mikail Gorbachev confirmed. The subject of NATO's enlargement "was not discussed at all. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either. " Troop deployment in the former East Germany was all that was considered.

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-...he-east-177085

This issue has been covered a number of times before on the thread, however since there's always Johnny come latelys who show up with the same specious arguments that were shot down in the past. It thus has to be done all over again. Such is the circular nature of political discussions for anyone that stays in them for any length time.

But it is important to state again, for anyone who wishes to turn it into a referendum on Biden and Democrats that support for Ukraine is quite bi-partisan, with only 11 Republican senators voting against the latest aid package to Ukraine. Therefore most Republican lawmakers aren't buying Russian propaganda and aren't letting Tucker Carlson do their thinking for them. That's a very good thing and gives cause for hope for American democracy.