Seeking Arrangements

[FilthyBeaver]

Seems like I say this a lot but there are just as many situations as there are girls. Everybody has different motivations and it's hard to generalize. A family member very close to me is very successful, was married to a guy nowhere near as but his family had real money. He was expected to provide her with a monthly allowance. It was a cultural thing, she didn't need it and he didn't care because it was dad's money. She was very particular, wanted the best of everything and deserved it in her mind because she's intelligent, works really hard and can afford it with ot without him. Marriage didn't work because he wanted a simpler life or didn't have the ambition, didn't want the bells and whistles and 5 star whatever. I don't think she considers herself a victim and I haven't had this particular conversation with her but I suspect she realizes she's made some personal decisions that have affected her overall happiness. Almost too old to have a kid now and I know she wanted one. No one to vacation with and come home (to her beautiful home) to. In many ways our lives are parallel but I never wanted kids and my house is a panty dropper. That is until the day comes that no amount of tangible pluses overcome my lack of physical / mental appeal. Age will always catch up with us sooner or later. Dowrys are also still very common, from man to woman, so for an average guy to bag a legitimately successful woman can be very difficult in my particular example. He needs to prove he's worthy even though the vast majority of unions are purely symbolic, the dowry needs to be displayed in public to save face even though it's generally just given back to the couple by the woman's family.

I have another theory. How's this? It's the story they need to tell themselves to explain their existence.

A girl who says she's unhappily single approaching middle age because she squandered her youth and looks, and is simply no longer as attractive to guys her age is a girl who is being honest. But damn that's a hard hard reality and life story chapter to confront daily.

Enter the narrative. No, she's single because she's strong and powerful and most men just can't handle a strong powerful woman like her. She's gets to play the role of noble victim in this story.

Think that might be it?

[Gfefan]

I am not willing to get into this debate / discussion / opinion. Whatever you may call it.

I am 200% certain seeking is quid pro quo as far as I am concerned. It could mean something else for someone else but that's his prerogative. I have no issues with that. Neither should I have an opinion about it. His life, his money, his sugar babes. Let him do whatever he wants. Unless someone asks for advice, I don't offer that.

Me saying "I thought. " doesn't mean that I really think so. It's a polite way of reminding the girl while leaving the door open for her to respond with what she thinks. To me, my politeness has given me more pussy than my wallet.

But, as you can see, I can stand firm when it counts. Including this response.

I really do not have an ax to grind on this topic. It's just a minor topic for me. But it's germane to the discussion.

This is an almost perfect example of the point I've been making about the intersection of delusion and desire on both sides. The words "I thought that we" are the hallmark of so many conversations recounted here.

[AmericanPi]

Got a theory about this. It seems to me, around director level. Nobody tells them no. Their idea is stupid, their shit don't stink, etc. Well the wife (or husband) didn't get that memo and still expects the trash taken out, dishes washed, dog walked, whatever. That's a very big reason why their are so many affluent divorces. It's not just physical and mental changes that occur over time. There's a large social and socioeconomic factor. Power at work is very intoxicating..

I have another theory. How's this? It's the story they need to tell themselves to explain their existence.

A girl who says she's unhappily single approaching middle age because she squandered her youth and looks, and is simply no longer as attractive to guys her age is a girl who is being honest. But damn that's a hard hard reality and life story chapter to confront daily.

Enter the narrative. No, she's single because she's strong and powerful and most men just can't handle a strong powerful woman like her. She's gets to play the role of noble victim in this story.

Think that might be it?

[AmericanPi]

that means we have to rethink financials".

I responded "Ouch. I thought we both enjoyed the non-transactional nature of our arrangement last time we met. ". She goes "well, I have to come to you, commute time and whole night. It adds up, you know".

I really do not have an ax to grind on this topic. It's just a minor topic for me. But it's germane to the discussion.

This is an almost perfect example of the point I've been making about the intersection of delusion and desire on both sides. The words "I thought that we" are the hallmark of so many conversations recounted here.

[Elvis 2008]

I have no qualm with you. You're a core contributor and interlocutor here. People like you keep this thread alive and interesting. This reply is just because it's an interesting conversation. And it's ok to see things differently.

I feel the same way. There was no malice intended in my post, just a different perspective. I want everyone to get the best experiences possible out of seeking.

Where I think we see things differently is the notion you have that you can effectively suss out people's intentions with careful observation. I don't think that jibes with how duplicitous humans really can be. Half the men on here are married for gods sake. I have a whole alternate reality going on, complete with phone numbers, accounts, password protected apps, and the like. I might be further on the duplicity spectrum than most, but I assume as a baseline that most people ID meet on Seeking reside on that spectrum too. These relationships usually start with pseudonyms and google voice numbers and might become more transparent from there. But again, at the core of it, a girl selling beauty and sex for resources, and a guy giving resources for that access, are engaged in a relationship that's far more likely than not to be an exchange of fantasy and not two people living at the intersection of their respective unvarnished realities.

Okay, I see where you are coming from. Steve wrote something about "keeping the fantasy alive", and I am like I am beyond a fantasy, but when you are married, and you want to ramp up the intensity, it needs to be a fantasy.

In my case, when I was married, I only had sugar babies in the USA and I cannot recall any time getting burned trusting them. They were usually pretty hot and had other guys more than willing to step into my shoes. I guess you could say I set limits and told the women I was married and we all knew how far the relationship could be stretched and did not go beyond that. There were issues with other sugar babies I had but for some reason not with any of the women I met off of seeking.

Of course, there were the ones who showed themselves to be untrustworthy early on and when you talk places like Colombia or other countries where there are so many attractive women and so much less money, getting a well to do sugar daddy replacement is much harder. I could see being more skeptical with trusting a woman in places like that.

But I had sugar babies in other countries and for the most part, my trust was more than reciprocated, and it led to incredibly fun and intimate times.

I get it though. It is not easy to pick out what people / women to trust. I can see guys saying trust no one to protect themselves. I am just saying IMO it is not always the best way to be and certainly not the only way to be.

[FilthyBeaver]

Just a mild reminder of the quid pro quo thing. Not that I'm any more desirable or have anymore game but I've never given more than a "standard" date if they spend the night. I've willingly over paid and they're expected the same thing later but I generally move on.

Working on my upcoming schedule.

The squirter I met earlier was trying to meet me. I technically could meet her and was exploring options. I floated "Hey, how about this time I get a nice hotel with sauna and stuff and we spend the whole night?

She goes "of course. That would be nice but that means we have to rethink financials".

I responded "Ouch. I thought we both enjoyed the non-transactional nature of our arrangement last time we met. ". She goes "well, I have to come to you, commute time and whole night. It adds up, you know".

Amd, I am like "Ok. It is a bit of an effort for me to divert from my path and come see you. So, do ourselves a favor Go ahead and plan your day / night without me in the picture. I will continue on my path".

Boom. Done. She could have made 300, squirtrd a ton and enjoyed all the other perks. This whole shit of "my time is valuable" is so delusional.

[FilthyBeaver]

Got a theory about this. It seems to me, around director level. Nobody tells them no. Their idea is stupid, their shit don't stink, etc. Well the wife (or husband) didn't get that memo and still expects the trash taken out, dishes washed, dog walked, whatever. That's a very big reason why their are so many affluent divorces. It's not just physical and mental changes that occur over time. There's a large social and socioeconomic factor. Power at work is very intoxicating.

I'd say 40% of the director level / business owners I know are divorced and I doubt that would change any time soon. Thank God we can trade in omfir a newer model with less miles. Much more difficult to do the same.

This really did go off on a tangent, sorry. Sometimes when you write on your phone it goes in weird places. But this is interesting.

The problem with some, not all, of the career women I know (and in my circle I know a lot) is that they've convinced themselves they're single because guys can't handle a powerful woman like them and the men are intimidated. Or they are telling themselves that and hoping men believe it. I'm telling you it's such a thin veneer. I worked in Fortune 500 with some of these ladies and have known them almost 2 decades. The problem isn't that guys are intimidated by them (I myself am married to a successful professional with an advanced degree from a top 10 university). The problem is that the whole "guys are intimidated by a stronger sau 40powerful female like me" thing is boring and there's no way to honestly coexist with someone whose core life narrative orbits around that idea. You either have to pretend to honor and celebrate it (despite seeing how thin it is, how desperate some of these women are) or you are cast as the villain in the story, a guy who just can't handle such a strong woman. You know what I do? Honestly? I pretend to honor and celebrate it. And these women love me. They are the ones asking if I have friends like me I can set them up with. But inside I have moral and cognitive dissonance because I really just want to tell them they'd be far more attractive as partners if they'd just be honest about their needs and wants, which requires some vulnerability.

Which brings us back to Seeking. I see a similar form of delusion here at times. Not from you, FB, but from some. It's true that I don't know the people here personally and there are exceptions to every rule. But let's be honest, everybody thinks they're an exception.

[Gfefan]

Working on my upcoming schedule.

The squirter I met earlier was trying to meet me. I technically could meet her and was exploring options. I floated "Hey, how about this time I get a nice hotel with sauna and stuff and we spend the whole night?

She goes "of course. That would be nice but that means we have to rethink financials".

I responded "Ouch. I thought we both enjoyed the non-transactional nature of our arrangement last time we met. ". She goes "well, I have to come to you, commute time and whole night. It adds up, you know".

Amd, I am like "Ok. It is a bit of an effort for me to divert from my path and come see you. So, do ourselves a favor Go ahead and plan your day / night without me in the picture. I will continue on my path".

Boom. Done. She could have made 300, squirtrd a ton and enjoyed all the other perks. This whole shit of "my time is valuable" is so delusional.

[AmericanPi]

AP, do you see what you are doing? You are injecting YOUR reality into people you do not even know.

Ok, but there are con men who are not on seeking too.

The issue I have with stereotyping with seeking is people say the women on seeking are all about the money. That is fine, but where is the world where women are not all about the money? Because IMO that world does not exist.

And with men with wealth, how would they get wealthy if they were not able to spot scam artists?

I have no qualm with you. You're a core contributor and interlocutor here. People like you keep this thread alive and interesting. This reply is just because it's an interesting conversation. And it's ok to see things differently.

I only kept a portion of your reply so it doesn't take up all that space. I agree with the notion that men and women all exist on some spectrum. It's an obvious point to me that you can't paint everyone with the same brush. But parsing details on a chat board is hard.

Where I think we see things differently is the notion you have that you can effectively suss out people's intentions with careful observation. I don't think that jibes with how duplicitous humans really can be. Half the men on here are married for gods sake. I have a whole alternate reality going on, complete with phone numbers, accounts, password protected apps, and the like. I might be further on the duplicity spectrum than most, but I assume as a baseline that most people ID meet on Seeking reside on that spectrum too. These relationships usually start with pseudonyms and google voice numbers and might become more transparent from there. But again, at the core of it, a girl selling beauty and sex for resources, and a guy giving resources for that access, are engaged in a relationship that's far more likely than not to be an exchange of fantasy and not two people living at the intersection of their respective unvarnished realities.

[AmericanPi]

Not really related to seeking but ….. It takes a a certain level of ambition, aggressiveness, bitchiness whatever you want to call it and most men's egos can't deal with it..

This really did go off on a tangent, sorry. Sometimes when you write on your phone it goes in weird places. But this is interesting.

The problem with some, not all, of the career women I know (and in my circle I know a lot) is that they've convinced themselves they're single because guys can't handle a powerful woman like them and the men are intimidated. Or they are telling themselves that and hoping men believe it. I'm telling you it's such a thin veneer. I worked in Fortune 500 with some of these ladies and have known them almost 2 decades. The problem isn't that guys are intimidated by them (I myself am married to a successful professional with an advanced degree from a top 10 university). The problem is that the whole "guys are intimidated by a strong powerful female like me" thing is boring and there's no way to honestly coexist with someone whose core life narrative orbits around that idea. You either have to pretend to honor and celebrate it (despite seeing how thin it is, how desperate some of these women are) or you are cast as the villain in the story, a guy who just can't handle such a strong woman. You know what I do? Honestly? I pretend to honor and celebrate it. And these women love me. They are the ones asking if I have friends like me I can set them up with. But inside I have moral and cognitive dissonance because I really just want to tell them they'd be far more attractive as partners if they'd just be honest about their needs and wants, which requires some vulnerability.

Which brings us back to Seeking. I see a similar form of delusion here at times. Not from you, FB, but from some. It's true that I don't know the people here personally and there are exceptions to every rule. But let's be honest, everybody thinks they're an exception.

[FilthyBeaver]

Not really related to seeking but interesting nonetheless. A successful middle aged women past her physical prime is rarely going to settle for hot stud monkey boy as a long term commitment. Any middle aged man in the same boat isn't looking for someone his own age (with very few exceptions). When I was a corporate drone I knew a few, frankly the men all had personality flaws they were able to hide from the women they connected with before she knew what she got herself into. I'm willing to bet most are divorced by now but I don't keep in touch with any and I have no clue. I know some very successful women, acquaintances and family members, but I wouldn't introduce them to anyone I know even though I want the best for my family. It takes a a certain level of ambition, aggressiveness, bitchiness whatever you want to call it and most men's egos can't deal with it. I know them well enough to know that their personality quirks are not conducive to long term relationships (at least to anybody I know). Like you, I play coy and don't get involved.

I agree with everything you wrote. And I'm quite alright with what being on Seeking means for me and the girls I bang there. I'm fully aware girls are trading their sexual appeal today because it's a fading asset. I actually admire girls who have the foresight to embrace this earlier in their lives, and bag a rich guy while doing so doesn't mean dating their dad. You know who I'm talking about. The smartest hot sorority girls in my college got linked early and hard to a guy who was clearly on the way up (Eg dad is a CEO and son will take over one day). The dumbest ones got drunk through their twenties and got desperate by 35. I am now middle aged and I have female friends who are still single at my age and it's sad. They always, always ask if I have friends for them. And I always play coy and think 2 things. First, some of my friends know about my whoring and there's no way I'm cross pollinating that into another friend group. And second, none of my friends my age want to date women their age. Some of these women spent their prime years trying to be girl bosses or whatever and talking about how they don't need a man, only to wake up at 45 desperate, unhappily childless, and with poor romantic prospects. I have no idea how I got on this tangent, but I'm writing on the phone, so I'm just going to hit upload.

[Elvis 2008]

The minute you start living in a narrative that doesn't map to reality is the minute you expose yourself.

AP, do you see what you are doing? You are injecting YOUR reality into people you do not even know.

I'm not saying seeking girls are conmen, but this is how conmen work. Nobody ever thinks they're a mark.

Ok, but there are con men who are not on seeking too.

The issue I have with stereotyping with seeking is people say the women on seeking are all about the money. That is fine, but where is the world where women are not all about the money? Because IMO that world does not exist.

And with men with wealth, how would they get wealthy if they were not able to spot scam artists?

If you are saying do not trust the women at all, then all the women on seeking are hookers. I was not always right, but I think you need to have a scale of trust and put the women in the right category just like you do with escorts. I am not worried about hiding my wallet with a well reviewed $1000 an hour hooker, but I am with a street walker.

When I met women, I was analyzing what I wanted from them, how much I could trust them, and if they suited my needs. So the lowest form is you have straight up sex for money with no affection. Then there were friendly acquaintances where I knew a little about their life and there was some affection but it was mostly money for sex. That was kind of like a short term sugar baby, more trustworthy than a straight up hooker but more time and money would not mean more intimacy.

Then you have the deeper friendships with deeper trust. You trust keeping your wallet out. You trust going bare. You trust they are going to show up. You trust them that if you give them an monthly allowance they are not going to be hounding you for more money every time you meet. You trust that they are not going to have frequent costly emergencies. You trust when you see them they are going to sexually care for you. If you give more time and money, there is appreciation versus a scheme to get more. This is a real sugar baby, and it is not common. It is a true friendship, and I did not find many women on the site that were this trustworthy whom I really wanted to befriend.

Even rarer is when you have near complete trust and you have a woman in the GF / wife zone. That is the rarest of all.

I think what you are trying to say is that guys delude themselves into trusting the women too much early on. Guys are so anxious to have that GF / wife / SB woman that they overlook the red flags and get burned, and that does happen. It has happened to me many times.

But I do not think the answer to that is to tell yourself all women on seeking are hookers or con women.

I think you tell yourself to slow down. Do the shit tests. Get outside opinions on the woman. Make her earn that trust versus just giving it to her. Don't ignore the red flags even though part of your brain that wants that special woman is telling you to bury them.

The issue I have with calling all the women on seeking con artists and hookers, and there is no doubt there are many there, is that you miss out on the very best women there.

[AmericanPi]

I'm not arguing or upset. A girl once told me that the appeal of the site is the lack of pretense. Everyone knows why they're there. Girls are there for "help" in whatever form that means, usually money. We're there for, well, whatever. I'm seeing more profiles that say, "I'm open to what happens over time. " That's girl code for "I'm ready to bag a rich husband. " Not on a typical 21 yr old profile but late twenties / early 30's who's biological clocks are ticking, family or social pressure, etc. A good friend with two gorgeous daughters once told me that he taught his girls early on that there are nice rich guys and nice poor guys, so they may as well get a rich one. My point is there are girls using that site as a (mostly traditional) dating sight. Probably not in your 18-23 yr old filter range but I am seeing this in profiles of more, mature (readers older) girls. There are just too many reasons to generalize. I will certainly concede that if tye sugar disappears the chance of them stuck around is close to nil, at best maybe they give you the occasional sympathy bang but they're definitely shopping for another reliable source in the meantime time.

I agree with everything you wrote. And I'm quite alright with what being on Seeking means for me and the girls I bang there. I'm fully aware girls are trading their sexual appeal today because it's a fading asset. I actually admire girls who have the foresight to embrace this earlier in their lives, and bag a rich guy while doing so doesn't mean dating their dad. You know who I'm talking about. The smartest hot sorority girls in my college got linked early and hard to a guy who was clearly on the way up (Eg dad is a CEO and son will take over one day). The dumbest ones got drunk through their twenties and got desperate by 35. I am now middle aged and I have female friends who are still single at my age and it's sad. They always, always ask if I have friends for them. And I always play coy and think 2 things. First, some of my friends know about my whoring and there's no way I'm cross pollinating that into another friend group. And second, none of my friends my age want to date women their age. Some of these women spent their prime years trying to be girl bosses or whatever and talking about how they don't need a man, only to wake up at 45 desperate, unhappily childless, and with poor romantic prospects. I have no idea how I got on this tangent, but I'm writing on the phone, so I'm just going to hit upload.

[FilthyBeaver]

I'm not arguing or upset. A girl once told me that the appeal of the site is the lack of pretense. Everyone knows why they're there. Girls are there for "help" in whatever form that means, usually money. We're there for, well, whatever. I'm seeing more profiles that say, "I'm open to what happens over time. " That's girl code for "I'm ready to bag a rich husband. " Not on a typical 21 yr old profile but late twenties / early 30's who's biological clocks are ticking, family or social pressure, etc. A good friend with two gorgeous daughters once told me that he taught his girls early on that there are nice rich guys and nice poor guys, so they may as well get a rich one. My point is there are girls using that site as a (mostly traditional) dating sight. Probably not in your 18-23 yr old filter range but I am seeing this in profiles of more, mature (readers older) girls. There are just too many reasons to generalize. I will certainly concede that if tye sugar disappears the chance of them stuck around is close to nil, at best maybe they give you the occasional sympathy bang but they're definitely shopping for another reliable source in the meantime time.

I actually wasn't talking about you. But I do want to say that when you say these things that follow:

I own a business that practically everybody in the world needs one or multiple times and I'd do her "favors" when necessary.

The girl who talked about getting married would have stuck around if I were willing to as the bigger prize are all my assets not a few hundred bucks when we screw.

You realize those things are what I'm talking about right? You're just using different words and different forms of currency.

Look I'm not judging anyone on this forum (yes I am). I just think it's important to be lucid and clear eyed about what's what. Pretense isn't free. The minute you start living in a narrative that doesn't map to reality is the minute you expose yourself.

I'm not saying seeking girls are conmen, but this is how conmen work. Nobody ever thinks they're a mark. And not all conmen are awful horrible people. I've known many girls who do this kind of work (yes it's work; not all work requires a pay stub or a time sheet) for the best reasons including needing to take care of ailing parents, kids at home, or to fund a business venture so they can stop sucking old dick for 3000 dollars a month. But strip away all the embellishments and at the end of the day 99 percent of this reduces to an older guy exchanging financial resources of some sort to a girl trading her her youth and beauty in the form of sexual exchange. I'm ok with it. Just don't delude yourself into thinking the extra variables change the equation.

[AmericanPi]

I can agree with most but I saw a girl for a few months and never gave her a dime. I own a business that practically everybody in the world needs one or multiple times and I'd do her "favors" when necessary. I cut it off with her because she was bat shit crazy.

Feelings do develop on both sides, should they instantly disappear when the quid pro you is gone? Depends. 90% of the time I'd say yes but the girl who talked about getting married would have stuck around if I were willing to as the bigger prize are all my assets not a few hundred bucks when we screw.

Some just want a good time at a nice restaurant or a show that guys their age just can't do. I've heard this more than once. That doesn't mean we're monogamous and I've never made such a request / demand because I'm realistic about what this is. But when they start crying during a breakup it's more than a transaction.

I had a girl seem to take genuine pleasure in breaking it off with me, she knew I was emotional invested. It was early in my seeking career and she did it in a very public place so I couldn't go nuts (not my style anyway). Aside from that I get what I want, real, fake, delusional, etc. From that site.

I actually wasn't talking about you. But I do want to say that when you say these things that follow:

I own a business that practically everybody in the world needs one or multiple times and I'd do her "favors" when necessary.

The girl who talked about getting married would have stuck around if I were willing to as the bigger prize are all my assets not a few hundred bucks when we screw.

You realize those things are what I'm talking about right? You're just using different words and different forms of currency.

Look I'm not judging anyone on this forum (yes I am). I just think it's important to be lucid and clear eyed about what's what. Pretense isn't free. The minute you start living in a narrative that doesn't map to reality is the minute you expose yourself.

I'm not saying seeking girls are conmen, but this is how conmen work. Nobody ever thinks they're a mark. And not all conmen are awful horrible people. I've known many girls who do this kind of work (yes it's work; not all work requires a pay stub or a time sheet) for the best reasons including needing to take care of ailing parents, kids at home, or to fund a business venture so they can stop sucking old dick for 3000 dollars a month. But strip away all the embellishments and at the end of the day 99 percent of this reduces to an older guy exchanging financial resources of some sort to a girl trading her her youth and beauty in the form of sexual exchange. I'm ok with it. Just don't delude yourself into thinking the extra variables change the equation.