Seeking Arrangements

[Elvis 2008]

What's the main takeaway that we should take from your recent posts? Are you suggesting that we can get arrested for SB / SD relationships? Sorry that I'm dense.

Honestly, MW, I was just going through why I went from escorts to sugar daddy to international sugar daddy, and I was hoping others would tell their story.

As for LE, LE came right out and said if you are paying for sex, you are supporting human trafficking. That was why DAs said Kraft should be jailed for 5 years.

It would be hard to sell a college coed as being trafficked and I have not heard too much about LE going after the SD SB thing, but it is crazy right now. It is sad because for decades LE left us alone if no one got hurt. Even the sex workers are griping this is not helping them.

But I am not interested in this topic. I just saw things had come to a stand still and I am interested in why other guys became sugar daddies.

[Pessimist]

Mongerer,

Whenever I talk about this subject, I run into denial on the part of men. For some reason, men who engage in prostitution think of themselves as law abiding citizens instead of the criminals they really are. In fact, you probably wince at me just using that word.

For law enforcement (LE), there was not a lot of success prosecuting people for a victimless crime. Until there was active promotion of a campaign against human trafficking. Now all of sudden there were victims, and men were the perpetrators.

Most white people, and I am white, are happy thinking the police / law enforcement are there to protect them, when they arrest someone there is good cause, when the police do use violence, they are justified. Again, there is the thinking the police like me and would never shoot me because I am a law abiding citizen, and I get it. People are happy believing that, and they attack anyone who bursts their bubble. If that is the case, quit reading right here..

Too many generalizations. Also, you continually assume there is something or someone called typical monger, and that you know what that typical monger thinks. It is almost as if you think you are some objective, wise observer standing apart from the rest of the crowd passing judgement on them. Sorry to burst your bubble, you are also part of the typical monger crowd, whatever that means.

Most of us, or many of us anyway, know SB / SD is borderline gray area. Some of us also use escort services in US, some use street walkers, some used Craig's list, backpage, paid strippers for sex, what not. People do risky things. Some times they are aware of the risk, compute the risk and are accepting of the risk reward trade off. Sometimes, they underestimate the risk. Sometimes, their brain stops working and they do dumb stuff. When we are away from the scene, sitting alone in front of the computer and typing, many of us are able to analyze this in more cold calculated fashion and evaluate the risk.

It is up to each person to manage his own risk when it comes to SB / SD stuff or other forms of escorting. If you are not comfortable with that risk, go to Germany and fuck girls in FKKs which is quite legal. Or any other place that floats your boat.

But there is no need for lectures. The reality is that mongers are well traveled, hardcore bunch and know the realities of the world. You can even say jaded.

[Nounce]

Steve, all of your advice and suggestions are SPOT on!

Elvis, I agree with a lot of what you said. I know many MP gals in the states, and none of them were trafficked. When they get arrested, they say they're were forced into the business because they don't want to admit they voluntarily entered this line of work. But I'm not saying that trafficking doesn't happen, of course. But I have a question for you. What's the main takeaway that we should take from your recent posts? Are you suggesting that we can get arrested for SB / SD relationships? Sorry that I'm dense.

The women work in MPs with tourist visas usually are rotated from city to city arranged by an organization. Although they are not forced. The law enforcement is going to find a way to apply or interpret the law in a way that considers the arrangement as sex trafficking.

If a group is determined to stop something but can't change the existing law, they are going to do it by creating another law to achieve it indirectly. The example being selling sex is legal, but buying is illegal, and the case of backpage. You can also bet there is a group plotting to create another law to get the user private data collected by the big high tech companies because they can't do it like the way China does it.

The country is great that is as long as you don't get involved with the law in some way and not on the receiving end of it. Because often one will find out the law does not work the way it is intended and it is not the same as what we see on TV shows. The nicest thing when someone is poor is that no one will sue you but also no one will seek justice for you. The opposite is also true like in the case of Kraft that Elvis mentioned

And that is how our government are in deadlock all the time.

My 2 cents

[Midwestern]

Steve, all of your advice and suggestions are SPOT on!

Elvis, I agree with a lot of what you said. I know many MP gals in the states, and none of them were trafficked. When they get arrested, they say they're were forced into the business because they don't want to admit they voluntarily entered this line of work. But I'm not saying that trafficking doesn't happen, of course. But I have a question for you. What's the main takeaway that we should take from your recent posts? Are you suggesting that we can get arrested for SB / SD relationships? Sorry that I'm dense.

[Mongerer88]

No, you make unwarranted jumps in your logic and conclusions.

And you don't study actual arrests.

I think asset forfeiture and seizure is terrible. I mentioned it in my post. It is applied against those with cash earned from a supposedly illegal activity. It affects sex workers and what few remaining agencies exist. It doesn't effect Johns unless that John picks up a streetwalker in his car in certain jurisdictions. So don't pick up streetwalkers. Asset forfeiture doesn't effect the bank accounts of Johns. There isn't illegal cash there.

Kraft went to a massage parlor with several ladies working there at once. The massage parlor was under internal surveillance. Granted that was a relatively new and abusive law enforcement technique and I hope like hell that the courts continue to kick law enforcement's ass over it. But it was a commercial facility operating under a business license and the warrant was granted for surveillance as a result of supposed illegal activity occurring there that involved multiple women. Different activity than what its business license allowed That is tremendously different from the granting of a surveillance warrant for a residential location where only one lady is present at a time. Tremendously different. A commercial license in a business district is simply treated differently.

The gold standard for John safety from a law enforcement perspective is outcall to a hotel room or his residence with an escort who has her own website and who has reviews. The gold standard for escort safety from law enforcement is incall to an apartment zoned for residential purposes after the customer has been screened. They are both safe from law enforcement activities.

Sugar arrangements are even safer, but what I described above is already safe. Damn expensive and a hassle, but safe.

No-screening Backpage type encounters, massage parlors, strip joints (including the parking lot of strip joints) and certainly the streets are not safe in the USA.

But you can't take citations and arrests from one activity and extrapolate it to other activities.

And for what it is worth, I think the police go overboard on a regular basis in many areas. But that doesn't keep me from studying and thinking, and I don't take nonsense from bad 8 pm TV crime dramas and assume the police techniques shown there actually happen.

Mongerer,

Whenever I talk about this subject, I run into denial on the part of men. For some reason, men who engage in prostitution think of themselves as law abiding citizens instead of the criminals they really are. In fact, you probably wince at me just using that word.

For law enforcement (LE), there was not a lot of success prosecuting people for a victimless crime. Until there was active promotion of a campaign against human trafficking. Now all of sudden there were victims, and men were the perpetrators.

Most white people, and I am white, are happy thinking the police / law enforcement are there to protect them, when they arrest someone there is good cause, when the police do use violence, they are justified. Again, there is the thinking the police like me and would never shoot me because I am a law abiding citizen, and I get it. People are happy believing that, and they attack anyone who bursts their bubble. If that is the case, quit reading right here.

So when I show you this story about how a DEA agent just took someone's life savings, $16,000, do you defend LE and the government? And think this agent probably had a good reason? Maybe you think there was something more to this story. https://www.abqjournal.com/580107/de...-producer.html.

[Elvis 2008]

Certainly there are arrests for picking up street decoys and a few citations for going to massage parlors that are unlicensed and where sex is found to occur during sting operations, but that is rare.

Law enforcement has never had success in attacking escorts who screen, or their customers. It is a purchase of time and companionship, which is legal. Sugar arrangements are even safer legally than that.

Mongerer,

Whenever I talk about this subject, I run into denial on the part of men. For some reason, men who engage in prostitution think of themselves as law abiding citizens instead of the criminals they really are. In fact, you probably wince at me just using that word.

For law enforcement (LE), there was not a lot of success prosecuting people for a victimless crime. Until there was active promotion of a campaign against human trafficking. Now all of sudden there were victims, and men were the perpetrators.

Most white people, and I am white, are happy thinking the police / law enforcement are there to protect them, when they arrest someone there is good cause, when the police do use violence, they are justified. Again, there is the thinking the police like me and would never shoot me because I am a law abiding citizen, and I get it. People are happy believing that, and they attack anyone who bursts their bubble. If that is the case, quit reading right here.

So when I show you this story about how a DEA agent just took someone's life savings, $16,000, do you defend LE and the government? And think this agent probably had a good reason? Maybe you think there was something more to this story. https://www.abqjournal.com/580107/de...-producer.html.

What was more to the story was that it was just the tip of the iceberg. "A Washington Post investigation last year found that local, state and federal agents nationwide have seized $2. 5 billion in cash from almost 62,000 people since 2001 – without warrants or indictments. It's unknown how many got their money back. ".

The typical monger cheers on the crackdown on human trafficking. I don't. I see LE looking at all the cash in prostitution like a kid looking at candy through a glass window trying to figure out how they can get that cash, and human trafficking was the rock used to break the window.

I saw how the government operated. First, there are the brochures about human trafficking, then more brochures, then the tragic media reports of those trafficked, then the elevation of more and more media stories about trafficking, and finally we are at crisis level where "something has to be done".

Guys who had sugar babies were like we are helping women out, we would never be busted for trafficking. I tried to tell them trafficking was just the excuse. LE wanted your money and was going to shake you down using it as an excuse.

I ran into a lot of resistance. Then Robert Kraft got arrested: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/p...ibu-story.html.

"But now lawyers for the state are arguing for the first time that Kraft — charged with two misdemeanor counts of soliciting prostitution — actually committed a felony.

The latest court filing from the Attorney General's Office suggests Kraft could face a third-degree felony punishable by up to five years in prison, if the state wins its appeal of a lower court order favoring the billionaire."

LE arrested Kraft for getting a hand job and wanted to put him in jail for 5 years.

And what do you think the DAs droned about as a reason to put Kraft in jail? Supporting trafficking. Kraft was not the only one arrested, and no one was charged with trafficking, but LE wanted to stop trafficking even when in cases like this there was none.

When you are paying women cash for sex, do you think of yourself as a criminal? Do you automatically go in thinking what happened to Kraft could not happen to you?

You see with me I know when I pay for sex I am a criminal, but I do all I can to blur the lines. I know what happened to Kraft could happen to me, and I do all that I can and learn all I can so I am not a charged criminal. I get the denial but I think that is a question of putting happiness over safety. Still, people attack those who threaten their happiness, and I do not want to be attacked any more. Been there, done that.

[Steve 9696]

So since more folks are joining this thread and much of the good primer information is way back in Jan / Feb I thought I'the write a little intro to Seeking. Hope you enjoy and it helps others on their journey. Please note that this is for guys that enjoy the whole romance and simulated girlfriend thing. If you just want to find a girl to fuck there are plenty of those also.

Seeking Arrangement opened a whole new world for me -- Sugar Baby. Sugar Daddy dating. I had gotten a taste of this with Thifany (the girl from the São Paulo Boate that I flew to London for a week). I mean SBSD is really what we were doing when I flew her to London. I paid her a very reasonable allowance for the week and we just played boyfriend and girlfriend. What fun.

I came to realize through the Thifany experience that I like more than just paid sex. And in fact I love having a girlfriend. I enjoy texting each other. I enjoy that someone cares about me (even if she's pretending -- just never tell me so!) and of course I love the complete experience of dinners and dancing and just acting like real lovers. Not transactional sex partners. And SB / SD is all about this same experience. When done properly.

So how do you do it properly? I suppose this could vary widely depending on what you are after. But I am after a girl who FEELS like a girlfriend. She's affectionate, appreciates an evening above her usual stature in life, and is able to actually enjoy herself with you. She views the allowance / gift (I. E. Money!) as a bonus. Not the only thing she is after. Any girl where I feel money is the primary motivation and she will go with anyone for a high enough price, gets kicked straight to the curb. She's got to be a girlfriend first, and benefit second.

Knowing that this is the kind of girl I want to attract (and other guys I have talked to also find this persona the most attractive) there is a set of rules you have to play by. Understand that SA is NOT AT ALL like picking up hookers. It is much more like meeting a girl into a bar and seducing her to leave with you. It's just an online bar. Sure you need money, but you also need some distance game and you need to treat her with respect. If you do, you have a chance of closing the deal. However, the moment you disrespect her, she will be gone.

Most importantly, never discuss sex or money. These things will be implied and they will be done offline. Never discuss sex or money on SA and really never discuss sex at all. As soon as you are that explicit, the kind of girl you are after will feel disrespected and ghost you in no time flat.

So start with some light chat and flirt. Your opener should be something specific to her that you read in her profile -- not something generic. And ALWAYS end every message with a question. This prompts her to respond. If you don't ask a question, she will not take the initiative -- the conversation will just die. You have to drive it -- and you drive with questions. Get her to tell you a few things about herself -- what she likes to eat, her favorite wine, dog or cat person -- It doesn't really matter-- just something that will get her to engage a bit.

At some point you will establish that you like each other reasonably enough and one or the other will suggest to take the conversation off of SA and over to text. If she goes there in the first few exchanges, she is probably a hooker. If she doesn't ask for a pic pretty early on, she is probably a hooker. Often, I am the one to suggest going over to private phone text. You can keep it pretty innocuous, saying you notice she is not on often and it might be easier to connect up by text.

Once over to text, you can discuss allowance / gifts (never "her price" or "how much you charge") though some guys leave that for in person dates. Because I am a fly-in guy and want to close the deal -- I. E. Go to the room and have sex -- the very first night, I prefer to get this elephant out of the room before the date if possible. But again, you can't go straight here. Start first with how you see the date going.

I usually say something about going out and having an epic time and if the chemistry is right spending some private time (or intimate time or adult time -- insert your favorite euphemism -- but never say SEX! And ask if that sounds about right to them. Most often they will be down with this description -- I mean we are all on SA for a reason. This opens the door for the pricing discussion. I usually say something like "Of course I'the want to give you a gift. Did you have something in mind?" and the negotiation is underway. As of this writing, with A LOT of searching and false starts I'the say most big cities $400 is reasonable for a pretty girl (lots will ask more) with SF and NYC more like $500. $300 is more like it for second tier cities, and I've found a few gems at $200 (though more in the 6-7 category).

Once you have the "we are going to have sex, right" -- without saying it -- and money discussion out of the way, you should be good to go. Just keep on with the flirty texts without being too frequent, clingy or annoying and then meet up at the appointed day and time. More often than not, if you are not terribly objectionable looking, have a little bit of charm, and follow the "let's get out of here" model you might use with a regular pickup, you will end up in the room with your girl and have a rocking time.

[Midwestern]

Elvis, thanks for the mega post. A lot of what you say makes sense. In fact, the current gal that I am seeking an arrangement with said to me, "There's more to my life than men and money. In fact, men and money are a small part of my life. " To be honest, it was a bit of a revelation to me.

Someone asked about SAs in Asia. I'm in Shanghai, and I looked at the SA site several times, and each time, after spending about 30 minutes looking at the profiles, I felt exhausted. But in Shanghai, there are millions of migrant workers (people that come here from second tier Chinese cities to work). Many are single women or married women who are trying to support their kid back home. About 10 years ago, there was a senior poster in the Beijing forum who kept saying that these migrant workers were ideal targets for arrangements, PPMs, freebies, etc. I usually ignored his posts. One time, I even told him to stop posting useless info. But I now realize that he was TOTALLY right. So, since last year, I've been "seeking arrangements" with migrant workers. My friend in Singapore did the same for many years, with the Filipino maids that work in Singapore. You might ask how it's been going for me so far. And my reply is that it's been an adventure, I'm enjoying it, I'm getting laid this way, and so I'm still doing it.

Steve. A small update. There isn't much to report. I've been busy with work, and her Aunt Flo visited on Monday. We met for lunch once, which was a fucking drag, but I'm trying to boyfriend her, as you know. We also met up at the movie room again. You might recall that a movie room is like a KTV room, but instead of singing, you just rent the room to watch movies. Inside the room, there is a huge bed, and a huge screen TV. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of movies are available. The room rent is $8 per hour. We just put on a movie, and then we fool around. But we've never fucked in those rooms. It's probably not a good idea to do so. We're planning to spend the day together on Monday. Last night, she told me she shaved her pussy, for our date on Monday. She even sent me pictures and also a video of herself playing with her pussy. So, Monday looks promising. I haven't fucked her since almost 3 weeks ago. As far as "our arrangement," neither one of us has brought it up again, after we had that huge fight when I told her that I was married. My plan is to go ahead with the arrangement, but IF and ONLY IF we fuck a few times during the next few weeks. If we do, then one day I will suddenly surprise her with some money, and say it's my way of helping her out. Otherwise, I'm cutting bait. BTW, the receptionist is ignoring my texts. Oh well. I fucked her 4 times, which is not bad, but I wish she was still in the picture.

[Sky Ryder]

I have found that girls from Asian countries that we associate with lower priced pussy tend to ramp up their prices when they on seeking.com. Trying to get back on topic, has anyone had success with Asian SB pussy when travelling in Asia?

Singapore has always been high dollar but the SA gals there have a severe case of GPS for sure. Hong Kong is the same way with many of the gals, although I have had some 3-6 month SB's that were fun and reasonable. Only had one SA date in Thailand, but at it seems they really want to make sure you are in it for the long term before sex. It is still better than USA, which is the worst of all. I have a few more Asia countries to try. Looking forward to the journey.

[Steve 9696]

Thanks Elvis for the mega write up. Lots of truth in there. And there is more to it than the money with the girls I know. As I said before, an affectionate relationship first and the gifts fall naturally and without effort from that.

Slightly OT again but it's such fun if you need a diversion go to the Diva Escorts website and browse girls. Prostitution is legal in the UK and Diva has one of the best sites for window shopping. It even lists each girls services. Does she CIM? COF? It's all there. The photos are photoshopped but honestly the Good girls are the same or better in person. Been with ten (ish) of these girls and can tell you they are 100% real and you fuck in their bed. It's great fun just to shop and fantasize about a future trip.

PS we need a Midwestern update on his girl! Dude! ??

[BrizLad]

I now have two women in Mexico, six women in Colombia, and one in Brazil that are SBs or SB prospects. They send me texts all the time. My understanding in Spanish is that Te quiero which technically means I want you. It is the English equivalent of I really like you. Te amo is I love you. Of these nine, five have texted me te quiero and four have texted me Te amo. I have responded likewise if I felt that there were sincere, and I have not if I thought the proclamations were financial manipulation..

Thanks for the detailed post Elvis. In the past I have operated multiple media accounts while I have been testing some of my supposed committed SBs.

I would meet them through a traditional method on a dating site then as things got interesting and I was thinking of committing more $$ to them one of my alternate profiles would also make contact with them. It was always interesting in the mornings when they came online and each profile would in turn get from her a "Good morning" then an "I miss you".

I've been in bed as "Me1" waiting for a girl while she is in MY lounge room chatting to "Me2" lining up her date for the following day. Geez I had fun the following day knowing that she needed to be at the mall at 11 am. I had a lazy breakfast, delayed leaving for work then about 10:45 decided I would stay home and take her out for lunch. What did I learn? I learned the language that she uses when she had alternate plans.

I kept with her but at least I knew she was playing around and I did not fool myself. Two years later when it came time to end the SB relationship with her I wasn't too worried as I knew she could quickly replace me I she hadn't already.

I love your method of exposing the SB to the situation where she has to defend her relationship with you. I will have to bring that about with my next SB.

[Pessimist]

Elvis 2008,

I don't know where you get this:

"Even with the FOSTA and SESTA bullshit to fight "human trafficking", which really just resulted in a bunch of johns being jailed and financially shook down to line LE pockets. ".

There have been few, if any, "jailings" of Johns in the USA, and none at all under Fosta / Sesta.

The standard state / local law enforcement technique in the USA Was to do fake ads on Backpage and arrest guys for solicitation based on explicit texts. Certainly there are arrests for picking up street decoys and a few citations for going to massage parlors that are unlicensed and where sex is found to occur during sting operations, but that is rare.l.

Personally speaking, I see a lot of exaggerations in this thread on occasion. First of all, any type of generalizations scare me and doubt the authenticity or the objectivity of the writer. "SBs are scammers", "SBs are wonderful", "Place X is super awesome, location why is horrible" and other such sentences are quite a bit off putting. The nature of seeking.com is pretty clear. Any man and woman can register. The site checks nor verifies no info, unless one does it voluntarily. A person claiming to be a girl on that site may not be even a girl, because the site does not verify your gender. Guys have to pay $80 to $90 a month to message a girl, and it verifies your credit card is accurate but that's about it. When such a site has millions of members, what else can we expect? All it does is provide a meeting place. Anyone with some sense can figure out quickly that one has to do a lot of due diligence, that there would be scammers but also some genuine articles and with hard work comes a few good rewards. I do not see a need for any exaggerated claims, such as US is bad, country X is good, etc. Obviously, being an American and a US resident, I have done most of my sugardaddying in my city and in this country but I do travel abroad and I hit up girls abroad before I head over (because I can, the site provides contacts, why not use them?) and sometimes I get lucky abroad even in the few days I am visiting a foreign city for business. But I would not say foreign cities are easy gold mines. Even over there, if I hit up dozens of girls I get lucky with a few. One thing - seeking.com has far more popular in the US than in European cities. I can search within 50 miles of my home and SA pulls up hundreds of white girls in the <25 age group, even in the slender body category. In foreign cities, that list is a few dozen at best. I have verified this by doing such search in dozens of foreign cities (if for no reason than just to ogle girls' photos).

[Mongerer88]

Elvis 2008,

I don't know where you get this:

"Even with the FOSTA and SESTA bullshit to fight "human trafficking", which really just resulted in a bunch of johns being jailed and financially shook down to line LE pockets. ".

There have been few, if any, "jailings" of Johns in the USA, and none at all under Fosta / Sesta.

The standard state / local law enforcement technique in the USA Was to do fake ads on Backpage and arrest guys for solicitation based on explicit texts. Certainly there are arrests for picking up street decoys and a few citations for going to massage parlors that are unlicensed and where sex is found to occur during sting operations, but that is rare.

Law enforcement has never had success in attacking escorts who screen, or their customers. It is a purchase of time and companionship, which is legal. Sugar arrangements are even safer legally than that.

Fosta / Sesta is a federal law. The federal government has a very specific policy that it does not charge Johns or sex workers criminally if all parties are 18 or over. The federal government criminally pursues owners / operators when it comes to sex work. And the federal government does huge asset seizures of any entity involved in interstate sex work. But thst is far different than jailing Johns.

Many of your criticisms of the USA Are accurate, and there are plenty of reasons for a USA Guy to go overseas for sex, but your parts about law enforcement are misleading. The issues relate more to pricing than law enforcement concerns. Poorer women outside the USA Are simply more likely to exchange quality sex for a lower price, and they have more incentive to be attractive and sexual.

[Elvis 2008]

So I see no harm in digressing from time to time with information the thread readers as a whole find useful. Since this thread has been quiet recently on SA topics no harm in the diversion.

Let me just start something else up seeing as how we have diverged into mongers versus sugar daddies. Steve, you said that you did not want to do SA in Brazil because the club scene was so awesome.

You reminded me of the two reasons I wanted to be a SB. First off, the sex internationally was so much better than with escorts in the sex prison and cheaper abroad to boot. I thought it was because of cultural attitudes, but I was surprised that even in South America, where I thought being a ho was not frowned on as much, was not something women were okay with. It was just more tolerated because women needed the money.

What bugged me so much in the sex prison was the $1200 dinner date. I have no shortage of hot female sales people who were willing to hang out with me and pick up the tab so female company was not a thing of value with me. I would just be having a good time with a working girl. We would be done having sex, she was hungry and so was I, and yet there was this stupid four figure fee for eating dinner. I was like, "What idiots are paying for this?" With the SB SD relationship, we could just enjoy the meal without the woman feeling ripped off.

For the sex prison, the SA SB-SD relationship just made more sense to me. I started about ten years ago when the USA economy was way down, met some smoking hot women, and the sex with said women was as hot as I got abroad though I paid more. Sadly, SA in the sex prison now seems to be filled to the gills with scammers and the quality response rate is quite low. I did have a promising nibble here the other day though.

I talked to a lawyer about the SB-SD relationship, and he said that given how out in the open it was that he doubted there would be any prosecution of SDs. Even with the FOSTA and SESTA bullshit to fight "human trafficking", which really just resulted in a bunch of johns being jailed and financially shook down to line LE pockets, the SB-SD relationship and SA have been largely left alone by LE.

As great as the working girl sexual relationships were in the Latin countries I visited, the quality of women I have met through SA abroad has been amazing. They are truly women in the top 1%. I had a Latin beauty kind of convince me that getting engaged was a good thing. At the time, I thought I had scored. She was stunning, in great shape, and super smart. Thing is she was very selfish, and when she was caught lying, she broke up with me before I broke up with her. It took my ego down a notch. Still, I was able to follow her on social media and I saw the clusterfuck her life was with me not in it.

It was tough finding similar quality at first but since Covid hit, it has been raining 10's. The commonly held belief is that women want men their own age, want men who are attractive physically, and they only like us older men only for our money. However, the young women with me had orgasms that I could smell and see the white cum. They called and texted me without asking for money and got mad at me when I didn't text or call often enough. The engagement has given me an excuse to not commit to any of the women I have met. If they ask if I am seeing other people, I tell them I will not answer because I do not know what they are doing. I do not give away my monogamy. The only time I tell the women I am willing to pledge it is when I can watch a girl every day.

My ex swore she did not see anyone else, and I do not think she did, but wanted to show the world she was with a handsome model versus me on her social media page. She thought putting up my picture would incite negative comments and she said that she was upset enough people were calling her a gold digger.

Thing is people were calling her that because she had soured on me. I remember a cab driver saying to me after she kissed me goodbye, "You have a very pretty girlfriend. " I was like why would the guy think that versus her being a working girl, and I realized it was how she looked at me. This revelation was greatly empowering to me because I realized that my giving her money was not what caused people to think she was a gold digger. It was her shitty attitude towards me at the end of our relationship.

The working girl or gold digger shaming is huge for women, and I turned the lemons into lemonades and have used it to my advantage. After my breakup, I was seeing a Vennie 10 super model in Mexico and was getting fed up with her lack of response to my texts. I asked her if she just wanted to be pay for play or my GF / SB / Novia, and she recoiled at the thought of being a P4P hooker. I told her she was shitty with responding to my texts and calls, and she apologized and has done way better since then.

I lectured the Mexican lawyer who is a 10 about showing up on time. I told her, "You keep making plans and breaking them. I need a woman I can trust. Is that you? And she showed up on time from then on. The last time I asked her if she needed money, she refused taking it and asked, "Need money for what?

I now have two women in Mexico, six women in Colombia, and one in Brazil that are SBs or SB prospects. They send me texts all the time. My understanding in Spanish is that Te quiero which technically means I want you. It is the English equivalent of I really like you. Te amo is I love you. Of these nine, five have texted me te quiero and four have texted me Te amo. I have responded likewise if I felt that there were sincere, and I have not if I thought the proclamations were financial manipulation.

I have met six of the nine women in person. I have had sex with three without payment after the deed. For the guys saying they are just with me for money, I would ask what money?

But more importantly, if these women give off the impression that they are gold diggers to the world, I am calling them out on it. GFs pack my suitcase, give me massages, make things like clothing for me, buy me gifts, and show the world how much they care about me, and I now expect these things from these women.

The easiest thing in the world to spot is a woman in love with a man versus with him for his money. If anyone told me that these women were just after my money, I would ask them to tell that to the woman's face and see how she reacts. She better respond about how I walk on water, and that is as much if not more to protect her image as mine.

So now if any guy says to me that a woman is just after me for money, I will tell them: prove to me she is and she is gone. I have no need for working girls. I think American men have been wussified. Shit, women in the People's Republic of California can say regretting sex the next day is now rape.

But most importantly, I am now honest with myself. My ex wife shamed me so much that I was paying women just to get my ego up. I will never forget my ex getting offended at what I laughed at in a comedy. She even shamed me for how I breathed. When I told her to get a job so she had something to do besides bugging me, she threatened to kill herself. Trump gave great advice after his first wife shamed him. When asked what to do with a wife shaming her husband, he said "Dump them."

I see women even ugly women in America on SA wanting platonic relationships. Men are supposed to work for their money. Women are supposed to be given it as victims. That is the great female game. Shame us and make us feel badly and then we pay to have said women to have the shame removed. Fuck that!!

I never thought I could demand as much from SB / GF types as I have. Ironically, it was seeing my ex-wife and fiance's lives going down the tubes without me and that great female weapon of shame turned against women that has allowed me to do so.

Nothing is a bigger turn off for me then having great sex with a woman and her running for the door when we are done. Thankfully for me, those days are in the past.

[Steve 9696]

Isn't this thread WAY OT?

Yes technically this thread is about SA. But like all threads ISG is really about sharing information and learning. So I see no harm in digressing from time to time with information the thread readers as a whole find useful. Since this thread has been quiet recently on SA topics no harm in the diversion.