Seeking Arrangements

[DramaFree11]

This shit has happened a few times in a row recently. You message a girl on SA, she replies, you exchange a few words, then move the conversation to WhatsApp. You chit chat a little bit more on WA, everything moves smoothly, looks like she is interested in meeting in person. Then, a day or two later, all of a sudden you realize she blocked you for no apparent reason. The profile pic is no longer visible, and your messages can't be delivered (1 check mark). WTF? No date and the time is wasted. Anybody had the same issue recently?

It happens, that is part of the game. I no longer deal with girls that have no pictures or use the disappearing messages. They usually just waste of time.

[MiamiBoy1]

This shit has happened a few times in a row recently. You message a girl on SA, she replies, you exchange a few words, then move the conversation to WhatsApp. You chit chat a little bit more on WA, everything moves smoothly, looks like she is interested in meeting in person. Then, a day or two later, all of a sudden you realize she blocked you for no apparent reason. The profile pic is no longer visible, and your messages can't be delivered (1 check mark). WTF? No date and the time is wasted. Anybody had the same issue recently?

[Elvis 2008]

Honestly, I think it is the opposite we say you should you all the resources. (On-line, Escorts, Dating Apps, Day Game, Friends, hell whatever works use it).

Yeah, if you are serious and want quality, you use it all. I think you also need to go where the women are, and you can do that by looking at population data. My brother was messing around in Dallas eternally frustrated. He literally witnessed the massive transformation of the social scene fifteen years ago when seeking came out. Instead of a 10:1 male to female ratio in bars, overnight, it was closer to 1:1 but he was seeing these older geekier guys with young beautiful women. That was just when seeking hit it big.

He was questioning if he was the problem and went to Russia, and he was just destroying it out there and really got the importance of playing in target rich environments. When he came back to the USA, there was not the desperation he felt before, and he told the women flat out if they were not as good as he had in Russia.

My brother had this friend who was really into the Game as well. The book is okay, but it is like the Ayn Rand books where they have spawned this set of weirdos devoted to it. When I was married, I just cared about getting strange. I was having a great time with seeking fucking my brains out while they were obsessed with this dumb game shit. The amount of time and money they wasted on trying not to pay for it was staggering. The friend was a guy like a Mr. E type more interested in getting a great deal than getting laid.

Maybe I am a little sensitive to it because I heard this bullshit for years. My seeking women did not count. They were sluts. The friend wound up with a stripper and then after that an unattractive woman whose gift to the world was name dropping. My brother ended up with a woman who was a lot like my ex-wife, attractive and accomplished on the surface but bat shit crazy underneath. He was telling me his woman would never go on seeking and neither would my ex-wife but that does not mean they were quality companions. These types routinely put their men down in public, engaged in emasculating behavior, were physically violent, and would call the police when there was an argument. And while maybe at first these type of women like you for you, when it comes to divorce court, they are ALL about the money.

You tell people this and they are like oh it did not work out for you. The guys blink away the 50% divorce rate and a huge percent of the other guys are miserable. They do not get my ex was a smart professional with natural DD breasts and a 24 inch waist, and my brother's gal has this sky high IQ and is a triathlete. The chances of guys doing better than these two are really slim.

I watch the dating shows and with the women, I constantly hear you deserve better. There is no limit to what the women think they are owed, and I think that is the issue. All the women think they have to do is show up.

For me, I realized a good sex life was critical to my life and I noticed the only couples who were really happy were the ones still banging each other. Those guys did not cheat because they really had something to lose. There is all this other bullshit but if a couple is not actively having a great time in the bedroom, I know it is not going to work out.

Far from being illegitimate, I think in some ways it is better to have a seeking woman because a seeking women knows if they do not put out, the sugar relationship is done. It is like a training area in how to please a man.

It is not that hard to find quality women to fuck but a quality companion is something else. So yeah, you use everything you have at your disposal to get one because it is really tough. I think it is disgusting how other men will try to tell you the woman you have is a hooker is or out for money or some other way it does not count and their woman, even if she is inferior to yours, is legit. What guys here need to get is what those jealous assholes say does not matter. A woman will reflect how she feels. If she really cares about you or if she is all about the money her behavior will reflect that.

[Steve 9696]

I've seen quite a few in Sao Paolo that say they are either marriage minded or even go so far as to say if you're not looking for a monogamous marriage then don't bother contacting them.

I'm old enough to know that anything can happen but I've got to be really skeptical of someone overtly requesting this on a sugaring site. So what do you guys do? Some of their pics show that they are really desirable and I'm inclined to throw a bunch of money and time their way just to get them in the sack bit I can't help but think it may be futile. Thoughts? Experiences?

Don't have direct experience but two thoughts.

Monogamous and Brasileira don't go in the same sentence. Brasileiras esp the pretty ones are going to have multiple lovers. Two girls I "dated" got engaged a month or two after we fucked. So that should tell you something.

I'the go at it honestly. And say "I know you are looking for long term and I respect that. But in the meantime I think we might have a lot of fun. " Something like that. I've def had some convos this way.

[FilthyBeaver]

I've seen quite a few in Sao Paolo that say they are either marriage minded or even go so far as to say if you're not looking for a monogamous marriage then don't bother contacting them.

I'm old enough to know that anything can happen but I've got to be really skeptical of someone overtly requesting this on a sugaring site. So what do you guys do? Some of their pics show that they are really desirable and I'm inclined to throw a bunch of money and time their way just to get them in the sack bit I can't help but think it may be futile. Thoughts? Experiences?

[DramaFree11]

Elvis, I read your recent post on Bogota. I never understand why the guys that like the street girls get, so upset about SA. I do not remember any of us not telling guys not to hook up with street girls, unless they provoke us or make fun us. Honestly, I think it is the opposite we say you should you all the resources. (On-line, Escorts, Dating Apps, Day Game, Friends, hell whatever works use it).

Honestly, I think it is the opposite we suggested guys to hand out cards, and meet girls on the street. I also, talked about how my Italian Friends in Ukraine and Russia were all about the day game. They would spend hours trying to meet girls on the street, at restaurants and gyms. It was amazing to watch, and many had success, but in the end most ended up paying one way or another.

I do not care how much someone pays or how they get girls. As long as they give decent information, I would l will never say a word. Now, there are guys in Colombia and Ukraine that blatantly lie. Both places you can get hurt if you make a bad decision.

[AmericanPi]

This part hit me the most. Rich men will marry a 6 or 7 that's presentable, intelligent, loyal. Then rendezvous with 8-10's on the side. Yet the 6-7 you courted is the most expensive liability. They get the houses, cars, 100 k+ wedding, and in some countries alimony. Seeking is quite cheap; all things considered, both in time and money.

I think about this a lot. I'm married to a 5. I know I could divorce and find an 8 to bang.

But I also know my wife is an intellectual equal. I might not find her super attractive but we have long engaging conversations and she is well read and highly educated.

I am just barely mature enough to know that is hard to replace. It makes her a high value woman.

I ama also just immature enough to always need young fresh women in bed with me. The kind I stare at at the mall and then want to peel the clothes off of. And do through seeking.

And so here I am in the cycle. Just like that.

[CCRider1008]

I am in contact with a drop dead gorgeous 21 year old and she says she can't wait to be with me etc, I did do a good job of flirting with her for sure, but I can't help just thinking this seems a little too easy and wondering if I'm being setup.

For the record, she has sent me selifes, voice messages, and I'm on her instagram, and everything there looks solid.

The other thing is I messaged her once on SA and she gave me her whatsapp. I then tried to talk to her again a couple weeks later, and her whatsapp number had changed. Could that be a red flag?

Highly probable. Like Steve has articulated using SA like sites requires some work, experience navigating the bullshit and tactful yet clear communication. SA used to be a gold mine for GFE experiences with little scamming. Now it's a mix of scammers, time wasters and a few girls who are down and understand what the site if for from a man's perspective. Many girls at least in US buy into the naivety that men on the site will pay for conversation and company only. While that's part of it, I mean come -- WTF. Personally, I don't use it anymore. Don't find it be worth the time or time or reliability.

[VulcanSx]

The truth is the more socially acceptable the pussy is the more it costs. Wives cost the most, and street walkers cost the least and picking up "regular women" at bars is more emotionally and financially costly than having a SB. You are going to strike out a helluva lot more at a bar than with a SB no matter who you are.

This part hit me the most. Rich men will marry a 6 or 7 that's presentable, intelligent, loyal. Then rendezvous with 8-10's on the side. Yet the 6-7 you courted is the most expensive liability. They get the houses, cars, 100 k+ wedding, and in some countries alimony. Seeking is quite cheap; all things considered, both in time and money.

[AmericanPi]

Most of us were thinking it. Somebody had to say it. Thank you.

Frankly, I have lost track of this "debate".

Here is my simple approach:

Want a relationship, lasting as long into the future that I cannot predict? I will go to regular dating.

Want a fuck that doesn't feel like a whole girl (although technically it is), and allows me to live a fantasy life for however long it lasts. I go to SA.

I simply don't see the point in comparing and trying to draw parallels (or opposites) between the two worlds. One is real life other is fantasy life. Call it I have MPD. Who cares?

Now, anyone had a good bang off seeking of late? Please post.

[DramaFree11]

You need to get out of doing the mental masturbation thing and see the world as it is not who you imagine it to be. Let's go to the facts.

https://www.knowledgeformen.com/unde...ngarrangement/

According to the USA Census, there are roughly 113 million people in the United States between the ages of 18 and 44. And roughly 51% of this population is female.

So now, we have an estimated 60,180,000 women between the ages of 18 and 44. And of those women, roughly 6,700,000 are on Seeking Arrangement. And that number is only growing.

Take out the married woman, the women in relationships, lesbians, trans women, women who have a SD who are off the site, and add in the women who are using other sugar sites and the women doing sugar things not on line, and I think you are at one in two women looking for a SD. And based on what I have seen, most guys will take the SB half of women over the other half all day every day.

Another quote, What surprised me most about my time on Seeking Arrangement was how seemingly "normal" most of the women were. It wasn't like I was talking with uneducated women, amateur porn stars or drug addled strippers trying to earn money in between performances. Some of these women I even had mutual friends with on social media.

In fact, most of the women I met seemed like your typical "girl next door" mostly worried about their tuition, student loans, making rent or just wanted extra cash to fuel a better lifestyle. Many of them were college educated, some of them graduates from top tier universities and, in several cases, held graduate degrees.

And that is EXACTLY my experience. Here is more:

After several months of this experiment, I found that nearly 80% of the women with whom I went out would eventually bring up money between the first and third encounter, expressing their desire for a specific dollar amount or monthly allowance and they would not lower their price.

As for the other 20% of women, as long as I paid for a fun night out, the conversation of money never surfaced. Perhaps this was because I was already spending money on the date, just not directly handing it over to them.

That was my percentage in Mexico. It was a little higher in Colombia and 0% in the USA. Here is more:

But to be honest, the main reason I experienced as much (unpaid) success as I did was that I've spent the better part of a decade refining and honing my dating and social skills. Learning how to hook a woman's interest, be non-needy, pass tests, physically escalate, sexualize interactions, and create the emotionally high adventurous times that few women experienced.

Without these skills, I have no doubt that all of my interactions would have resulted in women shamelessly trying to convert me into their loyal sugar daddy and requesting a "sugar baby allowance" at the end of each date.

The bragging is nauseating, but the point holds: a man can score on seeking with game and not just money.

Back to the article:

On Tinder, Bumble or Hinge, where the dating market is skewed heavily in women's favor as the selector, most men, even successful men, are something of a disposable item on those traditional dating apps. Responses go unread for months, matches go cold in a matter of days, and, on the rare occasion you do strike up a conversation with someone whom you're attracted to, the odds of it turning into a date hover around 15% (and that's good!

Oh yeah, sign me up for that.

I want to quote this because I think it is so funny.

If you want to learn how to develop these skills and successfully date high-quality women without giving up your hard-earned income to pay a sugar baby's monthly allowance and all the expensive dinner dates then grab a copy of The Dating Playbook for Men on amazon which is the best book on the subject.

If relationships increasingly revolve around a man's wealth and his ability to provide lavish experiences, it is unlikely that men will feel motivated to engage in the necessary internal work required to sustain a meaningful relationship with a quality woman.

At that point, it is just more mental masturbation about how terrible sugar dating is. Yes, it is so much purer to give this guy your money than the women. LOL.

As for those wonderful meaningful relationships, take a look at the 8 minute mark on this video, and you have the prize at the end of the "real" relationship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcJnBM9g9SA.

Keep in mind that her marriage is in the the top half of marriages as she still is technically married, and at her age, this woman is easily in the top half with looks. She even admits to being a sugar momma where she pays for sex. And the woman before this one on the video openly says the more flowers she gets from her BF, the more blowjobs she gives him. To me, this shows that most American women are hookerish, and this author of the article is trying to sucker men into courting these hookerish women.

With seeking, you can meet loads of women and in essence are starting at third base. With "regular" dating, you are most likely to be in the dugout and you are lucky if you even get up to bat and have a swing. You can't work on your game if you do not get practice.

If you want my history, I got suckered into marriage. I was covering all the household expenses and my crazy wife was making me feel badly. I would pay women on the outside to feel good. I took my financial lumps and thought marriage was crazy and devoted myself to the sugar world, and I was very happy in that world.

I think the biggest issue with the book the game is that the goal is the one night stand and most one night stands suck. Usually one party feels horribly afterwards. Guys tend to recall their great escorts experiences too but most are bad or average. Guys think a newer woman will be better but she rarely is. You need to know what you want not just go for new.

With SBs, I got to learn what kind of woman made me happy longer term and what were my no gos and my red flags, and I said "okay if I am going to be monogamous, here is a list of qualities I would need". The list was so high that I never thought any woman could match them. There was a lot of fun and bumps along the way. That woman I thought I would never meet? Yeah, I met her.

As for what happens next with you, for a few weeks, you will sulk as you hang onto your version of reality. And then you will realize you cannot counter one thing I said factually. Not one. Then you will say eh, what is the harm in trying to get a seeking woman in bed without money? And it will take time and many dates, but you will learn what works and does not work for you, and you will eventually succeed.

And you know what you will tell yourself? I am glad I thought of the idea of getting a seeking woman in bed without paying. This is not my first rodeo with this topic.

Elvis, you are wasting your time. He will just keep arguing. Let it go, Be a better person. Nobody is learning anything from.

Him.

[Gfefan]

Frankly, I have lost track of this "debate".

Here is my simple approach:

Want a relationship, lasting as long into the future that I cannot predict? I will go to regular dating.

Want a fuck that doesn't feel like a whole girl (although technically it is), and allows me to live a fantasy life for however long it lasts. I go to SA.

I simply don't see the point in comparing and trying to draw parallels (or opposites) between the two worlds. One is real life other is fantasy life. Call it I have MPD. Who cares?

Now, anyone had a good bang off seeking of late? Please post.

"Training wheels" was the first comparison that came to my mind, too, but on second thought, it's not. More like driving a car instead of learning to ride a bicycle. You can go on a 100 sugar dates and your success rate in vanilla won't get any better. Meanwhile, seeking takes time and energy away from vanilla.

Sure, you're not needy, creepy or worried about the outcome in vanilla if you got your p4 p backup. But on the flip side, you're less motivated, less persistent, and she can probably sense that you're not that interested in her.

Going on seeking dates let's you practice for vanilla dates but isn't it better to just go on more vanilla dates? And if you are only getting a few vanillas a year then it'd be more productive to focus your efforts on improving that; seeking won't help you to get more vanilla dates.

[NoBuglyFitches]

I did not intend to stir up this much controversy with my question hah. What I meant by regular girls were girls met somewhere other than seeking. Dating apps, coffee shop, etc. I was curious if experience from seeking had helped at all since I also go on vanilla dates, but not very successfully. I think sa has been helpful for just being more comfortable on dates, knowing which topics have worked before and also escalating physically. But I also agree with NBF's comparison post, especially point 4, and that sa is like training wheels.

"Training wheels" was the first comparison that came to my mind, too, but on second thought, it's not. More like driving a car instead of learning to ride a bicycle. You can go on a 100 sugar dates and your success rate in vanilla won't get any better. Meanwhile, seeking takes time and energy away from vanilla.

Sure, you're not needy, creepy or worried about the outcome in vanilla if you got your p4 p backup. But on the flip side, you're less motivated, less persistent, and she can probably sense that you're not that interested in her.

Going on seeking dates let's you practice for vanilla dates but isn't it better to just go on more vanilla dates? And if you are only getting a few vanillas a year then it'd be more productive to focus your efforts on improving that; seeking won't help you to get more vanilla dates.

[Elvis 2008]

Isn't that your goal too: to win "top shelf women" long-term, as you put it (and tell us about it LOL!) But unlike him, you need some mental gymnastics to obscure the fact that you are paying money for it.

You need to get out of doing the mental masturbation thing and see the world as it is not who you imagine it to be. Let's go to the facts.

https://www.knowledgeformen.com/unde...ngarrangement/

According to the USA Census, there are roughly 113 million people in the United States between the ages of 18 and 44. And roughly 51% of this population is female.

So now, we have an estimated 60,180,000 women between the ages of 18 and 44. And of those women, roughly 6,700,000 are on Seeking Arrangement. And that number is only growing.

Take out the married woman, the women in relationships, lesbians, trans women, women who have a SD who are off the site, and add in the women who are using other sugar sites and the women doing sugar things not on line, and I think you are at one in two women looking for a SD. And based on what I have seen, most guys will take the SB half of women over the other half all day every day.

Another quote, What surprised me most about my time on Seeking Arrangement was how seemingly "normal" most of the women were. It wasn't like I was talking with uneducated women, amateur porn stars or drug addled strippers trying to earn money in between performances. Some of these women I even had mutual friends with on social media.

In fact, most of the women I met seemed like your typical "girl next door" mostly worried about their tuition, student loans, making rent or just wanted extra cash to fuel a better lifestyle. Many of them were college educated, some of them graduates from top tier universities and, in several cases, held graduate degrees.

And that is EXACTLY my experience. Here is more:

After several months of this experiment, I found that nearly 80% of the women with whom I went out would eventually bring up money between the first and third encounter, expressing their desire for a specific dollar amount or monthly allowance and they would not lower their price.

As for the other 20% of women, as long as I paid for a fun night out, the conversation of money never surfaced. Perhaps this was because I was already spending money on the date, just not directly handing it over to them.

That was my percentage in Mexico. It was a little higher in Colombia and 0% in the USA. Here is more:

But to be honest, the main reason I experienced as much (unpaid) success as I did was that I've spent the better part of a decade refining and honing my dating and social skills. Learning how to hook a woman's interest, be non-needy, pass tests, physically escalate, sexualize interactions, and create the emotionally high adventurous times that few women experienced.

Without these skills, I have no doubt that all of my interactions would have resulted in women shamelessly trying to convert me into their loyal sugar daddy and requesting a "sugar baby allowance" at the end of each date.

The bragging is nauseating, but the point holds: a man can score on seeking with game and not just money.

Back to the article:

On Tinder, Bumble or Hinge, where the dating market is skewed heavily in women's favor as the selector, most men, even successful men, are something of a disposable item on those traditional dating apps. Responses go unread for months, matches go cold in a matter of days, and, on the rare occasion you do strike up a conversation with someone whom you're attracted to, the odds of it turning into a date hover around 15% (and that's good!

Oh yeah, sign me up for that.

I want to quote this because I think it is so funny.

If you want to learn how to develop these skills and successfully date high-quality women without giving up your hard-earned income to pay a sugar baby's monthly allowance and all the expensive dinner dates then grab a copy of The Dating Playbook for Men on amazon which is the best book on the subject.

If relationships increasingly revolve around a man's wealth and his ability to provide lavish experiences, it is unlikely that men will feel motivated to engage in the necessary internal work required to sustain a meaningful relationship with a quality woman.

At that point, it is just more mental masturbation about how terrible sugar dating is. Yes, it is so much purer to give this guy your money than the women. LOL.

As for those wonderful meaningful relationships, take a look at the 8 minute mark on this video, and you have the prize at the end of the "real" relationship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcJnBM9g9SA.

Keep in mind that her marriage is in the the top half of marriages as she still is technically married, and at her age, this woman is easily in the top half with looks. She even admits to being a sugar momma where she pays for sex. And the woman before this one on the video openly says the more flowers she gets from her BF, the more blowjobs she gives him. To me, this shows that most American women are hookerish, and this author of the article is trying to sucker men into courting these hookerish women.

With seeking, you can meet loads of women and in essence are starting at third base. With "regular" dating, you are most likely to be in the dugout and you are lucky if you even get up to bat and have a swing. You can't work on your game if you do not get practice.

If you want my history, I got suckered into marriage. I was covering all the household expenses and my crazy wife was making me feel badly. I would pay women on the outside to feel good. I took my financial lumps and thought marriage was crazy and devoted myself to the sugar world, and I was very happy in that world.

I think the biggest issue with the book the game is that the goal is the one night stand and most one night stands suck. Usually one party feels horribly afterwards. Guys tend to recall their great escorts experiences too but most are bad or average. Guys think a newer woman will be better but she rarely is. You need to know what you want not just go for new.

With SBs, I got to learn what kind of woman made me happy longer term and what were my no gos and my red flags, and I said "okay if I am going to be monogamous, here is a list of qualities I would need". The list was so high that I never thought any woman could match them. There was a lot of fun and bumps along the way. That woman I thought I would never meet? Yeah, I met her.

As for what happens next with you, for a few weeks, you will sulk as you hang onto your version of reality. And then you will realize you cannot counter one thing I said factually. Not one. Then you will say eh, what is the harm in trying to get a seeking woman in bed without money? And it will take time and many dates, but you will learn what works and does not work for you, and you will eventually succeed.

And you know what you will tell yourself? I am glad I thought of the idea of getting a seeking woman in bed without paying. This is not my first rodeo with this topic.

[FilthyBeaver]

At my age I have neither the constitution or drive to date everyday, platonic, sexual, or otherwise. Some of you would consider me young and some, old. Seeing my SB at home once a week, maybe 3 x / mo works for me. When I'm mongering elsewhere on the planet, some strange every 2/3 days is about right, maybe slightly less (or more if I find someone I want to see more than once or have good chemistry with).

(And by the way, FilthyBeaver just reported $300-1500 per date; that's $100-200 K a year to have sex every day!

This debate is starting to feel a tad less cordial, so it's time for me to leave this topic. Thanks for your posts; they helped me clear up my own thinking on all this. I look forward to your parting thoughts if any.

GoingDumb: I will post my $02 on using sugar to get better at vanilla.