Seeking Arrangements

[Gfefan]

Frankly, I have lost track of this "debate".

Here is my simple approach:

Want a relationship, lasting as long into the future that I cannot predict? I will go to regular dating.

Want a fuck that doesn't feel like a whole girl (although technically it is), and allows me to live a fantasy life for however long it lasts. I go to SA.

I simply don't see the point in comparing and trying to draw parallels (or opposites) between the two worlds. One is real life other is fantasy life. Call it I have MPD. Who cares?

Now, anyone had a good bang off seeking of late? Please post.

"Training wheels" was the first comparison that came to my mind, too, but on second thought, it's not. More like driving a car instead of learning to ride a bicycle. You can go on a 100 sugar dates and your success rate in vanilla won't get any better. Meanwhile, seeking takes time and energy away from vanilla.

Sure, you're not needy, creepy or worried about the outcome in vanilla if you got your p4 p backup. But on the flip side, you're less motivated, less persistent, and she can probably sense that you're not that interested in her.

Going on seeking dates let's you practice for vanilla dates but isn't it better to just go on more vanilla dates? And if you are only getting a few vanillas a year then it'd be more productive to focus your efforts on improving that; seeking won't help you to get more vanilla dates.

[NoBuglyFitches]

I did not intend to stir up this much controversy with my question hah. What I meant by regular girls were girls met somewhere other than seeking. Dating apps, coffee shop, etc. I was curious if experience from seeking had helped at all since I also go on vanilla dates, but not very successfully. I think sa has been helpful for just being more comfortable on dates, knowing which topics have worked before and also escalating physically. But I also agree with NBF's comparison post, especially point 4, and that sa is like training wheels.

"Training wheels" was the first comparison that came to my mind, too, but on second thought, it's not. More like driving a car instead of learning to ride a bicycle. You can go on a 100 sugar dates and your success rate in vanilla won't get any better. Meanwhile, seeking takes time and energy away from vanilla.

Sure, you're not needy, creepy or worried about the outcome in vanilla if you got your p4 p backup. But on the flip side, you're less motivated, less persistent, and she can probably sense that you're not that interested in her.

Going on seeking dates let's you practice for vanilla dates but isn't it better to just go on more vanilla dates? And if you are only getting a few vanillas a year then it'd be more productive to focus your efforts on improving that; seeking won't help you to get more vanilla dates.

[Elvis 2008]

Isn't that your goal too: to win "top shelf women" long-term, as you put it (and tell us about it LOL!) But unlike him, you need some mental gymnastics to obscure the fact that you are paying money for it.

You need to get out of doing the mental masturbation thing and see the world as it is not who you imagine it to be. Let's go to the facts.

https://www.knowledgeformen.com/unde...ngarrangement/

According to the USA Census, there are roughly 113 million people in the United States between the ages of 18 and 44. And roughly 51% of this population is female.

So now, we have an estimated 60,180,000 women between the ages of 18 and 44. And of those women, roughly 6,700,000 are on Seeking Arrangement. And that number is only growing.

Take out the married woman, the women in relationships, lesbians, trans women, women who have a SD who are off the site, and add in the women who are using other sugar sites and the women doing sugar things not on line, and I think you are at one in two women looking for a SD. And based on what I have seen, most guys will take the SB half of women over the other half all day every day.

Another quote, What surprised me most about my time on Seeking Arrangement was how seemingly "normal" most of the women were. It wasn't like I was talking with uneducated women, amateur porn stars or drug addled strippers trying to earn money in between performances. Some of these women I even had mutual friends with on social media.

In fact, most of the women I met seemed like your typical "girl next door" mostly worried about their tuition, student loans, making rent or just wanted extra cash to fuel a better lifestyle. Many of them were college educated, some of them graduates from top tier universities and, in several cases, held graduate degrees.

And that is EXACTLY my experience. Here is more:

After several months of this experiment, I found that nearly 80% of the women with whom I went out would eventually bring up money between the first and third encounter, expressing their desire for a specific dollar amount or monthly allowance and they would not lower their price.

As for the other 20% of women, as long as I paid for a fun night out, the conversation of money never surfaced. Perhaps this was because I was already spending money on the date, just not directly handing it over to them.

That was my percentage in Mexico. It was a little higher in Colombia and 0% in the USA. Here is more:

But to be honest, the main reason I experienced as much (unpaid) success as I did was that I've spent the better part of a decade refining and honing my dating and social skills. Learning how to hook a woman's interest, be non-needy, pass tests, physically escalate, sexualize interactions, and create the emotionally high adventurous times that few women experienced.

Without these skills, I have no doubt that all of my interactions would have resulted in women shamelessly trying to convert me into their loyal sugar daddy and requesting a "sugar baby allowance" at the end of each date.

The bragging is nauseating, but the point holds: a man can score on seeking with game and not just money.

Back to the article:

On Tinder, Bumble or Hinge, where the dating market is skewed heavily in women's favor as the selector, most men, even successful men, are something of a disposable item on those traditional dating apps. Responses go unread for months, matches go cold in a matter of days, and, on the rare occasion you do strike up a conversation with someone whom you're attracted to, the odds of it turning into a date hover around 15% (and that's good!

Oh yeah, sign me up for that.

I want to quote this because I think it is so funny.

If you want to learn how to develop these skills and successfully date high-quality women without giving up your hard-earned income to pay a sugar baby's monthly allowance and all the expensive dinner dates then grab a copy of The Dating Playbook for Men on amazon which is the best book on the subject.

If relationships increasingly revolve around a man's wealth and his ability to provide lavish experiences, it is unlikely that men will feel motivated to engage in the necessary internal work required to sustain a meaningful relationship with a quality woman.

At that point, it is just more mental masturbation about how terrible sugar dating is. Yes, it is so much purer to give this guy your money than the women. LOL.

As for those wonderful meaningful relationships, take a look at the 8 minute mark on this video, and you have the prize at the end of the "real" relationship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcJnBM9g9SA.

Keep in mind that her marriage is in the the top half of marriages as she still is technically married, and at her age, this woman is easily in the top half with looks. She even admits to being a sugar momma where she pays for sex. And the woman before this one on the video openly says the more flowers she gets from her BF, the more blowjobs she gives him. To me, this shows that most American women are hookerish, and this author of the article is trying to sucker men into courting these hookerish women.

With seeking, you can meet loads of women and in essence are starting at third base. With "regular" dating, you are most likely to be in the dugout and you are lucky if you even get up to bat and have a swing. You can't work on your game if you do not get practice.

If you want my history, I got suckered into marriage. I was covering all the household expenses and my crazy wife was making me feel badly. I would pay women on the outside to feel good. I took my financial lumps and thought marriage was crazy and devoted myself to the sugar world, and I was very happy in that world.

I think the biggest issue with the book the game is that the goal is the one night stand and most one night stands suck. Usually one party feels horribly afterwards. Guys tend to recall their great escorts experiences too but most are bad or average. Guys think a newer woman will be better but she rarely is. You need to know what you want not just go for new.

With SBs, I got to learn what kind of woman made me happy longer term and what were my no gos and my red flags, and I said "okay if I am going to be monogamous, here is a list of qualities I would need". The list was so high that I never thought any woman could match them. There was a lot of fun and bumps along the way. That woman I thought I would never meet? Yeah, I met her.

As for what happens next with you, for a few weeks, you will sulk as you hang onto your version of reality. And then you will realize you cannot counter one thing I said factually. Not one. Then you will say eh, what is the harm in trying to get a seeking woman in bed without money? And it will take time and many dates, but you will learn what works and does not work for you, and you will eventually succeed.

And you know what you will tell yourself? I am glad I thought of the idea of getting a seeking woman in bed without paying. This is not my first rodeo with this topic.

[FilthyBeaver]

At my age I have neither the constitution or drive to date everyday, platonic, sexual, or otherwise. Some of you would consider me young and some, old. Seeing my SB at home once a week, maybe 3 x / mo works for me. When I'm mongering elsewhere on the planet, some strange every 2/3 days is about right, maybe slightly less (or more if I find someone I want to see more than once or have good chemistry with).

(And by the way, FilthyBeaver just reported $300-1500 per date; that's $100-200 K a year to have sex every day!

This debate is starting to feel a tad less cordial, so it's time for me to leave this topic. Thanks for your posts; they helped me clear up my own thinking on all this. I look forward to your parting thoughts if any.

GoingDumb: I will post my $02 on using sugar to get better at vanilla.

[NoBuglyFitches]

Why would I listen to broke ass guys?

Because they understand women and see through their BS. Not every post on this forum can say the same.

no matter how high of a quality the last woman was, he (Mystery) would go for the new chasing a bigger high.

Isn't that your goal too: to win "top shelf women" long-term, as you put it (and tell us about it LOL!) But unlike him, you need some mental gymnastics to obscure the fact that you are paying money for it. Personally, I just enjoy the sex and the moment and don't base my self-esteem on what I think they think of me.

Also, "top shelf women" know the score and skillfully monetize their pretty privilege. If you are sugar dating such a woman / women, you're generally overpaying for sex in terms of frequency, duration, condoms, threesomes and so on.

You do not think the women on seeking really want to go out with you.

True, seeking girls won't give me booty calls for free. Most wouldn't go on an unpaid trip with me. Do you have a different experience?

Even if she likes me and has sex without payment on the 2nd date, after we have dinner and a night out clubbing, she'll still be back on seeking selling pussy to some other old guy. I get it, she's got bills to pay but it's not "regular girl" behavior.

Back to the question I asked earlier: did you actually have sex without paying money for it? And with a girl who doesn't expect or accept money? That's what the OP was asking about. (And by the way, FilthyBeaver just reported $300-1500 per date; that's $100-200 K a year to have sex every day!

This debate is starting to feel a tad less cordial, so it's time for me to leave this topic. Thanks for your posts; they helped me clear up my own thinking on all this. I look forward to your parting thoughts if any.

GoingDumb: I will post my $02 on using sugar to get better at vanilla.

[Elvis 2008]

Of course, they are! Seeking women have sex for money, on the first or 2nd date, with the much older men to whom they are not particularly attracted. This is why seeking is being discussed on ISG in the first place. "Regular" women emphatically don't do that.

One of my favorite escorts made her lawyer BF wait two months before having sex. And as far as what other women want, there was an escort booked up for months, and she told me she was going to a bar. I referred to the same thing you are referring to, her wanting a young stud, and she said, "No, when I go out, I hope that I meet a man much like you. ", and she said it with such conviction I believed her to my benefit. And I can assure you that when she did go to that bar, there was no neon sign saying escort on her.

As for the men women want, I had a sugar baby who had a BF of that type, 6 pack abs and 10 inch cock, the kind of guy every woman wants right? Well, after a while, she got tired of all that female attention and she later found out, he was fucking other women on the side. She said she would never date someone more attractive than her ever again.

And there was the time that a stripper had a squirting, shake the wall kind of orgasm when giving a lap dance to me. She refused to dance for me again. Finally, she tried once and got turned on and quit and said, "I do not trust myself with you. " I was so confused and a friend of hers explained to me that she had not had that kind of orgasm with her husband and that feeling scared her. You never really know how the men who look like they are the types women want perform in bed.

In the USA with seeking, I never had a woman not set a price but when I did not mention price in Mexico and Colombia, there were times I got fucked without a promise of cash. I never had an escort go bareback with me in Mexico or Colombia, but I got BB more often than not from the women I met on seeking. Even if I offered escorts more, they would not do it.

For myself, I've come to see it as essentially a way to signal intelligence. In evolutionary terms, intelligence is a desirable trait; hence, it's sexually attractive like height or a chiseled jawline. But unlike the latter, it doesn't advertise itself. You need to demonstrate it effectively, to be your most attractive self, which feels great. At the same time you arouse her by stimulating her mind. An extra benefit is you learn to understand women a bit and get some idea of how they really feel about you.

So you mean you don't care about how a seeking woman views you? LOL. I have a novel idea. Why don't you meet a woman off seeking and not mention price, dazzle her with your inellect, and see if you can get her into bed and to orgasm, and not give her any money.

No one can argue if you say that the "game" is not for you personally, but unless you tried it and succeeded, you can't really give advice to others.

To the contrary, I have actually challenged other guys to do what I have done, and they have succeeded like I have. You are trapped in a prison of your own making. You do not think the women on seeking really want to go out with you. It is good that you are going outside of the hooker concept, but it is pretty clear you are wrestling with an inferiority complex.

[NoBuglyFitches]

You are talking about game in the sense of picking up women.

Precisely. That was the OP's question and that's what the word means to most people.

When Dramafree was talking about the "game", he was talking about winning over a top shelf woman / women longer term.

I'd say "renting" rather than winning: if he stops paying / supporting / helping them, they stop fucking. And vice versa. Contrary to what FB said, it is indeed transactional.

I don't know what you mean by a "top shelf woman. " I just look for a someone that I'm personally happy with, sexually and otherwise.

You are just making up in your head this false notion that seeking women and "regular" women are in two different camps. They are not.

Of course, they are! Seeking women have sex for money, on the first or 2nd date, with the much older men to whom they are not particularly attracted. This is why seeking is being discussed on ISG in the first place. "Regular" women emphatically don't do that.

The fans of that book think the guy Mystery is great and a hero / stud because he could pick up women ... And it is those guys and guys like Mystery who are telling you that when you score women on seeking the women just like you for money. Why would I listen to broke ass guys? Or guys getting a woman in bed by bullshitting her rather than paying her? I think that is sick

It's not about him as a person or his skills or method. He was 20 years ago anyway. It's about developing your own approach. It's also not bullshitting. For myself, I've come to see it as essentially a way to signal intelligence. In evolutionary terms, intelligence is a desirable trait; hence, it's sexually attractive like height or a chiseled jawline. But unlike the latter, it doesn't advertise itself. You need to demonstrate it effectively, to be your most attractive self, which feels great. At the same time you arouse her by stimulating her mind. An extra benefit is you learn to understand women a bit and get some idea of how they really feel about you.

No one can argue if you say that the "game" is not for you personally, but unless you tried it and succeeded, you can't really give advice to others.

[GoingDumb]

Maybe his goal isn't to save money. It's to meet "regular girls," who don't sell it for money. And perhaps to have the ego boost of a hookup that didn't involve money.

A couple of posters implied that the two are comparable, so for the guys who might be new to both endeavors, let me talk about the differences as I see them. For the meaning of the word "game" in this context -- which some posters apparently don't know -- see, for example, the eponymous book by Neill Strauss.

1. Meet-and-greet from Seeking means you already got a "first date," which is 1/3 of the task in vanilla. In vanilla, you need to approach, open (start a conversation), create attraction, get her digits / socials (or Tinder match), maintain her interest, and get her to come and meet you.

2. At the M&G you are on a date with a woman who is in principle open to having sex, either that day or at the next date. In vanilla terms, you are already one-on-one with an "easy girl. " Heck, simply identifying girls who will fuck that day is a viable pick-up technique in itself.

3. You are going into the M&G with built-in DHV (demonstration of higher value), because she believes / hopes you're a potential rich SD.

4. You don't need to sweep her off her feet. She may not even want that -- or she risks a broken heart. You just need to be a normal, average-looking nice guy who's financially capable. Every vanilla date that ends with a kiss and a thank-you-I-had-a-great-time -- or worse, LJBF (let's just be friends) -- becomes a lay in sugarland.

I did not intend to stir up this much controversy with my question hah. What I meant by regular girls were girls met somewhere other than seeking. Dating apps, coffee shop, etc. I was curious if experience from seeking had helped at all since I also go on vanilla dates, but not very successfully. I think sa has been helpful for just being more comfortable on dates, knowing which topics have worked before and also escalating physically. But I also agree with NBF's comparison post, especially point 4, and that sa is like training wheels.

[DigLicker]

You will love the city!! I pay between $2 O0-300. Do not bother paying in Pesos, just tell them no. If you say yes, they will just make additional demands.

There just is not that many sex tourists running around here, so do not afraid to negotiate a little bit. Be fair and strive for a win-win deal.

Things are definitely getting worse economically in Mexico, just like in America. The girls do not have as many options as a couple of years ago.

I am here now, smoking hot girls everywhere. No wonder I get bored in MTY.

This is interesting to hear, I heard alot of folks complaining that since the peso is inflated to the dollar and the amount of digital nomads coming in that prices are up for girls. But wouldn't be surprised, Mexico doesn't really seem like a hotspot for mongering compared to Colombia. This is a good thing and lets hope to keep it this way.

[Elvis 2008]

A couple of posters implied that the two are comparable, so for the guys who might be new to both endeavors, let me talk about the differences as I see them. For the meaning of the word "game" in this context -- which some posters apparently don't know -- see, for example, the eponymous book by Neill Strauss.

Two out of my approx fifty sugars last year asked for dick picks. Both were legit. This is sugars only.

You are going into the M&G with built-in DHV (demonstration of higher value), because she believes / hopes you're a potential rich SD.

When Dramafree was talking about the "game", he was talking about winning over a top shelf woman / women longer term. You are talking about game in the sense of picking up women.

And I do not know why you think we would not know about that book. The fans of that book think the guy Mystery is great and a hero / stud because he could pick up women, but they are missing that he could not get a GF and was horribly depressed. He was literally an addict using women instead of drugs and no matter how high of a quality the last woman was, he would go for the new chasing a bigger high.

He is literally bullshitting and using women. No woman I know would think a guy like this is high value. That is why he has to put on the "show" of value.

What started this conversation was a guy looking to pick up "regular women" as if the women on seeking were all hookers. Some on the site most certainly are, but many if not most are on the site to avoid guys like mystery. They want high value guys not bullshit artists.

When you said you can be an "average" looking guy and score on seeking, I was like wait a second. I have seen the number of PMs hot women get. You are probably top 5% if you even have a date with a hot seeking woman. You just think you are average because you have not seen all her other PMs.

The other seeking advantage is that you know the women are seeking men. You go to a bar and you do know if the woman is really looking for men or not.

The good looking guys who women bang and have no money are not taken seriously by most women long term. And it is those guys and guys like Mystery who are telling you that when you score women on seeking the women just like you for money. Why would I listen to broke ass guys? Or guys getting a woman in bed by bullshitting her rather than paying her? I think that is sick.

I had a woman who was feeling bad about taking money for sex. I was like look at football players. Those are people being paid for using their bodies. Why is that okay and you not selling yours? I guess I did too good of a job because she went from being my SB to being an escort. It was funny to see her become literally the hottest woman in the escort world in my area for years, and she was not the best looking or performing SB I had.

If you think the seeking women are all about money, you HAVE to think what she did was smart because she was killing it financially. Thing is when you work a job you hate, you tend to spend all that extra money on stupid shit that makes you feel better, and she definitely did that. The worst part was her baby daddy sued for child custody saying she was a hooker and he won. So when someone says these sugar baby prospects only care about money, they are saying that these women do not care about their children or their happiness which is pretty stupid when you think about it.

I don't know what it means to have 50 sugars, and I am not sure I want to know. If I am sleeping with 50 women from seeking, and I think I can speak for Dramafree, winning the game / the goal is to get to the highest quality women. It is not to bang as much strange as you can, and that is what the website was designed for. I would not be surprised if one of his SBs turned escort, she was crazy popular too. I have personally seen the quality he gets.

If guys use the site to just get laid and promote the image that all the women on it are hookers, there is a chance the site could be shut down. If it exists so women can use it to weed out the bullshit artists and to allow men to know which women are available, I think it stays strong. And to the OP, I can assure you that seeking women go to bars and other places and guys try to pick them up. You are just making up in your head this false notion that seeking women and "regular" women are in two different camps. They are not. The guys saying that are broke ass losers and bullshit artists.

[Greyhat]

You will love the city!! I pay between $2 O0-300. Do not bother paying in Pesos, just tell them no. If you say yes, they will just make additional demands.

There just is not that many sex tourists running around here, so do not afraid to negotiate a little bit. Be fair and strive for a win-win deal.

Things are definitely getting worse economically in Mexico, just like in America. The girls do not have as many options as a couple of years ago.

I am here now, smoking hot girls everywhere. No wonder I get bored in MTY.

Wow you are right. I've been successful in lining up a number of potential dates with some hot young adult girls in CDMX. Thanks for your tips. It appears to be (so far in my dealing on SA) so much easier than in the US.

[MiamiBoy1]

A couple of posters implied that the two are comparable, so for the guys who might be new to both endeavors, let me talk about the differences as I see them. For the meaning of the word "game" in this context -- which some posters apparently don't know -- see, for example, the eponymous book by Neill Strauss.

1. Meet-and-greet from Seeking means you already got a "first date," which is 1/3 of the task in vanilla. In vanilla, you need to approach, open (start a conversation), create attraction, get her digits / socials (or Tinder match), maintain her interest, and get her to come and meet you.

2. At the M&G you are on a date with a woman who is in principle open to having sex, either that day or at the next date. In vanilla terms, you are already one-on-one with an "easy girl. " Heck, simply identifying girls who will fuck that day is a viable pick-up technique in itself.

3. You are going into the M&G with built-in DHV (demonstration of higher value), because she believes / hopes you're a potential rich SD.

4. You don't need to sweep her off her feet. She may not even want that -- or she risks a broken heart. You just need to be a normal, average-looking nice guy who's financially capable. Every vanilla date that ends with a kiss and a thank-you-I-had-a-great-time -- or worse, LJBF (let's just be friends) -- becomes a lay in sugarland.

I agree with you, however, in very competitive markets (very few hot girls and many dudes you are competing with) it is not that easy to get a girl's attention and make her meet you in person. Your profile has to stand out, your opening message needs to stand out, etc. Yes, it is easy to score an average looking girl who is down for p4 p. Good luck with the really hot ones. Me personally, I focus on top 5%-7% regardless of the platform and I find it very challenging to even get to the point of negotiating an arrangement. The number of dudes we are competing with is so high in some markets that most of the time I got left on read.

[NoBuglyFitches]

A couple of posters implied that the two are comparable, so for the guys who might be new to both endeavors, let me talk about the differences as I see them. For the meaning of the word "game" in this context -- which some posters apparently don't know -- see, for example, the eponymous book by Neill Strauss.

1. Meet-and-greet from Seeking means you already got a "first date," which is 1/3 of the task in vanilla. In vanilla, you need to approach, open (start a conversation), create attraction, get her digits / socials (or Tinder match), maintain her interest, and get her to come and meet you.

2. At the M&G you are on a date with a woman who is in principle open to having sex, either that day or at the next date. In vanilla terms, you are already one-on-one with an "easy girl. " Heck, simply identifying girls who will fuck that day is a viable pick-up technique in itself.

3. You are going into the M&G with built-in DHV (demonstration of higher value), because she believes / hopes you're a potential rich SD.

4. You don't need to sweep her off her feet. She may not even want that -- or she risks a broken heart. You just need to be a normal, average-looking nice guy who's financially capable. Every vanilla date that ends with a kiss and a thank-you-I-had-a-great-time -- or worse, LJBF (let's just be friends) -- becomes a lay in sugarland.

[NoBuglyFitches]

Of course no chick has ever asked for a dick pic in the history of mankind so I guess that's a tell.

Two out of my approx fifty sugars last year asked for dick picks. Both were legit. One didn't want large, the other didn't want small. (Well, the latter was actually an opportunistic scammer and used fake pics too, but she was also a fantastic fuck.) This is sugars only. On the specialized apps for bwc / bbc, nearly every woman asks.

Jesus could you guys just leave it be? There is some core disagreement here. Not everyone needs to be right.

Disagreement is useful. It advances knowledge, importantly of oneself. Being wrong is actually more valuable.

I picked up on this question because my "goal" last year was to sugar date girls who were similar to my vanilla pickups from a while back.

[Elvis 2008]

Glad you were entertained. My posts may come off as arrogant, so I don't post much.

No, I do not think you represent your POV well.

Game is how you have sex with a woman for the first time without giving her money (and with a woman who doesn't have sex for money).

Under that definition, a guy drugging or using violence has game and one who pays for it does not, and I do not think you meant that.

IMO there is playing the game and winning and losing. Winning is getting a woman into bed under terms you accept and when the sex is over, you feel satisfied with the result.

So if you meet a woman off seeking and she is motivated by greed, you are right. It is not winning getting her into bed. Maybe those are the only types you have met off seeking.

I met a lot of seeking women motivated more by fear than greed and needed some persuasion. Among things they are worried about is their safety, how they feel about themselves, how they are going to be seen after having sex with you ETC. Soothing those fears and getting them into bed on acceptable terms to you is absolutely winning the game.

As for the women and their motivations, I was engaged to a Venezuelan 30 years younger than me and I was seeing her in Peru. My time was up, and I was kissing her goodbye and got into a cab. The Peruvian cabbie said to me en route, "You have a pretty GF". Later, I thought why did he think GF and not hooker? And I realized it was how she looked at me and kissed me.

I know women who met men through non sugar sites that are just after a guy's money, and I am sure you have too. I just don't think you have met a couple who has met on seeking that are really into each other, and I can assure you that they exist. It is just something they are not going to come out and admit.

I get being skeptical on line, but in real life, if you saw such a couple, you could tell it was real just as easily as that Peruvian cabbie.