Rants and WTF are you talking about and Coronavirus!

[Sirioja]

Cross-posting from Berlin thread. French language article, so someone should verify translation but I believe WG in France infected 13 men, who then went on to infect their families. Wonder if this might influence decisions to reopen:

https://m.lematin.ch/articles/31932243

This was written on 23 March, took place not far from Leman lake and Geneva, 2 Colombian prostitutes, the one 36 yo infected had clients who can be and bring back at home, same like what could happen in brothels, one infected with no symptom, no fever, infect a healthy girl also with no symptom so she doesn't know, a superstar who makes 10 clients in her day, but most not so healthy, some return to wife at home who has diabetes or breast cancer, some go to another club on next day or next week, and then try to calculate running R0. I don t know when brothels will reopen but I m sure really impossible to prevent virus from coming to brothels, even with Europe closed borders, even with quarantine for UK as they do, but even virus is now very slow in Western Europe, but still killing few, despite Summer heat, protection used now in Europe, and what will happen on Autumn when will be 10 degrees? I think nobody know, but better to be aware brothels are risky playfield and not only for this virus, reason why hygiene is so important for me and why I tell when girls don t even have to take shower, when a previous client came on her body, or after going to toilets and You need to wait to make come wet not to taste bitter.

[Pessimist]

As Delta Indigo noted, the papers you linked do not contradict the scientific consensus.

Also your link comes from a pre-print server..

Your assumption is that there is a pre-existing scientific consensus and the burden is on the people to disprove it otherwise the consensus stands.

Are there are any studies which are not pre-print but peer reviewed and accepted by majority / most of virologists and epidemiologists that traces the exact path of the virus from whatever is the original source to humans, and importantly do such studies conclusively prove that no Wuhan lab was ever involved?

If so, please do provide such links.

It would also be useful to know what is your definition of consensus, and who are part of this consensus that you have referenced many times. Please also state what is the exact wording of this consensus when was this consensus formed. Thank you, much appreciated.

[Sirioja]

My intent was not to talk about the climate change. It was more about politicians dismissing science. There is supposedly 97 percent consensus among scientists on global warming. In early March when there were few cases in the USA, Neil DeGrasse Tyson considered the CV-19 response to be a social experiment. During the first 3 minutes of this video, he says "The experiment is will people listen to scientists": https://youtu.be/jB4FUHHMI24.

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthca...ce-backgrounds

https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes....ct-scientists/

Covid is a killer, but climate crisis will kill much more, with more and more storms, Bangladesh will become new Atlantis, real white bears, not old fat in brothels, will kill more and more when they won t have anymore and soon home on ice disappearing. When US and China don't care about pollution, 2 big murderers, I cry every winter when I see my beloved mountains, Alpe Huez glacier 3200 meters high is dying, Grande Motte Tignes glacier 3500 meters received 15 meters snow falling on Winter 20 years ago, now they are happy when they have 5 meters on whole Winter, I remember when I was a child at ski, having 50 cm snow falling in the night, now when we have 15 cm fresh snow, this is Christmas, lets go free riding, taking risks with rocks just hidden by 10 cm, kicking in. Sad planet humans are killing. Nevertheless, even too late for ski, but was so happy man today starting my Summer tour for 4 months ln this Summer. Since November, after 3 first kilometers to train heart and put it in rhythm, I was impressed by level in legendary la Madeleine. I want to make my Summer great enjoyable, when I had no Winter because of fucking killer virus, but they also send us and to our children, consequences from their heavy pollution. Our children are more and more fat and diabetic from US foods and with asthma from pollution. Not so healthy to fight and fuck virus.

[Pistons]

They are stopped on autobahn, thus they must be worse at drifting while running at 100? OK.

[McAdonis]

Cross-posting from Berlin thread. French language article, so someone should verify translation but I believe WG in France infected 13 men, who then went on to infect their families. Wonder if this might influence decisions to reopen:

https://m.lematin.ch/articles/31932243

[Sirioja]

Bugatti is Volkswagen. So it is a German company now, and has been since 1998. It doesn't matter that they band themselves as french. Same with Seat and Skoda.

Bugatti are built in France, Germans don't have this level of skill at home, despite Porsche and Maybach, but all made with men hands, no robots. I prefer Audi now because most solid engines to prepare and best quality and I can put skis and bicycle, I can t in little frog 911 , but for cars until A3, A class, BM1 , Golf, category, french cars can compete with better balance and grip. BMW losing soul and history, coming to front wheel driving for BM1, for more safety. You go to Germany when snowing, even with winter tires, BMW and Mercedes are stopped on autobahn when You can drive 100 with super soft tires if You think a bit Finnish and are ready to slide a bit. This is German cars, look at clio, megane, 208,308, 508,3008, going on snow, even without winter tires, we don t have to put winter tires in France, I go to Val Thorens 2300 meters high with super soft tires made to perform on Nurburgring.

[Pistons]

My intent was not to talk about the climate change. It was more about politicians dismissing science. There is supposedly 97 percent consensus among scientists on global warming. In early March when there were few cases in the USA, Neil DeGrasse Tyson considered the CV-19 response to be a social experiment. During the first 3 minutes of this video, he says "The experiment is will people listen to scientists": https://youtu.be/jB4FUHHMI24.

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthca...ce-backgrounds

https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes....ct-scientists/

But if you read my post again, I don't say there is no human made global warming. I just say cloud seeding is the reason for it. Not co2.

I have read too many papers on this to count, and all the co2 gang does is to pull up parallel charts. The same way Erasmus Montanus compares his mom to a stone. Since they both cannot fly. They must be the same!

But the only thing that has been tested with proof and shows warming effects are clouds!

The main reason for the CO2 being demonized are peak oil. Since we are about to run out of the cheap to extract resource. Thus we have to tax it in order to diversify our energy mix. It is a long term safety strategy. Just like the CCP safety tactics in order to hide the corona virus.

[Pistons]

What about Bugatti quality made in France? When French Peugeot cars have usually the best balance: You take 308 with 150 power, you take V40, A3, A class, 118, Golf, You take also Megane, all with 150 power, cars around 30 000 , you go to test on Nurburgring, winner will be 308 , no other will compete in curves, Megane should be in top 3. Megane RS is the fastest in this category in Nurburgring. Same You take 508, with A4, 318, see class, all with same power, and 508 will be ahead. Best balance, best efficiency for grip, no need for quattro, 4 matic, xdrive. German cars are famous but don t mean they are all high quality or better quality, just difference of culture when German cars are built for free speed autobahns, when You will be faster on french motorways than in Germany full of works with 80 or 60 speed limits. Tesla is just impressive joke for me, if I rent a Tesla in Germany, I m pretty sure I can t drive Dusseldorf Frankfurt free speed. To succeed, I will have to drive as fast as on bicycle. Hybrid with hydrogen seem much more interesting technique for me, when electric is just a lie, first you can drive only Hollywood Boulevard, not longer, and You just move the problem, no more pollution in Hollywood, but you make a lot of pollution to build battery in poor countries and what do you do with old battery? Just a big lie, nobody tell about. I will never buy any electric car killing poor people to make rich breathing better. Same like virus killing more poor than rich. Even electric cars start very fast, but after, they are heavy and you can't really drive, they are made for snails in Switzerland.

Bugatti is Volkswagen. So it is a German company now, and has been since 1998. It doesn't matter that they band themselves as french. Same with Seat and Skoda.

[Pessimist]

Yes this is a rare evolutionary development and many things are not fully understood about it. But where does it say in any of those articles that it was man made?

Viruses do occasionally evolve in an unpredictable manner, the explanation isn't that complex, the more humans intrude into previously untouched natural realms, the higher the chance of something like this happening.

We are not sure how this happened, eating exotic animals or a study of bats, but this is far from unimaginable.

All the major diseases we have today, tuberculosis and so on, came from the agrarian revolution and were passed from animals to humans.

So these articles do not contradict the scientific "consensus". Also we don't need to get to the exact source to understand a lot about the virus, there are numerous viral samples whose RNA can be sequenced as McAdonis pointed out.

If this is a biological weapon it is a very ineffective one with a shockingly low mortality rate.

I am glad you and Mr McAdonis are convinced of the existence of the scientific "consensus". Is it an article of faith? The papers I included do not say they are man made, and I did not say they do. They say work needs to be done to establish the origins of the virus. Which means the origin is still inconclusive. You say there is already a consensus Re: how it came about. But active research work is going on to investigate those origins.

It seems to me that the people claiming it is "not man made" have already made up their minds. Hence this rush to claim a scientific consensus, and an urgency to shut down alternate voices by minimizing them as "conspiracy theories with loony political motives". Be that as it may, the normal scientific process including a proper investigation by real scientists that one can trust was blocked. I am amazed that you think a consensus was formed in the absence of an independent investigation. If you truly believe in science and more importantly in scientific process, how is any conclusion and consensus formed when investigators are blocked?

As for bio weapon. The objective need not be the death toll. From the beginning I said it was to narrow the economic gap between China On one side and traditional western societies on the other, and to help perpetuate Xi atop China. That objective has been achieved to some extent.

[Sirioja]

What about Bugatti quality made in France? When French Peugeot cars have usually the best balance: You take 308 with 150 power, you take V40, A3, A class, 118, Golf, You take also Megane, all with 150 power, cars around 30 000 , you go to test on Nurburgring, winner will be 308 , no other will compete in curves, Megane should be in top 3. Megane RS is the fastest in this category in Nurburgring. Same You take 508, with A4, 318, see class, all with same power, and 508 will be ahead. Best balance, best efficiency for grip, no need for quattro, 4 matic, xdrive. German cars are famous but don t mean they are all high quality or better quality, just difference of culture when German cars are built for free speed autobahns, when You will be faster on french motorways than in Germany full of works with 80 or 60 speed limits. Tesla is just impressive joke for me, if I rent a Tesla in Germany, I m pretty sure I can t drive Dusseldorf Frankfurt free speed. To succeed, I will have to drive as fast as on bicycle. Hybrid with hydrogen seem much more interesting technique for me, when electric is just a lie, first you can drive only Hollywood Boulevard, not longer, and You just move the problem, no more pollution in Hollywood, but you make a lot of pollution to build battery in poor countries and what do you do with old battery? Just a big lie, nobody tell about. I will never buy any electric car killing poor people to make rich breathing better. Same like virus killing more poor than rich. Even electric cars start very fast, but after, they are heavy and you can't really drive, they are made for snails in Switzerland.

Japanese Honda NSX was really interesting for perfect architecture for balance, formula 1 architecture. Mitsou lancer evo was the only one which could compete with Escort RS Cosworth before Ford killed her very fast, when Ford don t know much about European standards for car quality, even Mustang is legend from Bullit but can t compete in Europe. Nevertheless Ford improved on 2 last decades, when building some dangerous cars before. We don t drive under 60 miles in Europe, when adrenaline is trying to pass full speed, over quattro and super soft tires grip, in new curve built on new autobahn before Neuss, I think Holz. Also great curves around Ulmen Nurburgring and between Kaiserlautern and Trier where I needed more than the 2 lines to control electronic quattro on 15 March, I don t understand how it work on rear wheels, xdrive is much easier to feel grip. I miss these weekly runs, maybe more than brothels. Also great curves around, between Carinthia and Zoncolan. Wish to go to Frioul, when I starting my Summer on this week end for at least 4 months for climbing, when couldn't ski on this Winter, just killing skis on Christmas.

[McAdonis]

Climate change:

There is no denying that humans have had a hand in climate change, but the question is if this was planned or not. Or just a result of water shortages around the world:

https://www.etcgroup.org/content/chi...l-or-otherwise

We know that lower clouds cools down the temperature, and that higher up clouds warms the temperature. This is undisputed. So guess what happens when we drain all the water away from the lower cloud layers.

My intent was not to talk about the climate change. It was more about politicians dismissing science. There is supposedly 97 percent consensus among scientists on global warming. In early March when there were few cases in the USA, Neil DeGrasse Tyson considered the CV-19 response to be a social experiment. During the first 3 minutes of this video, he says "The experiment is will people listen to scientists": https://youtu.be/jB4FUHHMI24.

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthca...ce-backgrounds

https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes....ct-scientists/

[McAdonis]

The point of this: There is a lo of work being done as we speak. To claim that the origin of virus is already settled science, "there is broad scientific consensus it is not man made" is not accurate when researchers are saying work needs to be done to investigate the origins.

"The virus's ability to bind protein on human cells was far greater than its ability to bind the same protein in bats, which argues against bats being a direct source of the human virus."

"While it has been suggested by some Chinese scientists that the COVID-19 virus might have been transmitted to humans from pangolins, currently available data does not support this idea," Professor Petrovsky says.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.01.073262v1

As Delta Indigo noted, the papers you linked do not contradict the scientific consensus. The authors appear to make two assertions: (1) that bats are not the "direct source" and (2) the pangolin was not the intermediate host. This aligns with the scientific consensus of bats being the indirect source. When they write "origins", the focus of their investigation is the exact path the virus took from bats to humans and at what point this virus evolved to its current pathogenic state. Scientists are not sure whether this mutation occurred while inside an animal host or a human host.

Also your link comes from a pre-print server. Please go to their home page: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/recent.

There you will find a disclaimer at the top of the page "bioRxiv is receiving many new papers on coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. A reminder: these are preliminary reports that have not been peer-reviewed. They should not be regarded as conclusive, guide clinical practice / health-related behavior, or be reported in news media as established information."

"Further evidence arises from the analysis of the overall molecular structure of the virus. Here the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differs significantly from previous coronaviruses known to infect humans. Instead, the molecular structure more closely resembles viruses found in bats and pangolins. Had the virus been artificially created, the developers would have used a virus already known to infect humans and modified this in order to increase the infectivity or severity.
According to lead researcher, Dr. Kristian Andersen: By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that SARS-CoV-2 originated through natural processes.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-science/science/essential-science-coronavirus-was-not-genetically-engineered/article/569127#ixzz6NvBcSMN9

Research paper: http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9.

This evidence for natural evolution was supported by data on SARS-CoV-2s backbone its overall molecular structure. If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness. But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins.

These two features of the virus, the mutations in the RBD portion of the spike protein and its distinct backbone, rules out genetic engineering as a potential origin for SARS-CoV-2 said co-author Kristian Andersen, PhD, an associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps Research.

https://news.tulane.edu/pr/study-coronavirus-pandemic-sparked-nature-not-bioengineering

[Delta Indigo]

But how and where the SARS-CoV-2 virus adapted to become such an effective human pathogen remains a mystery that requires intensive further scientific investigation, the researchers conclude.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-...d-mystery.html

In a side-by-side comparison of evolutionary dynamics between the 2019/2020 SARS-CoV-2 and the 2003 SARS-CoV, we were surprised to find that SARS-CoV-2 resembles SARS-CoV in the late phase of the 2003 epidemic after SARS-CoV had developed several advantageous adaptations for human transmission. Our observations suggest that by the time SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in late 2019, it was already pre-adapted to human transmission to an extent similar to late epidemic SARS-CoV. However, no precursors or branches of evolution stemming from a less human-adapted SARS-CoV-2-like virus have been detected. The sudden appearance of a highly infectious SARS-CoV-2 presents a major cause for concern that should motivate stronger international efforts to identify the source and prevent near future re-emergence.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.01.073262v1

Yes this is a rare evolutionary development and many things are not fully understood about it. But where does it say in any of those articles that it was man made?

Viruses do occasionally evolve in an unpredictable manner, the explanation isn't that complex, the more humans intrude into previously untouched natural realms, the higher the chance of something like this happening.

We are not sure how this happened, eating exotic animals or a study of bats, but this is far from unimaginable.

All the major diseases we have today, tuberculosis and so on, came from the agrarian revolution and were passed from animals to humans.

So these articles do not contradict the scientific "consensus". Also we don't need to get to the exact source to understand a lot about the virus, there are numerous viral samples whose RNA can be sequenced as McAdonis pointed out.

If this is a biological weapon it is a very ineffective one with a shockingly low mortality rate.

[Sirioja]

I suppose one good thing about Europe being so defragmented is that we won't get our egos up high enough to drive politics and the society in a facist direction. Something in which seems to be an historically appropriate turn of events in a buildup to a large war. Either cold or warm.

And when it comes to Japanese companies, sure Sony is big. But they were bigger I seem to recall. Panasonic too I believe, and their TV's are much worse than the Korean ones. Mitsubishi used to have OK cars. Now I don't see any, but they do have their bank I suppose. Canon? Are they still alive? I thought they died 15 years ago with the smartphone arrivals. Toshiba only has those sd memory cards left. The rest of the company is a balance sheet disaster. And Toyota? Well, they can automate production like none others. Still alive and well, but how well will they do in the years to come with EV cars? No one knows yet. Honda and Suzuki are both into this global merging thing that has been going on just to save face. The same can be said about French cars. All non competitive. Only Tesla and the German cars are competitive globally in my view. Everyone else aside from Toyota are copycats.

What about Bugatti quality made in France? When French Peugeot cars have usually the best balance: You take 308 with 150 power, you take V40, A3, A class, 118, Golf, You take also Megane, all with 150 power, cars around 30 000 €, you go to test on Nurburgring, winner will be 308 , no other will compete in curves, Megane should be in top 3. Megane RS is the fastest in this category in Nurburgring. Same You take 508, with A4, 318, see class, all with same power, and 508 will be ahead. Best balance, best efficiency for grip, no need for quattro, 4 matic, xdrive. German cars are famous but don t mean they are all high quality or better quality, just difference of culture when German cars are built for free speed autobahns, when You will be faster on french motorways than in Germany full of works with 80 or 60 speed limits. Tesla is just impressive joke for me, if I rent a Tesla in Germany, I m pretty sure I can t drive Dusseldorf Frankfurt free speed. To succeed, I will have to drive as fast as on bicycle. Hybrid with hydrogen seem much more interesting technique for me, when electric is just a lie, first you can drive only Hollywood Boulevard, not longer, and You just move the problem, no more pollution in Hollywood, but you make a lot of pollution to build battery in poor countries and what do you do with old battery? Just a big lie, nobody tell about. I will never buy any electric car killing poor people to make rich breathing better. Same like virus killing more poor than rich. Even electric cars start very fast, but after, they are heavy and you can't really drive, they are made for snails in Switzerland.

[McAdonis]

As for the virus itself, saying something like "scientists believe" is not a particularly compelling evidence or conclusion. Virus origination is an issue which can be established with a good amount of accuracy as I understood. It is not something which scientists "need to believe" - if they are able to investigate, they can actually trace it all the way back. We are not able to do it because the country of origin has blocked all efforts in that direction. And I will also point out that this is a fast evolving situation. Our understanding of the virus, what works and what doesn't, what it is or not, are all evolving. Till a few days ago, children were thought to be fairly safe and then they found some symptoms along the lines of Kawasaki syndrome. CDC did not think masks were super helpful and then they changed their recommendation.

My understanding is the CDC asked the public not to buy N95 masks, because they were in limited supply and needed to be prioritized for medical workers who were most at risk. If science truly believed masks provided zero defense to airborne viruses, then medical workers would not have worn them either. The CDC flip-flopped on the idea of the general public wearing cloth masks. There was never a consensus reached on that subject. In fact, there is still an open debate on the efficacy of cloth masks, especially if people do not wear them properly or care for them. So the CDC might flip-flop on this again in another three months. Even if scientific consensus is reached, politicians can still override scientific recommendations if it does not adhere to their political, moral, religious viewpoints, or economic interests.

I also wonder why it is that you are more eager to find faults and shortcomings in the acceptance of science in US society while it is the rogue regime in China that is blocking an investigation which is of enormous help and interest to all humanity. Regardless of what you think of science and it's acceptance in the US society, if you see the technology or healthcare industries, the market share of US companies and the wealth generated by US based companies in these sectors has continually increased over time.

I never questioned America's scientific prowess. Quite the contrary, I said that science was what made America great and hopefully science continues to make America great. The sheer number of American Nobel Prize winners in science validates this. The world's best universities are in the USA. The world's best minds continue to immigrate to USA (over a third of Nobel Prize in science winners since 2000 are immigrants). I am starting to get the impression that you believe that I am anti-American, and I suspect your opinion is partly due to me saying that the virus was not man-made. You are free to believe this. But let me also say this. My opinion that the virus is not man-made is also shared by US Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Mark Milley, who has over 40 years of military service. Also my opinion could change, as new evidence is disclosed. Maybe I am just brainwashed. Maybe I am too deferential to experts.