Rants and WTF are you talking about and Coronavirus!

[Sirioja]

Please remove "me" from that "we". I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid! As another poster on this site noted, why doesn't he go ahead and double his dosage of the chloroquine? After all. What's he got to lose? Ha!

I'm not American and unfortunately in France we don't have often a president who learned arithmetic for economy at school, but Trump and Bolzonaro are same crazy with same results. I may not be clever enough or maybe my social side, but compare to Obama, just Niagara falls, from my point of view, when Trump is same ready for anything than WGs. Maybe more dangerous than Putin. Can t understand telling about pride when just behaving ridiculous. For sure, not a good image for US in Western Europe, maybe for Japan about China. I also don't understand about still free weapons when no more Navajos with arrows, and crazy shooting every day people, most often Black, like Brunswick Georgia. When no more far west.

[Arnold15]

Unfortunately, knowledge about statistcs in this forum is zero.
Continuing comparing apples with pies.
People refer to investigations about antibodies and Corona-deaths with no value at all.

Only statistics on "excess deaths" are valid. And the real conclusion will be known after the second wave.

If anyone really thinks that one can not become immune after Covid-19, then there will neither be any vaccine that works.

Comparing death rates in Sweden with neighboring countries at this moment is nonsense, since Sweden must have XX times more infected (and immune) than Norway, Denmark and Finland that have applied a total premature lock-down strategy.

People claim that "the Swedish strategy is dubious " and "Sweden makes an experiment by NOT locking down". (Sweden is not the only country, also Belarus).
But in reality, it is the opposite.
European countries that lock-down their economies undertake the biggest experiment in modern history.

Amazing that people don't know how similar pandemies have been handled in the past.
During the Asian and HongKong-influences in the 1950's and 1960's there was no lock down whatsoever.
And the economies recovered very fast after the pandemies.

This lock-down is something completely NEW and a real EXPERIMENT.
This time, it will take very long time for economies to recover, due to the stupid lock-down strategy.

No, Sweden does not know anything that other countries do not know. We simply do what is normal in such a situation.

Other European countries have swallowed the "fake news" from China that the whole population must be isolated to handle the pandemic.
Bull-shit.
When most Euroopean countries locked down their economies, the risk groups of Covid-19 were already identified and known world-wide: Old people with underlying diseases.
Most countries decided to isolate their young populations anyway! Not a very clever strategy.

Yes, Sweden did two BIG MISTAKES:
1. Older people in retirement homes were NOT isolated (Instead secondary schools and universities were closed!) Elderly people at these homes continued to meet 10-20 different assistants per week. This is death group No. 1 in Sweden.
2. Older people in immigrant areas were not informed about Covid-19, because they do not understand Swedish. (Reflecting the disastrous Swedish immigration and integration policies). This is death group No. 2 in Sweden.

[Sirioja]

Statistics on REPORTED Corona-deaths in Sweden comapring with other countries is WORTHLESS.

It simply depends on that different countries identify real reasons to deaths in different ways.
Here, Belgium and Sweden are top countries since they identify the death reason - other countries (like France) do not.

The only way to calculate Corona-death are as follows:
Number of dead in April 2020 divided by average number of dead in April 2015-19.

Then you get how many percent died more than normal.

In France, 90% deaths are older than 65 yo and 80% older than 75 yo, so a healthy, fit French under 60 yo, even better if a woman and smoker don t have much risk of big problem about virus, but can give big problem to beloved relatives. Since 11 May, our R0 didn't explode, I think we can judge at the end of the month after more than 15 days and even better on mid June after 30 days, to decide to open borders, but killer virus may not be so strong now when 30 Celsius degrees in Paris, many French want to feel sun on them, to go to swim in sea, to get better mood, to feel free. I would like to go to free ride to feel to fly like a free bird. But FKK land is a real playfield to spread with many old and fat, and when see what happen in South America entering in Winter with lower temperatures, let s wait for next November. Highest deaths rate in Stockholm than in Paris, but on NYC level, when Stockholm don t have same density for people than Paris nor NYC, Swedish made their choice, like NL, I would have made the same, even confined saved more than 60000 life, double than deaths in France, so on this confined point, our politics were right, but not about economic crisis with many unemployment.

[Delta Indigo]

I am not going to respond to anyone directly here and not aim any of the following assertions at anyone, it is just an illustration of some collected analysis from sources and not mere hearsay or anecdotal evidence.

This is a global forum where a lot of people are accustomed to travel and although not everyone here might have an elite education or be very articulate I am surprised at the nationalist chest thumping and to say it kindly the lack of a broad perspective when it comes to discussing the Covid19 pandemic. I was of two minds writing this, some of the responses I have read lack any intellectual rigor whatsoever and can not be construed of as rational arguments, but I have decided to respond nevertheless.

So why has Sweden become an issue of debate here, because it is the sole country in Europe that has advocated against an enforced lock down. So either Sweden knows something every other country in the Europe and wider world, with the exception of wonderfully rational politicians like Bolsanaro, does not know. Or it has chosen a questionable path that even its Nordic neighbors have rejected. The simple assertion that Sweden is right and everyone else is wrong is highly dubious, we will know at the very end of this but the evidence to date is not compelling.

- Arguments to dispute the assertions I have read on this forum.

1. We are not sacrificing our economy that also entails a cost, yes it does, but many countries have chosen this cost and not lightly, this represents a weak argument since in Sweden the economic cost of this pandemic is high anyhow, in fact it is in line with the contraction of the Eurozone and its Nordic neighbors, so if anyone was avoiding a lock down to defray the economic costs, this has not worked.

https://www.politico.eu/article/swed...9-light-touch/

2. We are going to reach herd immunity faster and avoid a second wave, this is in fact possible, but to date there is no evidence for this. Arguments like half the people have had it and we can't measure it are not serious assertions to base policies on, I at one point thought I had had it in March, however you can not be sure and I won't take the risk to get it.

The study in Sweden we have says that Stockholm is far from herd immunity.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...en-coronavirus

In fact the scientists that had predicted higher levels of herd immunity are surprised and said that their model has some seriously false assumptions behind it. Saying you know this is wrong isn't an argument to base serious policy on, it could be wrong and you could also win the lottery tomorrow.

3. The mortality rate is lower than other countries with a lock down. This is increasingly wrong with time.

I had said earlier that certain countries are in different phases of the pandemic, obviously Italy being ahead of the game, and without a lockdown the numbers would increase in Sweden. The fairest comparison would be with countries with similar population densities and climates, ie its Nordic neighbors, I don't think I have to quote any statistics here, they are all too obvious, but the mortality rate and rate of increasing cases in Sweden is many times higher than those countries, there is no doubt about it.

There are many factors as to why a country would have a higher Covid 19 mortality rate, higher population densities and high levels of vitamin D deficiency tend to be a factor. About the vitamin D deficiency, the Nordic countries do not have it but the Mediterranean countries, ie Spain and Italy do, this explains quite a bit.

First the argument was that Sweden had a lower mortality rate than many countries, ie the Netherlands (the most densely populated country in Europe), but now it has supassed the Netherlands and many other countries. The latest argument is that only 5 countries now surpass it. Yes some countries have down worse with a belated or late lock down.

Let us take the UK, this country has had an enormously disastrous and inefficient response to the pandemic, it a long with other countries, was late to respond, so nothing to be proud of here and furthermore England, just England, is even more densely populated than the Netherlands. Italy was first on the scene in Europe and represents a special case. Having a mortality rate lower than these examples is not a compelling argument to say that the national strategy in Sweden was correct. The best contrast would be with similar countries.

4. Only Sweden and Belgium count deaths accurately and in fact the mortality rate is lower than other countries that under count. I have read no evidence of the methodology in Sweden to support this, every country is under counting its deaths with the possible exception of Belgium. The reason is simple, Belgium attributes all non verified causes of death to Covid 19, so it is probably the only country that is over counting, as far as I know Sweden does not do this, does anyone have a credible source to counter this?

I am in fact disappointed that higher levels of immunity are not present and it would have been better for all of us in fact if this strategy was working, but there is not enough, or any, convincing statistical evidence to back this up yet. Therefore this blind sighted confidence in this unique policy is misplaced at present.

The only remaining argument I have heard is that the second wave will be far milder than other countries, that we will have to wait and see, however if it is not, than many people have died in vain. By the way, Herd Immunity was a strategy considered by quite a few European countries, notably the UK, and rejected due to the projected death toll.

[BigBuddy69]

And people do not die in the streets as some poeple from France at this forum seem to believe.

Only one please, most people in France don't live in their own reality.

[Arnold15]

Relation of deaths to # of inhabitants in Sweden is 3 x as high as in Germany. Trending worse.

No heard immunity around the corner there as well. Former forecasts of high percentages of infections (30%) for Stockholm have been reduced to around 7% max.

RN.

Statistics on REPORTED Corona-deaths in Sweden comapring with other countries is WORTHLESS.

It simply depends on that different countries identify real reasons to deaths in different ways.
Here, Belgium and Sweden are top countries since they identify the death reason - other countries (like France) do not.

The only way to calculate Corona-death are as follows:
Number of dead in April 2020 divided by average number of dead in April 2015-19.

Then you get how many percent died more than normal.
And this figure in Sweden is not higher 2020 than 1993, when there was a severe influence.
Comapring period February - May in Sweden 2020 with 2018, then only 1700 more dead people in 2020!
Almost all of them multi-dicesease and average age of 81!


Immunity is much higher than 7 % in Sweden and Stockholm. The Swedish Government has simply only poor test kit to identify antibodies.
At least 50 percent at my work place have had Corona - and it was like a cold for most of them.

Average age of "corona-identified" deaths is 81 years in Sweden.
Corona is only dangerous for ol people with underlying diseases.

Report from Stockholm.
And there is a real free life here.

And people do not die in the streets as some people at this forum seem to believe.


And only wait for the second wave. TSUNAMI in France and BREAZE in Sweden

[PaulInZurich]

Salaam Dreams and Arnold. The herd immunity threshold for coronavirus is generally quoted as 60%. But a recent model from Swedish and UK scientists found it could be just 43%. There's a lot of doubt. Wikipedia says 29 - 74%.

Since we are all speculating around here I'll throw in my guess here as well. I think herd immunity threshold depends on where you live. In a rural, more remote area, the threshold can be much lower than in a big city where you mix with hundreds different people every day (public transit, large office buildings, shopping malls, etc).

So far all studies about general population rate of infection have found that less than 10% people were infected so far, most were quoting 5-7% (Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, US, Switzerland). That includes studies done specifically in areas where there were many reported infections.

[ExpatLover]

In France, chloroquine is not considered efficient versus covid, and many health accidents after taking. Quite dangerous if taken like a bonbon.

For how many years we are taking it to fight malaria, personally I took it at least 10 times, all the India medical staff are taking it, widely used in China and Korea, have a look at the notice of aspirin not sure you will ever take one.

[Rogue Nation]

Salaam Dreams and Arnold. The herd immunity threshold for coronavirus is generally quoted as 60%. But a recent model from Swedish and UK scientists found it could be just 43%. There's a lot of doubt. Wikipedia says 29 - 74%.

I guess in Stockholm they have 20-30% infected by now. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the R0 number, and if Sweden will end up better than its locked-down neighbors.

Relation of deaths to # of inhabitants in Sweden is 3 x as high as in Germany. Trending worse.

No heard immunity around the corner there as well. Former forecasts of high percentages of infections (30%) for Stockholm have been reduced to around 7% max.

RN.

[Sirioja]

What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.

And trying to put the high death rates in Sweden on poor immigrants would be laughable, if not very sad, when even locally produced data show that it was essentially in care homes. And elderly people left exposed to wide virus circulation.

Swedes don't ALWAYS get it right, in spite of what some of them would like to believe. They even messed up the way they manage (d) immigration, and now, compared to their neighbours, Danmark, Finland, Norway, they look terribly bad, to the point that they will be excluded form the free tracel Scandinavian bubble. So you will continue frolicking in Stockholm's parks, but won't be allowed anywhere else during the summer!

Good luck my friend!

Yes, with no confined, old people are in danger in Stockholm, with many deaths, but in France, 90% deaths are more than 65 yo. No proof, recovering give immunity, according to French doctors and very average reliability for tests because depend when you are tested about catching, if you are not infected yet.

[Sirioja]

OK, there is absolutely NO evidence that the use of Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for Covid-19 is safe and effective. This is because the presence of viruses or other infections can change the side effects of a drug. This editorial explains it very well: https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1432.long . '. wide use of hydroxychloroquine will expose some patients to rare but potentially fatal harms, including serious cutaneous adverse reactions, fulminant hepatic failure, and ventricular arrhythmias (especially when prescribed with azithromycin) 27; overdose is hazardous and difficult to treat.'

In France, chloroquine is not considered efficient versus covid, and many health accidents after taking. Quite dangerous if taken like a bonbon.

[Polyamorist]

What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.

Salaam Dreams and Arnold. The herd immunity threshold for coronavirus is generally quoted as 60%. But a recent model from Swedish and UK scientists found it could be just 43%. There's a lot of doubt. Wikipedia says 29 - 74%.

I guess in Stockholm they have 20-30% infected by now. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the R0 number, and if Sweden will end up better than its locked-down neighbors.

[ShooBree]

What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.

And trying to put the high death rates in Sweden on poor immigrants would be laughable, if not very sad, when even locally produced data show that it was essentially in care homes. And elderly people left exposed to wide virus circulation.

Swedes don't ALWAYS get it right, in spite of what some of them would like to believe. They even messed up the way they manage (d) immigration, and now, compared to their neighbours, Danmark, Finland, Norway, they look terribly bad, to the point that they will be excluded form the free tracel Scandinavian bubble. So you will continue frolicking in Stockholm's parks, but won't be allowed anywhere else during the summer!

Good luck my friend!

I've noticed that you got a inferiority complex going on but excess deaths shows that countries like Spain and Italy aren't even close to report the correct number of Covid-19 related deaths. Unlike Sweden and Belgium. In country after country the immigrant communities are showing a higher degree of mortality, that's a fact. Well, the point is that Swedish economy is doing much better than our neighbors. Too many countries have butchered their economies, 40 million newly unemployed in the US and the Mediterranean countries are now back begging EU and the North for more money. They've never been able to take care of themselves, like big ass children.

Sweden got it right as usual, better economy and statistics than Spain, Italy, Belgium, France and the UK despite not having any lockdown and the fact that many of those countries are grossly underreporting the number of deaths.

Swedes could easily go to Portugal if they wanted to, you should stop hating and start reading the news.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.exp...es-Madeira/amp

[Sirioja]

But we have deaths, not from virus, but killed by chloroquine with heart attack. Real facts, maybe French have more fragile heart than others. I won t take with my intense sports with heart in red zone for hours, sometimes under more than 35 Celsius degrees, in Bonette, Agnel, Izoard.

A bit like Viagra, be careful when You are not doctor, some medicine can kill.

[Dreams]

First, we talk about REGISTERED deaths. Sweden (and Belgium) are good on identifying the real death reason.

Different countries count Corona-deaths in different ways.
In other countries, deaths by Corona are obviously underestimated.

And here is the real reason to many deaths in Stockholm.

Second, most deaths in Stockholm are people from poor immigration ghettos, where people do not understand Swedish and have not been able to assimilate information about Corona.

On the other hand, immunity in Stockholm is now very high - well prepared for "the second wave".

What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.

And trying to put the high death rates in Sweden on poor immigrants would be laughable, if not very sad, when even locally produced data show that it was essentially in care homes. And elderly people left exposed to wide virus circulation.

Swedes don't ALWAYS get it right, in spite of what some of them would like to believe. They even messed up the way they manage (d) immigration, and now, compared to their neighbours, Danmark, Finland, Norway, they look terribly bad, to the point that they will be excluded form the free tracel Scandinavian bubble. So you will continue frolicking in Stockholm's parks, but won't be allowed anywhere else during the summer!

Good luck my friend!