Rants and WTF are you talking about and Coronavirus!

[DasBooty]

It seems to me that many mongers believe they are immune to Corona.

No one is immune, but not everyone is buying into the medias scaremongering.

The most common symptoms of COVID-19 are fever, tiredness, and dry cough. Some patients may have aches and pains, nasal congestion, runny nose, sore throat or diarrhea. These symptoms are usually mild and begin gradually. Some people become infected but don't develop any symptoms and don't feel unwell. Most people (about 80%) recover from the disease without needing special treatment. Around 1 out of every 6 people who gets COVID-19 becomes seriously ill and develops difficulty breathing. Older people, and those with underlying medical problems like high blood pressure, heart problems or diabetes, are more likely to develop serious illness. People with fever, cough and difficulty breathing should seek medical attention.

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-de...-coronaviruses#text=symptoms.

[Polyamorist]

What we have everywhere in actuality is controlled herd immunity. The point is not that Sweden is right, the point is to stagger it so that the death toll is not that high.

The current policy everywhere of shutting everything down is not sustainable. We will have to reopen the economy at some point. The question is, how.

Here is one professor who does not believe in social distancing, but in herd immunity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGC5sGdz4kg

I would suggest the best strategy is:

1. Strict isolation for over-60's and people who are sick of anything.

2. Everybody else carry on as normal.

So most of the under-60's will get COVID-19, but they will have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. A few will require hospitalization, but not enough to overwhelm the hospitals.

After a couple of months, herd immunity develops, the virus fizzles out, and the elderly can be readmitted into society.

Why wouldn't that work?

[Sirioja]

You certainly know more about the medical and scientific aspects of this than I do and I think almost anyone else here. So you think it has peaked in the US, I thought that most models had shown otherwise, it might very well have peaked in NYC, but I had thought in the US certainly not, but at most the US is only a few weeks behind Europe anyhow.

All I was doing was interpreting the statistical data and trying to explain it. Most of this is not well understand by quite a few people and their own prejudices factor into their assertions.

What you explained about the implications of the treating this illness were illuminating to me, no one, including the news has explained it as well as you have. Thank you for that.

Information and I think quite reliable, give more than 8000 deaths for only NY, and about 2000 deaths per day since more than one week in whole US, with more deaths among poor black and Latina people than rich white, even many obesity and diabetic. Doctors and same in France are about how many infected, but we can't really know because most numerous have no symptom, but a French investigation tell 1 infected may give to 3 people who may give to 9 , spreading. From my job, and how I was often asked: You can break, You can clean, you can do as you need, but get result we order you. So I judge how many deaths compare to population. I'm very happy for the so many infected who have no problem, even I know they are dangerous to spread. Of course, no game to compare Italy or Spain with Sweden. I just often take US example because I find interesting how the most powerful country which thought to be above virus, fell on so big trouble. I doubt Trump is able, but I think black Obama ideas about healthcare for all, were a real improvement for the most powerful country. France is not better than US versus virus, but healthcare is for all and even foreigners, and when I'm often mad about my tax when we have highest tax, but I will never complain to pay tax for healthcare for others, or for school. Of course I m a dreamer, but shouldn't everybody have access to healthcare, be able to read and understand world where we live? I would call this fair world.

[Pistons]

Germany has done a really good job indeed. The projected total deaths in Germany are slightly more than 7,000 by Aug. The other big countries in Eu have the following #.

UK 37,000+.

Spain 18,000+.

Italy 20,000+.

France 15,000+.

Italy, the much maligned country, has come back very strong. Models are forecasting very few deaths after May 1.

Sweden is at 13,000+ and NL is at 18,000+. Those are very high numbers for small populations. Not good management, and probably because they waited too long to lock down..

So you missed out on this article?

https://www.ecodibergamo.it/stories/...of_1347414_11/

That is for Italy, a country which has been fairly good at testing people. With 15.935 tests per 1 M. In Comparison, Germany has 15.730 tests per 1 M. So Italian numbers are more accurate than German numbers. And in Italy, it seems they are only managing to pick up on about 44% of deaths from the virus.

New York for comparison tests 22.478 per 1 M, so figures there are probably a bit more precise. But Spain, UK and France has been very sloppy, so you can probably multiply it by 3-4 in those countries. Meaning for example France now has probably over 50 000 deaths. Hi Sirioja, remembers what we discussed a few days ago?

But of course, make your own number calculations. I will stick to mine. For India for example, with just 137 tests per 1 M, I suspect the real figures can probably be multiplied by 100-150. And Brazil is underepoting by 50+ times. And Africa pretty much doesn't have any testing capacity worth recognizing at all. But US figures shows Africans are 6 times more at risk than whites. Questions is just is that is due to the reasons the officials claim. I personally think the genetic factors play a larger role in all of this, so Africa will be hit harder than anywhere else. They will also face the same 'Hunger Games' scenario India is experiencing. Further increasing the death numbers from other non-corona related deaths. So there are no epicenters any longer its pretty global.

[Sirioja]

I think we should stop talking about issue that cannot be solved in sex forum LOL, so let keep it last.

Some nations are not honest, good example is China. It is big nation now thanks to Japan for giving them technology and money via ODA to begin with if you know some politic (google ODA), but they are not honest government there, this also goes to Russia too, and also south Korea. In political slug, we call it the red team.

As for poor nations, virus has not got there yet, it is still spreading, and we begin to see it in Africa just recently like it took some time to get to Europe and USA and during that time Japan was giving warning because we are the first G7 nation with one of the most advance medical nation with many biggest medical companies in the world to get it as China is right next to us, but Europe and USA then thought it is a problem on other side of the world and they did not even begin preparing life support equipment production or even masks.

Also poor nations do not even have ways to test it, so they won't even know and if you can do mild to strong or even total lock down now, it is better not to test it. Testing do not do much beside sending them home or give them Avigan etc if they have enough Avigan, which nobody have as of now, we are making it now and it will be ready to ship out to 20 nations in May, even then you should save them for rainy days. You do not want cluster infections at hospital and collapse of medical system like what happened in USA and Europe. There was no point for those people to rush to hospital as they could not do much beside help those are in real need, which they could not due to over capacity of patients who do not need to be there..

Can you believe virus was not in FKK land, quite impossible it was not, even when was taken temperature at Sharks entry, but most infected don t have any symptom. Isn't also virus spreading in Japan islands towns? And I'm pretty sure virus will be in FKK land when will reopen, with so many guys and girls from all over the world. Anyway, interesting to have Japanese opinion about other Asian countries, but don t You mean North Korea for red, or really South? Russia is not so red anymore, but for sure not land of truth nor real freedom, not yet, not under Putin. Ana would shout about me if she heard me saying this about Putin who gave pride again to Russians from Moscow or Peter or Sotchi, when Russia was falling after the wall. Romania fell, ex DDR was lucky to become Germany.

[Pistons]

I am kinda going against the flood here and suspect Sweden did the right move in not closing down as much. The only thing they should have done better was to test far more than they have. You cannot test enough in order to get real data.

Because the only way I see it now, is that we have to burn this thing out. Although not destroying the health system, we need to keep it at max capacity in order to burn it out as quickly as possible. Otherwise, the virus will just mutate thousands of times before we reach herd imunity. And the more it mutates, the harder it will get to reach herd imunity. And also, the less effective vaccines will become. Actually, vaccines will be 99.99% useless from day one is my prediction due to the mutation rates some scientists are seing.

So basically, people will just have to die. A lot of people. It is the only way for society to get back to where we were. Otherwise, we'll just be herds in a cage for the rest of our lives. And hell, even Netflix, HBO and others are putting TV shows on hold, and gyms are closed. So this is getting boring fast.

[McAdonis]

Regarding minority death, oh hell, I work in healthcare and see the reason first hand. First, only 9% of people in America do not have access to health insurance, keep that in mind. 91% have coverage, that may not be universal but it sure is probably much higher than the number you were thinking. The difference between black and white insurance coverage is only 2-3%, that does not explain the current disparity in covid mortality.

The 2-3 percent difference in coverage you speak of is maybe less problematic under normal circumstances. But when there is a respiratory illness that is highly contagious, these untreated and undiagnosed are going to pose a danger to everybody around them. Illegal brown immigrants are not going to seek treatment for fear of being deported. Also if someone does not receive pay while they are sick (like are beloved WGs), they are more likely to go to work even if they have symptoms. All these factors could accelerate the spread.

You know what does? Cultural behavior leading to comorbidities. Healthy diet and fitness just isn't as integrated into the black and brown cultures. Their lower economic situations does not encourage physical health to be a main priority. Access to primary care may be a factor, but hardly the major player here.

Yes perhaps poor diet and fitness is 80 percent of the problem, but the liberals and academics believe that de-facto segregation plays a role in economic outcomes which in turn affects both lifestyle and health outcomes. According to Harvard School of Public Health journal back in 2016:

where we live determines opportunities to access high-quality education, employment, housing, fresh foods or outdoor space all contributors to our health.

"Health builds from where we live, learn, work and play and only secondarily in the doctors office.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/health-disparities-between-blacks-and-whites-run-deep/.

Being poor, being Black, living in a dangerous community, and seeing negative outcomes for yourself, your friends, and your family affects stress levels:

In fact, merely being black in America triggers exposure to stressors linked to premature biological aging. Research indicates that blacks get sick at younger ages, have more severe illnesses and are aging, biologically, more rapidly than whites. Scientists call this the "weathering effect," or the result of cumulative stress.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/policy-dose/articles/2016-04-14/theres-a-huge-health-equity-gap-between-whites-and-minorities.

Black and brown communities are situated in areas with high air and toxic pollution. Black children are 500 times more likely to die from asthma:

These negative health effects just get worse as you get older. Throughout your life, you're accumulating air pollution exposures, says Rachel Nethery, a biostatistician at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health who co-authored the new pre-print. Air pollution exposure in young adults has been linked to abnormal changes in the blood, which can lead to heart disease and high blood pressure later in life, both risk factors for severe and fatal Covid-19 cases. In adults, this has been closely associated with cardiovascular disease and diabetes.

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/11/21217040/coronavirus-in-us-air-pollution-asthma-black-americans

[Delta Indigo]

Germany has done a really good job indeed. The projected total deaths in Germany are slightly more than 7,000 by Aug. The other big countries in Eu have the following #.

UK 37,000+.

Spain 18,000+.

Italy 20,000+.

France 15,000+.

Italy, the much maligned country, has come back very strong. Models are forecasting very few deaths after May 1.

Sweden is at 13,000+ and NL is at 18,000+. Those are very high numbers for small populations. Not good management, and probably because they waited too long to lock down.

USA itself is projected to have 61,000+ deaths. Unfortunately, NYC accounted for so many of US deaths, and will by the time this ends.

As for excessive suffering in minority populations, it is an unfortunate fact. We do not have universal free healthcare as they do in Europe, and hence death and suffering will follow income and wealth axis in USA, at least at a broad statistical level.

Our beloved Romania is supposedly doing a fabulous job. Just 700+ total deaths by Aug. Bulgaria is even better at 225+. Poland is at 2300+. I guess they locked down when the rest of Europe and US did, and they didn't have too many people traveling back and forth between them to Italy or Asia.

These projections are in line with what I would expect observing the statistical data thus far. However some of these figures, Bulgaria, Romania and even Poland are highly suspect, the quality of data varies from country to country and the political environment can influence the quality of data in certain countries far more than others, ie the figures in Romania and Bulgaria would be even more suspect due to this.

In Poland, as of now they are still proceeding with presidential elections despite the health implications since the ruling party thinks it can win easily. Some modelling has shown that holding these presidential elections even with many precautions will lead to a further 100,000 infections. I think if these elections go ahead, then the numbers for Poland could spiral. Also many of the most enthusiastic supporters of the ruling party are old people who will come out to vote and younger supporters of the opposition will stay home. That means a disproportionate share of the voting public on election day are vulnerable, what will that do to the death toll?

The one place where this could explode all over the place due to the late lockdown is Metropolitan Tokyo, I really hope not, since I have a vulnerable cousin living there, however this could eclipse the outbreak in NYC.

[Delta Indigo]

Yet New York City mortality rates are still lower than these "hard hit" nations. NYC is one of the most densely populated cities, if not the most in the western world, and the death rate of those infected is still lower than entire countries even accounting for the countryside population in those nations. As of today, 5800 deaths in New York county with 92,000 cases. That's 6.7%. Several European countries are sitting at a 10% case fatality rate. At this point, the US is far enough along the timeline to have peaked. Intubation rates and hospitalization rates have gone down in the past 3 days in New York. Other areas will see a surge but it will not be as bad as New York. The US is already on the plateau phase and while deaths will continue, death rates will decrease even more.

Regarding treatment, I transitioned to the ICU last week and effective protocols have already been established. Medicine is more complex than the public who thinks that a magic medication will come "cure" this. As with all advanced viral respiratory illnesses, symptom management is the treatment. Maintaining adequate ventilation whether it is via ventilator or a simple nasal cannula, sepsis control through blood pressure management and intravenous hydration, and some antibiotics to address secondary infections. That's all there is to do. Some antiviral therapies may help but that is hardly concretely established in the literature.

You certainly know more about the medical and scientific aspects of this than I do and I think almost anyone else here. So you think it has peaked in the US, I thought that most models had shown otherwise, it might very well have peaked in NYC, but I had thought in the US certainly not, but at most the US is only a few weeks behind Europe anyhow.

All I was doing was interpreting the statistical data and trying to explain it. Most of this is not well understand by quite a few people and their own prejudices factor into their assertions.

What you explained about the implications of treating this illness were illuminating to me, no one, including the news has explained it as well as you have. Thank you for that.

[ShooBree]

Who cares if you live in Sweden? I use to work and live in Sweden for a number of years in Malmo and other areas of the country. I traveled to over 100+ countries for work and play. Not sure why you would imply living in Sweden means you know more than others, you're a monger, not a politician.

My profession as a health scientist would make me well aware of COVID-19 and the effects on the economy and the people. Despite Sweden's apprehension, I can tell you that they could have better managed the crisis. Please refrain from using your citizenship as an automatic "we should trust you". Clearly, many forum members think otherwise.

You are delusional if you don't understand that I know much more than you do about the situation in Sweden because, unlike you, I live in Sweden and follow the national news closely. You are just a monger.

[Sirioja]

Germany has done a really good job indeed. The projected total deaths in Germany are slightly more than 7,000 by Aug. The other big countries in Eu have the following #.

UK 37,000+.

Spain 18,000+.

Italy 20,000+.

France 15,000+.

Italy, the much maligned country, has come back very strong. Models are forecasting very few deaths after May 1.

Sweden is at 13,000+ and NL is at 18,000+. Those are very high numbers for small populations. Not good management, and probably because they waited too long to lock down..

I don't know where you get these figures, but France was already nearly 14.000 deaths yesterday which was first not too many deaths day in this so black week, and when only really sick, but all very sick were treated in our hospitals with highest level equipment, but many couldn't be saved, even under intensive care, and I'm afraid Pistons was right, when I know France medical level, I never thought we would have 20.000 deaths, we lost this war, too many deaths, even much less than 1 % risk if you are less than 70 yo, not fat nor diabetic and no lungs nor heart problems, nor cancer. Confined which will be extended over 15 April, is told to save less than 3000 life since 17 March. Italy extend to 3 May. Spain which is down under think to close borders versus Summer tourism, ready to kill their economy. When UK and US don t really respect confined, when french police give penalties, would be really interesting to see real results for NL and Sweden with no confined, even of course can t compare with Italy and Spain where people live with old parents and killed them loving them. Anyway, french thank their doctors, I don t think many of those who were not saved, could have been, when we even used chloroquine, with few deaths from heart problems. Big shame for some who tried to make money, stealing masks, ventilators, those who write or tell to nurses or firemen or hospitals cleaner to stay away, to leave flat or building, because they are at risk about virus. Wish these shameful will be prosecuted and wish they won t need staff they insult because they don t deserve these insulted staff take risks for them. Some medical or safety staff died in this sad war.

[The Cane]

Not sure why you would imply living in Sweden means you know more than others, you're a monger, not a politician.

I agree that one does not necessarily know more than somebody else simply by virtue of their nationality. But, I wish that mongers would stop putting other mongers down precisely because they are mongers (seeing a lot of this lately in several threads). Conversely, somebody doesn't necessarily know less than somebody else simply by virtue of the fact of being a monger. There are many well-traveled, well-educated, intelligent people here from literally all walks of life. I would even bet a few politicians! So, when we have a disagreement with one of our mongering brothers, let us not criticize them for being a monger, and then use that as a basis to discount the legitimacy and validity of what they say. After all. Remember. If you're here, then you are a monger too! So if you show disdain towards somebody else for being a monger, then you show disdain for yourself.

[ShooBree]

Germany has done a really good job indeed. The projected total deaths in Germany are slightly more than 7,000 by Aug. The other big countries in Eu have the following #.

UK 37,000+.

Spain 18,000+.

Italy 20,000+.

France 15,000+.

Italy, the much maligned country, has come back very strong. Models are forecasting very few deaths after May 1.

Sweden is at 13,000+ and NL is at 18,000+. Those are very high numbers for small populations. Not good management, and probably because they waited too long to lock down.

USA itself is projected to have 61,000+ deaths. Unfortunately, NYC accounted for so many of US deaths, and will by the time this ends.

As for excessive suffering in minority populations, it is an unfortunate fact. We do not have universal free healthcare as they do in Europe, and hence death and suffering will follow income and wealth axis in USA, at least at a broad statistical level..

In Italy 25000 died because of the influenza during the 2015/2016 winter season, no lockdowns then. The focus on deaths made us destroy the economy and we might walk into a new Great Depression. Maybe it would have been better to let nature take it's course as we always have done before in history.

[Mr Ho]

Isn't 9% = 30 millions people, half France, who can't afford healthcare, 11 millions illegal, Hart island for poor when dying, but at least, compare to Asia, we have US figures. Only facts, and my country is also not perfect, but people have healthcare, I pay tax for this, even for foreigners to have healthcare in France.

The best health care one can receive is called BBBJ for the rate of 50 euro per 30 min LOL!

German FKK BBBJ is the best revitalization therapy for your soul LOL! You can even choose your international nurse who provide you BBBJ therapy as you wish LOL!

Clinic FKK LOL!

[AZN Monger]

The coronavirus is a giant problem for the Swedish economy, otherwise not so much. I know that many people in other countries wishes that they had the freedom that we have in Sweden.

The government haven't done much and the changes they are contemplating are small stuff like closing down certain bars and restaurants. As I, unlike you, live in Sweden and actually read and follow the news closely, I can safely say that you don't know what you are talking about.

Sweden's infected rate per million is lower than the one of Norway, Denmark, Israel, Austria and the list goes on, so please refrain from spreading disinformation.

Who cares if you live in Sweden? I use to work and live in Sweden for a number of years in Malmo and other areas of the country. I traveled to over 100+ countries for work and play. Not sure why you would imply living in Sweden means you know more than others, you're a monger, not a politician.

My profession as a health scientist would make me well aware of COVID-19 and the effects on the economy and the people. Despite Sweden's apprehension, I can tell you that they could have better managed the crisis. Please refrain from using your citizenship as an automatic "we should trust you". Clearly, many forum members think otherwise.