Monterrey

[Dad Fun 555]

many foreign visitors are not the ones getting gunned down. according to the us state dept over 5 million us citizens visit mexico each year. last year a little over a 100 were killed, and about 70 americans remain missing from the last several years. it is thus impossible that many tourists are getting gunned down in narco violence.

even if it is just 1 over the past millenimum, it is still higher than the total number of individuals prosecuted for importing personal quantities of viagra into us without a prescription (zero).

words like "generally" and "usually" as pertaining to us customs practices do not provide 100% proof against you getting in trouble for not declaring rxn drugs. i agree few if any people get into serious trouble for bringing in viagra or other harmless drugs undeclared without a rxn. however, this will not protect you against them taking your time and your merchandise. what are you going to do if they say no and take it? nothing if you are smart. a supervisor won't do much in front of you and the agent if you are having problems unless the agent is way out of line. they will maintain a united front. crossing back from tijuana to san diego, i asked about viagra and the agent assured me you need a rxn or they will take it. this is only one agent speaking but still. just don't complain on here is you get into trouble if they want to make an example out you which they can at any point.

i wouldn't call having something seized "getting in trouble". customs can seize whatever they want for further review before it's cleared but that doesn't mean there was any suspiscion of wrongdoing. it is just one of the facts of life about crossing an international border. they can also xray your stomach and conduct a full cavity search. if you don't like it then don't cross the border. whether or not it's worth fighting for your $20 bottle of maxifort back may depend on the value of your time.

note that i never said anything about "undeclared". in the dozens of time i have imported viagra / maxifort into us, i always fully declared it. of course if you fail to declare something they have every right to confirep001e it. whether it is a banana, or a case of codeine. it is the folks who don't declare that get into trouble.

it is disappointing to hear that there are some folks who will let customs seize their property without ever contesting it. it just makes it easier for them to keep doing it in the future if people don't put up a fight.

a younger solo man carrying viagra illegally is a better poster child for prosecution than an elderly couple returning from abroad. also, i have had nonscheduled clomid seized by customs via mail order. they took it and sent the empty packages with a note saying i can contest the seizure and provided a case number. no way was i going to contest. in contrast, my friend had his testosterone ethanate injections seized but not his accompanying clomid. again they provided a letter and a case number but as expected didn't follow up on it. these were the only times out of many orders however.

was it properly declared? as i said above, if you don't properly declare something then of course it has a chance to be seized because you are not following the rules. also i understand the rules differ for mail order vs personally carrying across the border. i thought that mail order was not generally accepted due to the commercial nature (they don't want foreign pharmacies to be deal directly with residents). my experience is in carrying into us personally and in dozens of times it has never been seized.

[Dad Fun 555]

You know another issue occurs to me as well, and that is the potential for problems with respect to entry from the US to another country without a valid prescription. Try getting away with some of the things people do on a regular basis and think nothing of it, stuff that we might otherwise consider minor virtually meaningless infractions. Try it in a place like Singapore for example. They will frickin' execute you in short order for drug violations, cane you for graffiti on the walls, spitting gum on the sidewalk, or missing the trash container with your gum wrapper.

As I wrote earlier in the thread, I have brought Mexican generic Viagra (Maxifort) not into just US but about 10 different countries, and never had a problem. As I said, I prefer it to generics available in Asia and elsewhere. Of course in the cases where I have been thoroughly searched, they weren't looking for medications. The list of controlled substances is fairly standardized internationally. Maybe there is some country where Viagra is banned but generally the laws medications are relatively lax internationally.

Any country would have to be pretty gutsy politically to prosecute a foreigner for attempting to import personal quantities of Viagra without a prescription. It would be a horrible diplomatic move and it wouldn't stand up to international scrutiny. If it came to that it would probably be a case where you were of an enemy nationality, they didn't like you, and they couldn't find anything else to throw at you.

Ironically the only case of I've heard of folks getting into trouble for having Viagra without a prescription is on local police shakedowns in the various red light diatribe in northern Mexico.

[Bbond]

two incidents i have experienced with cbp, not medicine related:

once driving back from juarez with a friend. we both had a quart of liquor to declare, and one small bottle we had forgotten about in the glove box.

well on that day they decided to open the glove box, and there it was, holy shit, smugglers. set to secondeary, car searched completely. we were taken inside for a background investigation,

maybe and hour later they came back and said instead of the penality they were going to allow us to pay the duty on the small bottle. i asked what the duty was, $1. 17,

i aked what the penality would have been, confirep001ion. nice work cbp, stopped a couple smugglers, made $1. 17 for your efforts.

another time was coming back from mazatlan with wife and kids. driving a pick-up truck with a camper shell. had an ice chest setting in the very back of the truck box, for easy access to cold drinks and food.

female cbp officer ask what we were bringing back, i said nothing to declare. she walked back and opened the ice chest, there was 3 small mangoes we had forgotten to remove, not hidden, right there easily seen when.

holy shit, she freaked out, literally screaming talking 100 mph. undeclared fruit, that is illegal, that is a serious violation, that is a fine, set us to secondary.

pulled in to secondary, guy there asks what's up, told her the lady set us because we forgot we had some fruit. he asked "that's it", i said yes sir, he opens ice chest, takes mangoes and throws them in trash can. his next words?

"you guys get out of here, have a good trip."

[Member #3453]

words like "generally" and "usually" as pertaining to us customs practices do not provide 100% proof against you getting in trouble for not declaring rxn drugs.

there you go. these are the kinds of stories i have been hearing from mongers for the last thirty years with regard to the border as it relates to bringing meds in from foreign countries without a prescription. most of them haven't ended up in jail, or had anything terribly serious happen to them that i recall hearing about. but, none the less, the "potential" does exist. after all, if they can legally confirep001e it, they can legally "push you around," figuratively speaking.

and, for me, it isn't only just a matter of our risking being prosecuted necessarily. it's more than just that. from many worldly destinations, it can sometimes literally take an entire day to travel between the us and almost anywhere, even cities within the us to mexico.

air travel is sooooo fucked up these days that the hassles with respect to air travel are huge these days. the days of just jumping on an airplane, no security, etc...are gone. so, the "hassle factor," at least for me, is mostly the issue, and the potential for actually having legal problems is way down on the list of concerns.

as you said, we probably would not have anything happen other than to have our stuff confirep001ed. but...if they can and do confirep001e it, which i have heard over the years is more often the practice, they can do more to you if they decide to. if they consider it contraband, and especially if you are trying to hide it, then they might decide to make an example out of you, and let the other guy pass without so much as a harsh word. if they consider it contraband, and you try to hide it rather than declaring it, there are statutes they can hang their hats on if they want to. if you just say, "oh, sorry, forget it was in there...hardy har har" how many bs stories do you think they've heard that they're going to believe your line of bs?

and, hey, they get all "tweaked" even if you have your cell phone on while you're waiting in the frickin line...what might they do if you push them over the edge trying to bring what they might construe as contraband into the us. and, if you do declare it, and they confirep001e it, it's like throwing money down the toilet.

you know another issue occurs to me as well, and that is the potential for problems with respect to entry from the us to another country without a valid prescription. try getting away with some of the things people do on a regular basis and think nothing of it, stuff that we might otherwise consider minor virtually meaningless infractions. try it in a place like singapore for example. they will frickin' execute you in short order for drug violations, cane you for graffiti on the walls, spitting gum on the sidewalk, or missing the trash container with your gum wrapper.

it doesn't take much to provoke a lower level government worker, many of which are continually dealing with the unfair internal politics of large bureaucratic agencies on an hourly basis, to enjoy and even relish having some pitiless control over what they consider to be their adversaries is very tempting, and almost therapeutic for some.

the culture with law enforcement is always "them" or "us." that's a huge disadvantage for those of us that are "us" and not "them."

[Duke Of Pussy]

Even the supervisory officer of US Customs says that it "it is really not a problem" to import non-controlled medication into US without a prescription for personal use. Really, what more permission do you need? The blanket "you need a prescription for every medication" you see in travel guides is more of generic, better safe than sorry, advice targeted at newbie travelers who do not understand the legal subtleties of importing medication, and the various classifications. Once you familiarize yourself with what documentation is needed for classification of medication you are importing you can find out if it is needed for the particular medication of interest. Sometimes you see cases of people getting busted for steroids or narcotics on the border, but given the ease even in Mexico of obtaining Viagra there must be orders of more magnitude if Viagra imports compared to controlled medications. Yet there has never been a legal case against an individual for importing personal quantities of Viagra into US.

Your chance of dying as an innocent bystander in a narco shootout in Mexico (happens to dozens, if not hundreds, of individuals. Many of them foreign visitors. Every year) is a lot higher than getting prosecuted by US for importing personal quantities of Viagra. That has never happened. Yes maybe there is a chance some clueless law enforcement agents and prosecutor would bring it to trial. That has never happened before, so I guess the chance of it happening based in historical frequency of past events is lower than the airplane you arrived in getting bombed out by terrorists, or getting hit by lightning. The worse case practical scenario probably is an agent on his first 15 minutes of the job thinks he is making a big smuggling bust. But talking to a supervisor should get you on your way quickly. Of course, if crossing a border brings butterflies to your stomach, then by all means just purchase Viagra locally. That's what I would probably advise for most folks. It doesn't save you anything if it just brings you stress.

Many foreign visitors are not the ones getting gunned down. According to the US State Dept over 5 million US citizens visit mexico each year. Last year a little over a 100 were killed, and about 70 Americans remain missing from the last several years. It is thus impossible that many tourists are getting gunned down in narco violence.

Words like "generally" and "usually" as pertaining to US customs practices do not provide 100% proof against you getting in trouble for not declaring rxn drugs. I agree few if any people get into serious trouble for bringing in viagra or other harmless drugs undeclared without a rxn. However, this will not protect you against them taking your time and your merchandise. What are you going to do if they say no and take it? Nothing if you are smart. A supervisor won't do much in front of you and the agent if you are having problems unless the agent is way out of line. They will maintain a united front. Crossing back from Tijuana to San Diego, I asked about Viagra and the agent assured me you need a rxn or they will take it. This is only one agent speaking but still. Just don't complain on here is you get into trouble if they want to make an example out you which they can at any point. A younger solo man carrying viagra illegally is a better poster child for prosecution than an elderly couple returning from abroad. Also, I have had nonscheduled Clomid seized by customs via mail order. They took it and sent the empty packages with a note saying I can contest the seizure and provided a case number. No way was I going to contest. In contrast, my friend had his testosterone ethanate injections seized but not his accompanying clomid. Again they provided a letter and a case number but as expected didn't follow up on it. These were the only times out of many orders however.

There is no fool proof way in Mexico or the US to have Viagra without prescription, but I agree the risks are very low. I personally like the mail order route to save all the money as the pills this way are only about $2 a piece. And I get by on quarter or half tabs of viagra so a $40 order lasts me forever.

[MonterreyDude]

"But, I think yes, grey area, some CBP agents just do their job and don't look to hassle anyone unnecessarily, others will go out of their way to be a pain in the butt, just because they can."

Well said. Exactly the point.

They will do it because they can. Same as in Mexico.

And this is becoming more common in the US as the years pass and more radical laws are passed in your country.

Well, in that particular link, find this statement:

"So long as it is not a controlled substance and is meant for personal use, there really is no issue with that," says the USA Customs and Border Protection's Cirillo.

But, I think yes, grey area, some CBP agents just do their job and don't look to hassle anyone unnecessarily, others will go out of their way to be a pain in the butt, just because they can.

[Dad Fun 555]

Even the supervisory officer of US Customs says that it "it is really not a problem" to import non-controlled medication into US without a prescription for personal use. Really, what more permission do you need? The blanket "you need a prescription for every medication" you see in travel guides is more of generic, better safe than sorry, advice targeted at newbie travelers who do not understand the legal subtleties of importing medication, and the various classifications. Once you familiarize yourself with what documentation is needed for classification of medication you are importing you can find out if it is needed for the particular medication of interest. Sometimes you see cases of people getting busted for steroids or narcotics on the border, but given the ease even in Mexico of obtaining Viagra there must be orders of more magnitude if Viagra imports compared to controlled medications. Yet there has never been a legal case against an individual for importing personal quantities of Viagra into US.

Your chance of dying as an innocent bystander in a narco shootout in Mexico (happens to dozens, if not hundreds, of individuals. Many of them foreign visitors. Every year) is a lot higher than getting prosecuted by US for importing personal quantities of Viagra. That has never happened. Yes maybe there is a chance some clueless law enforcement agents and prosecutor would bring it to trial. That has never happened before, so I guess the chance of it happening based in historical frequency of past events is lower than the airplane you arrived in getting bombed out by terrorists, or getting hit by lightning. The worse case practical scenario probably is an agent on his first 15 minutes of the job thinks he is making a big smuggling bust. But talking to a supervisor should get you on your way quickly. Of course, if crossing a border brings butterflies to your stomach, then by all means just purchase Viagra locally. That's what I would probably advise for most folks. It doesn't save you anything if it just brings you stress.

[Bbond]

Grey Area Alert.

Traveling with medicine? Carry a prescription.

http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-tr-healthy16jul16

As I always say. Let's see the link?

Benefit of the doubt.

Well, in that particular link, find this statement:

"So long as it is not a controlled substance and is meant for personal use, there really is no issue with that," says the USA Customs and Border Protection's Cirillo.

But, I think yes, grey area, some CBP agents just do their job and don't look to hassle anyone unnecessarily, others will go out of their way to be a pain in the butt, just because they can.

[Member #3453]

My girlfriend has been a sobbing wreck the last couple of days because her friend was murdered in a famous night club in Barrio Antiguo over the weekend. Grisly type of murder which only happens in Mexico where they took away the body and nobody knows where it is.

My sincerest condolences to your girlfriend. Really, it is very tragic, and I mean that sincerely...

But, again, the circumstances you describe have very little to so with the seedy side of town where we like to frequent the strip clubs. The circumstances of the crime suggest that the victim was not just a random, innocent patron of a night club.

Logically, random murders in a night club, where the body(s) are carted off by the perpetrators suggests that the individuals involved were "TARGETED." They aren't targeted for no reason. But, someone specifically murdered in a night club whose body is carted off suggests something more than a random act of violence for the sake of robbery, etc...Certainly, in the US, there are constant reminders that collateral damage happens to innocent bystanders...there are nightly news stories in the US of crimes that are just as heinous.

Most of the perpetrators of these heinous crimes in Mexico lately, aren't pros, and many of them aren't particularly intelligent with respect to being caught for their crimes. A pro doesn't bring the DNA from the scene of the crime with him.

My contention with respect to the violence has been that mongers are not in the same kind of danger as persons that have ties to cartels, or are themselves engaging in criminal acts, other than to potentially be collateral damage from the carelessness of these want to be gangster types acting out their own perceived stereotype behavior, or the army and police as they sometimes carelessly display a disregard for public safety in fighting the gangsters.

I am not in denial that the violence exists, just that the average monger who is not engaging in cartel affiliations, or criminal activities, (ie: an innocent, relatively obscure mongering visitor to the area) , is not at any particular added risk by visiting the clubs on the "seedy" side of Monterrey.

An incident in Bario Antiqua doesn't relate to what goes on at Villagran and Carlos Salazar. I have heard of numerous issues at the nightclubs of Bario Antigua. I would not recommend going there late at night. Frankly, that's where the high rolling gangster types are, spreading their money around, playing the big shot.

Most of their type that are frequenting the upscale establishments in Bario Antiqua aren't particularly interested in rubbing elbows with low class factory worker who doesn't have two pesos to rub together, not enough money to take girls up for a privado, but have to sit around the outskirts of the stage to cop a feel!

There certainly are gang members in the clubs around Villagran and Carlos Salizar, but those areas, while seemingly seedy, and seemingly ripe for being a hot bed of potentially dangerous activity, aren't, statistically. Bario Antigua, IS, statistically...

With respect to the media, they sensationalize everything for profit! Everywhere, the US, Mexico, EVERYWHERE!

My point is that through the sensationalizing heinous crimes, they encourage, and often perpetuate, the very worst offenders in a society of miscreants that crave media attention, and notoriety, the wanna be's who think that's what professional criminals do, and want to exhibit the stereotype by conducting what they perceive is the behavior that will gain them entry into the club. These miscreants have more money than they've ever had in their entire short lives, they live for today, and they would gladly trade 2 years of living large for what might otherwise be the remaining 60 years of their lives.

With respect to my criticism of media's role, most of the violence is NOT cartel business, but freelancers behaving like they think they have to behave to be the wanna be's they crave being. Their behavior is the result of the HYPE perpetrated by sensationalized media coverage as these gangster wanna be's conduct themselves in sync with what they perceive is the behavior of high rolling criminal types, a stereotype perpetrated by media in an effort to package their coverage, and sell more product, a vicious, and self promoting, self perpetuating of the stereotype they created for profit.

[Member #3453]

Since you are the type who wants everything guaranteed and spelled out in every detail, clearly it is in your interest to just acquire Viagra through conventional means and not taking risk. Nothing wrong with that, but please don't project your overly cautious advice onto bigger risk takers.

I've sighted the specific statutes governing the importation of prescription drugs that are not FDA approved, and the responsibility of US Customs to enforce those laws. I do not advocate that you take any precautions. Please, be my guest, do as you please.

I mean no disrespect, nor am I accusing you of being a liar. You'll hopefully forgive me if I choose to gather more testimonials of what is legal before I run out, buy a bunch of restricted drugs, and attempt coming across the border with them on the testimonial of just one person. It probably wouldn't result in any issues at all...I don't doubt the face value of the validity of your claims. But, you also won't find me running out on the recommendations of one person, and testing a system that is fraught with as much ambiguity as this issue has been over the years.

As for sighting instances of anyone being prosecuted, I can double damn guarantee you I can find examples of individuals charged with possession of "restricted" drugs without a prescription. Problem is, I could, but I won't waste the time doing it.

Mine is merely a personal opinion about whether bringing them in is something that could delay you, and possibly cause you to be legally hassled by the "right" Customs Agent. I merely said that over the past 30 years I have read within other forums, and talked to numbers of other mongers that have expressed their own apprehensions at bringing prescription drugs, and yes, legally restricted ones, into the US from foreign sources without a prescription, some of which did have repercussions. I can not relate them specifically now because I simply did not document them for presentation.

Over thirty years, I am sure policies with the Customs Service have changed over time. Perhaps at one time they were paying significantly more attention to things like antibiotics being brought back into the country, etc...Going that far back, Viagra was not marketed thirty years ago, and it's only relatively recently been available generically.

But, it isn't really about which "restricted drug" it might be, it's about whether you are legally permitted to possess or procure a prescription drug without a prescription. There are State laws also regulating this. But, for the purposes of this forum, granted, we're talking Federal Customs Regulations.

I do know a little something about application of the law, and how statutes exist that are so buried and so obscure that it would take a paralegal three weeks to find them. Believe me, one thing that I am absolutely sure of is that they can be found, and used to prosecute. Of that, I am 100% certain, and would bet my life on it. Everyone should keep something in mind about Government Officials, were they trying to make some other charge stick, it would potentially be just another thing they could use to heap on the pile to bury you even further.

Is it likely to occur to you or me within the context of our reentering the US, innocently? Probably not. But, testing out something that in my mind has always been, up to now, ambiguous, has me making a decision to error on the side of caution rather than being potentially delayed or hassled at the border when I am trying to make connecting flights, etc...

Something else to keep in mind...what was considered an agent's "discretion" today is sometimes "strict enforcement" tomorrow, and usually with little or no notice. The statutes do exist, and I sited them for you. If, in fact, they are "tolerant" today, they could implement a "no tolerance" guideline tomorrow based on those statues alone with respect to FDA regulations.

Also, Monterreydude, the links you posted were no longer active.

[MonterreyDude]

Grey Area Alert.

Please explain this. Why is he in trouble?

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/1356467

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0.2933, 201065, 00. Html.

You see. The problem is you are subscribing to an urban legend: "The US policy is to allow a "personal supply"of drugs without much question. That usually means a 30 day supply. It is rarely checked."

THAT is the thing. And it is not true.

I just want to see you get caught in this grey area. Plus and not excluding ALL you memory media will be searched.

You did know that your pics, laptop, cameras. Can be checked without a warrant?

I guess not.

By the way. If you Google or Yahoo "do I need a prescription to carry viagra" I get your answers in your post. But you missed this one:

Traveling with medicine? Carry a prescription.

http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-tr-healthy16jul16

As I always say... let's see the link?
Benefit of the doubt.

My girlfriend has been a sobbing wreck the last couple of days because her friend was murdered in a famous night club in Barrio Antiguo over the weekend. Grisly type of murder which only happens in Mexico where they took away the body and nobody knows where it is. Now everybody is attending candlelight vigils in memory. Thought I read a statistic recently that said something like 1 in 7 Mexicans knows somebody killed in the conflict. Yes I know in your 30 years of going to Monterrey you never met anybody affected by the conflict. Do you know more than 7 people there? Maybe you should buy a lottery ticket. Or maybe it is all just an conspiracy by international media.

So you have examples of people being prosecuted for smuggling personal quantities of Viagra into US without a prescription? Please provide reference, I am really interested. Please cite just one case.

There are plenty of blogs and other forums about this subject if you are interested. To me the law is clear and unambiguous that is legal to import personal quantities of Viagra into US (or anywhere) without a prescription. I am comfortable and confident doing it, it is not a big deal to me at all. Clearly you are not convinced, so best that you avoid it. Since you are the type who wants everything guaranteed and spelled out in every detail, clearly it is in your interest to just acquire Viagra through conventional means and not taking risk. Nothing wrong with that, but please don't project your overly cautious advice onto bigger risk takers.

[Dad Fun 555]

When I am hitting the streets of Monterrey, I have never experienced the "narco terrorist" effect you speak of, and that's why I have absolutely no concerns about visiting the bars on Villagran, and along Madero, which must be the supposedly seedy neighborhoods referred to.

My girlfriend has been a sobbing wreck the last couple of days because her friend was murdered in a famous night club in Barrio Antiguo over the weekend. Grisly type of murder which only happens in Mexico where they took away the body and nobody knows where it is. Now everybody is attending candlelight vigils in memory. Thought I read a statistic recently that said something like 1 in 7 Mexicans knows somebody killed in the conflict. Yes I know in your 30 years of going to Monterrey you never met anybody affected by the conflict. Do you know more than 7 people there? Maybe you should buy a lottery ticket. Or maybe it is all just an conspiracy by international media.

I have only heard of ONE testimonial in my entire experience with mongering for the last 30 years that mongers can freely pass through US Customs with prescription medications without a prescription. I am not calling into question the validity of those experiences. I am merely saying that it is contrary to what I have heard for the last thirty years.

So you have examples of people being prosecuted for smuggling personal quantities of Viagra into US without a prescription? Please provide reference, I am really interested. Please cite just one case.

But, I agree with Bbond. While I appreciate the reporting of one monger's experiences with respect to their declaring prescriptions and not having any repercussions, I would like to hear of a number of similar experiences, not because I doubt this single experience, but so I can detect a reliable trend that the practice by US Customs is the rule rather than the exception. But, other testimonials are seemingly illusive, which may suggest that the practice may not be a reliable operational guideline at all ports of entry that we all can count on.

There are plenty of blogs and other forums about this subject if you are interested. To me the law is clear and unambiguous that is legal to import personal quantities of Viagra into US (or anywhere) without a prescription. I am comfortable and confident doing it, it is not a big deal to me at all. Clearly you are not convinced, so best that you avoid it. Since you are the type who wants everything guaranteed and spelled out in every detail, clearly it is in your interest to just acquire Viagra through conventional means and not taking risk. Nothing wrong with that, but please don't project your overly cautious advice onto bigger risk takers.

[Member #3453]

[ The reality is, just a few weeks ago, I saw that they completely demolished the flea markets, which used to run between Pino Suarez and Juarez, which is the area that I referred you to. /QUOTE]I have never seen Reforma the way you described it like a flea market and all. It is just like a street now, and the stalls I referred to are in the little walking alleys that run off both sides of the street. Some have like roll-up garage doors? Only folks strolling around that Sunday seemed to be a few families shopping for bargains. I seemed to be the only monger trolling, so the girls at the hotels were pretty agressive for Monterrey, at least in my very limited street trolling experience.

Yeah, I was SHOCKED! Envision about three or four alleyways running between Reforma from Pino Suarez to Juarez, some of the street names had been totally forgotten because they were devoured by the flea market, covered with metal corrugated roofing panels that spanned between the width of Reforma, and several other street names all but obliterated, literally enveloped by the flea market, roofs that leaked like a sieve whenever it rained, hot as blazes in the summer, cold as ice in the winter, smelly, garbage lying in the alleyways at times, etc...

There were hundreds of individual stalls there where the vendors sold Pirated DVD, Clothing, Shoes, Watches, Electronics, Pirated Electronic Games, etc...and, the girls standing outside the formerly totally obscured hotels...even open air style "restaurants," some of which were quite busy and bustling around lunch time with many patrons. There were regular raids in the flea market to curb the pirating of DVDs, CDs, etc...

There were hundreds of small cubicles with roll up doors, similar to what you're seeing installed on the other small stores that front Madero around Juarez.

The City originally moved the flea market district a number of years ago to Reforma in order to push it into obscurity, so as to improve the City's image, hoping the flea market would be so obscure that it would eventually die. Instead of dying, it flourished wildly, while also becoming kind of a "Cesspool Like" shopping haven for the lower classes.

Apparently the City grew impatient with the sales of Pirated Merchandise, as well as becoming disgusted with the blight that was characteristic of the flea market. And, probably even more accurately, they became embarrassed and a little aggravated that their intention to kill it only caused it to flourish and grow. I think they became disgusted with seeing their intentions to kill it backfire.

They took a few tractors, and just completely wiped it out over the course of about 24-48 hours. I guess they thought the only way to get rid of it was to wipe it off the face of the earth, which they did.

Now, those hotels you're seeing that were all but totally obscured by being enveloped by the flea market, have been exposed to the light of day. The girls are standing outside those hotels, or have moved to other hotels in relative close proximity to Reforma, and they are much more visible to street traffic.

The Reforma Flea Market used to be a decent distraction during the day when things were relatively boring, especially on weekends when the clubs with the lunch buffets were closed. It will be a loss to visiting mongers with time on their hands during the day. There are other similar flea markets around, but none that are nearly as large, and none that are so notoriously nasty and simultaneously interesting.

[Larbo]

[ The reality is, just a few weeks ago, I saw that they completely demolished the flea markets, which used to run between Pino Suarez and Juarez, which is the area that I referred you to. /QUOTE]I have never seen Reforma the way you described it like a flea market and all. It is just like a street now, and the stalls I referred to are in the little walking alleys that run off both sides of the street. Some have like roll-up garage doors? Only folks strolling around that Sunday seemed to be a few families shopping for bargains. I seemed to be the only monger trolling, so the girls at the hotels were pretty agressive for Monterrey, at least in my very limited street trolling experience.

[Member #3453]

11 girls in front of the two hotels that showed action. Only one was doable for me

Yeah, those are the dogs standing in front of the big Green Hotel. If you walk down Pino Suarez toward the Cajero, you'll notice several girls that at least have the looks to be doable...just beyond the shoe shine stand.

but I passed because it was 104 degrees, the hotel was not air conditioned, and I'm too old to enjoy sex while sweating like an eskimo in Brazil.

And that is why I am reluctant to patronize even the best looking of them in the summer, even in the event of a dire emergency!.) Like you, I prefer the salida experience, the comfort, the control of the environment, time, payment terms, etc..., and have only actually patronized the door girls twice in ten years.

The reality is, just a few weeks ago, I saw that they completely demolished the flea markets, which used to run between Pino Suarez and Juarez, which is the area that I referred you to. There used to be a small hotel with door girls, usually one or two doable out of 5 or 6, and as you would walk in the flea market, which they apparently very recently demolished, you could gawk longingly at the better looking of them, and it added just a little added ZING to the flea market experience. :-)))